Sources: Nowitzki to opt out of contract

[elindholm]

And to which I responded that it is not Dirk's options i was debating, it is your pointing fingers at Mavs folding but ignoring Suns folding, finding all kind of twisted reasoning.

Okay, I'll write slowly to see if you can follow me:

If...

Nowitzki...

is tired...

of the Mavs...

because they have sucked royally...

in the playoffs...

ever since their Finals collapse...

and show no signs...

of coming out of it...

(comma)

the Suns...

are a good option...

because they need him...

and they don't...

suck in the playoffs...

as much as the Mavs.

(Take a breath.)

If...

Nowitzki...

wants to leave Dallas...

he really...

doesn't have...

a better option...

than Phoenix...

because Phoenix...

has been...

one of the league's...

top five most successful teams...

over the last six years...

INCLUDING the postseason...

and the more successful teams...

have no need...

or money...

for Nowitzki.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Okay, I'll write slowly to see if you can follow me:

If... (edited for brevity's sake)

Nowitzki...

You do know that doesn't rhyme right? I tried putting it to music but the only song I know is the theme from The Beverly Hillbillies and it just didn't work. BTW, I agree.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

If the crux of your argument is that the Suns have underperformed in the playoffs as much as the Mavericks have over the past six years, then I have nothing to say.

Edit: Actually, no, I'll go ahead and write it out.

2005: Suns lose in WCF to Spurs (eventual champions); Mavs lose in second round to Suns
(Series records: Suns 2-1, Mavs 1-1)

2006: Suns lose in WCF to Mavs; Mavs lose in Finals to Heat (champions)
(Cumulative series records: Suns 4-2, Mavs 4-2)

2007: Suns lose in second round to Spurs (eventual champions); Mavs lose in first round to Warriors
(Suns 5-3, Mavs 4-3)

2008: Suns lose in first round to Spurs; Mavs lose in first round to Hornets
(Suns 5-4, Mavs 4-4)

2009: Suns fail to qualify; Mavs lose in second round to Nuggets
(Suns 5-4, Mavs 5-5)

2010: Suns, at worst, lose to Lakers in WCF; Mavs lose in first round to Spurs
(Suns 7-5, Mavs 5-6)

The Suns have won more playoff series than the Mavs over the past six years. So far, two of their four eliminations have come at the hand of the eventual champions, a pattern that is likely to continue this year. Meanwhile, the Mavericks have won one playoff series since their 2006 Finals appearance, while losing to a bunch of no-names.

I don't know how much clearer it can be.

AMEN. It's not even close.

P.S. (to everyone else). How the hell would the Suns sign Dirk with no cap space? Even if Amare opts out, zero cap space. I believe the only scenario would be for the Suns and Mavs both sign those guys to max contracts and trade them to each other. Any other scenario would have you trading almost every good player we have for Dirk. Then you have Nash, Dirk and nobody else on this team. Dallas already tried that.

 

[Mainstreet]

And besides, Nash/Dirk is not a very good combo. Dirk is probably one of the best clutch players but I don't think he fits the system.

I bet Cuban wishes he had kept this combo together. I'd gladly take the Mavs elderly castoff. This way the Suns would have two clutch players.

 

[Cheesewater]

You do know that doesn't rhyme right? I tried putting it to music but the only song I know is the theme from The Beverly Hillbillies and it just didn't work. BTW, I agree.

Steve

Try "Green Acres". It works a little better.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

i say we grant steve nash another ridiculously high extension, get dirk to sign for mid level exception, have nash pay dirk after they retire under the table, win a couple of championships. WHO'S WITH ME?!?

 

[AzStevenCal]

i say we grant steve nash another ridiculously high extension, get dirk to sign for mid level exception, have nash pay dirk after they retire under the table, win a couple of championships. WHO'S WITH ME?!?

Not a bad idea but Stern would tear the team apart when he got wind of it. But, along similar lines, how about each Suns fan agree to give Dirk one dollar a year for the rest of his life in return for accepting the league minimum here. If everyone's game, I'm willing to work as the middle man here, just send me the money and I'll eventually forward it to Dirk.

Steve

 

[SunsTzu]

Even if Amare opts out, zero cap space.

Not necessarily. If Amare opts out and the Suns renounce his rights they would have little over 11mil cap space. If Frye opts out as he stated he would they'd have over 13mil. It's possible Hill would be willing to opt out and re-sign for the minimum if it meant the team could be a contender, if he did the team would have over 16mil cap space(same ball park as the max guys like LeBron/Bosh/Wade could get if they signed out right with another team).


Only way they could offer Dirk the max is if they shifted someone like Barbosa without getting money back. Unlikely any team with cap space would use it to acquire LB but a team that gets a large trade exception from a S&T might be willing to use it on Barbosa.

I honestly don't think the Suns have a realistic shot at any of the big FA even if they create the space. Best they could probably do is David Lee or Scola+another.

 

[boisesuns]

Okay, I'll write slowly to see if you can follow me:

If...

Nowitzki...

is tired...

of the Mavs...

because they have sucked royally...

in the playoffs...

ever since their Finals collapse...

and show no signs...

of coming out of it...

(comma)

the Suns...

are a good option...

because they need him...

and they don't...

suck in the playoffs...

as much as the Mavs.

(Take a breath.)

If...

Nowitzki...

wants to leave Dallas...

he really...

doesn't have...

a better option...

than Phoenix...

because Phoenix...

has been...

one of the league's...

top five most successful teams...

over the last six years...

INCLUDING the postseason...

and the more successful teams...

have no need...

or money...

for Nowitzki.

BIM is going to have a punctuation field day with this one!

 

[Covert Rain]

Not necessarily. If Amare opts out and the Suns renounce his rights they would have little over 11mil cap space. If Frye opts out as he stated he would they'd have over 13mil. It's possible Hill would be willing to opt out and re-sign for the minimum if it meant the team could be a contender, if he did the team would have over 16mil cap space(same ball park as the max guys like LeBron/Bosh/Wade could get if they signed out right with another team).

I have heard the Suns repeat this several times. If the Suns let Amare walk they won't have more than the MLE to spend on a free agent. The MLE should be around $5m to $6m. If Frye opts out they might have around $7M.

Not enough to sign one of the big free agents.

 

[SunsTzu]

I have heard the Suns repeat this several times. If the Suns let Amare walk they won't have more than the MLE to spend on a free agent. The MLE should be around $5m to $6m. If Frye opts out they might have around $7M.

Not enough to sign one of the big free agents.

Projected cap next year 56.1mil. If Amare opts out of his 17,686,100 contract the Suns will only have 45,148,530 committed.

Figures you are citing must include his caphold which the Suns wouldn't have if they renounced his rights. Though if they renounce his rights it will eliminate a S&T or re-signing him.

Edit- To clarify they technically could still re-sign him but they would not be able to offer any more than any other team and would need to clear enough space to do so.

 

[Covert Rain]

Projected cap next year 56.1mil. If Amare opts out of his 17,686,100 contract the Suns will only have 45,148,530 committed.

Figures you are citing must include his caphold which the Suns wouldn't have if they renounced his rights. Though if they renounce his rights it will eliminate a S&T or re-signing him.

I don't think so. Even if Stoudemire left outright, the team would not be guaranteed to have greater-than-MLE-level cap room. I heard an explanation on the radio but I don't recall the details. Maybe it's wrong but if it is multiple sites are reporting it wrong.

It doesn't really matter. Your not going to get a big time free agent for $11 to $12 Million anyway. Let alone a high impact big man to replace Amare that will keep you as a title contender. It won't happen.

Also, Sarver has gone on record saying he doesn't mind spending money if they are a contender. I will guarantee they won't be if Amare leaves and Sarver will not spend that money.

 

[SunsTzu]

It doesn't really matter. Your not going to get a big time free agent for $11 to $12 Million anyway. Let alone a high impact big man to replace Amare. It won't happen.

David Lee will likely be looking at a deal that averages around 10mil. Scola is also a FA who shouldn't command that much. Team likely wouldn't be any better but would remain competitive. I'd probably be more in favor of a complete rebuild but that doesn't seem likely at all whether Amare leaves or not.

 

[Covert Rain]

David Lee will likely be looking at a deal that averages around 10mil. Scola is also a FA who shouldn't command that much. Team likely wouldn't be any better but would remain competitive. I'd probably be more in favor of a complete rebuild but that doesn't seem likely at all whether Amare leaves or not.

David Lee doesn't make you a contender as is a horrible defender. He had a worse opponent per then Amare this year on defense. Scola? Oh boy. There is zero chance Sarver is going to throw 10 million to a player that isn't going to allow you to contend.

If you listened to Sarver's interviews at the trading deadline he made if very clear he is not willing to spend all the Suns cap for a team that has no shot at a title and is competitive. He said the only reason he is doing it now is because he believes that have a shot. When he feels they no longer have a shot, it would be time to move pieces. I took that as cut payroll.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

guys, what it all boils down to is . . .

amare walks this team is done. time for the fire sale.

 

[jibikao]

I have a feeling Dirk is only going to opt out his old contract and get a better contract with Mavs. He is staying with Mavs. Mark my word.

On the other hand, players like Jet could be gone. His mouth killed the games.

 

[az1965]

Okay, I'll write slowly to see if you can follow me:

If...

Nowitzki...

is tired...

of the Mavs...

because they have sucked royally...

in the playoffs...

ever since their Finals collapse...

and show no signs...

of coming out of it...

(comma)

the Suns...

are a good option...

because they need him...

and they don't...

suck in the playoffs...

as much as the Mavs.

(Take a breath.)

If...

Nowitzki...

wants to leave Dallas...

he really...

doesn't have...

a better option...

than Phoenix...

because Phoenix...

has been...

one of the league's...

top five most successful teams...

over the last six years...

INCLUDING the postseason...

and the more successful teams...

have no need...

or money...

for Nowitzki.

Nope... you are deviating from your earlier comments. You just have a big ego to accept you were wrong. If Mavs have been folders in the playoffs, the Suns have been too. Does not matter whether they fold in first round, 2nd round, or conference finals... they have been folding. The data you presented can be used to say, "oh, gee... we have been a better folder than you based on the win/loss or percentages". Got it? May be not... maybe you should print it, zoom it, make a poster, put it in your room and stare at it for several days and, perhaps, you may get it.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If Mavs have been folders in the playoffs, the Suns have been too. Does not matter whether they fold in first round, 2nd round, or conference finals... they have been folding.

I think you're going to have to give us your definition of "folding". I thought you were talking about teams that failed to meet expectations and the degree to which they failed. Neither team has met it's goal to win a championship and anything short of that is a disappointment but not necessarily a "fold". The Mavs have failed to meet expectations to a greater degree than the Suns have, IMO, and I believe that was elindholm's point.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

Nope... you are deviating from your earlier comments. You just have a big ego to accept you were wrong.

Where, exactly, was I wrong? In failing to guess immediately what your customized definition of "folding" is?

If Mavs have been folders in the playoffs, the Suns have been too. Does not matter whether they fold in first round, 2nd round, or conference finals... they have been folding.

I didn't know what definition of "folding" you were using, but once you made it clear, I tried to be more specific about what distinctions I was drawing.

The data you presented can be used to say, "oh, gee... we have been a better folder than you based on the win/loss or percentages". Got it?

Yes, of course I've got it, I know exactly what my data show.

May be not... maybe you should print it, zoom it, make a poster, put it in your room and stare at it for several days and, perhaps, you may get it.

Get what? That you've completely abandoned the question of whether Nowitzki has a better non-Dallas option than Phoenix? What else do you want me to get?

I've already figured out that you're trying to disqualify the Suns as a Nowitzki definition on the basis of their failure to reach the Finals. My point is that your argument is stupid, not that I don't understand it.

 

[SunsTzu]

guys, what it all boils down to is . . .

amare walks this team is done. time for the fire sale.

This is what should happen, but I am confident it won't. They will do what they can to keep the team in playoff contention.

 

[az1965]

Where, exactly, was I wrong? In failing to guess immediately what your customized definition of "folding" is?



I didn't know what definition of "folding" you were using, but once you made it clear, I tried to be more specific about what distinctions I was drawing.



Yes, of course I've got it, I know exactly what my data show.



Get what? That you've completely abandoned the question of whether Nowitzki has a better non-Dallas option than Phoenix? What else do you want me to get?

I've already figured out that you're trying to disqualify the Suns as a Nowitzki definition on the basis of their failure to reach the Finals. My point is that your argument is stupid, not that I don't understand it.

I'm sorry but you are really making stupid arguments... go back and read the original comments. This is what you said:

Originally Posted by elindholm
If Nowitkzi decides that he needs to move on from Dallas -- maybe because that franchise seems doomed to fold in the playoffs every year -- then Phoenix is his best option.

And kept on giving arcanic reasoning to justify your opinions. And, no, you are not getting it. No where I disqualified Nowitzki for Suns. I merely tried to point to error of your thinking where one one hand you pointed a finger at the Mavs calling them playoff folders, while on the other hand Suns have been doing the same. Then YOU came up with your twisted definition of what "folding" is by providing some laughable and utterly useless stats. You called potential Suns teams that won 60+ games as not worthy of winning it all while on the hand refusing to accept that Suns have not folded... sheesh... talk about talking from both sides of the mouth.

No where I implied Nowitzki and Suns combinations is doomed, although I do believe he is soft and will add softness to Suns especially if Amare leaves.

 

[elindholm]

I merely tried to point to error of your thinking where one one hand you pointed a finger at the Mavs calling them playoff folders, while on the other hand Suns have been doing the same.

Yes, and the point is, I disagree with you. I don't think that any team that fails to win the title is automatically a "folder." To me, "folding" means significantly underperforming one's expectations. The Mavericks have done that every time since 2006. In my opinion, the Suns' record is better. Losing to a championship team isn't "folding"; losing as a #1 seed to a #8, or as a #2 to a #7 which subsequently gets swept, is.

We disagree, but it's not because I've made a mistake or don't understand your position, as you keep childishly implying.

 

[az1965]

Yes, and the point is, I disagree with you. I don't think that any team that fails to win the title is automatically a "folder." To me, "folding" means significantly underperforming one's expectations. The Mavericks have done that every time since 2006. In my opinion, the Suns' record is better. Losing to a championship team isn't "folding"; losing as a #1 seed to a #8, or as a #2 to a #7 which subsequently gets swept, is.

We disagree, but it's not because I've made a mistake or don't understand your position, as you keep childishly implying.

Losing to an eventual champion does not necessarily mean you have not folded especially if you are also expected to go all the way... that is a flawed assumption.

We obviously disagree... that is an understatement

 

[elindholm]

We obviously disagree... that is an understatement

If you think that the Suns and Mavericks have displayed comparable degrees of folding over the last six years, then yes, we have a large disagreement. Why don't you try your position out on some non-Mavs fans and see how successfully they contain their mirth.

 

[TJ]

guys, what it all boils down to is . . .

amare walks this team is done. time for the fire sale.

Now now. We all said over the offseason that this team would be irrelevant with all of the changes. We more than exceeded anyone's expectations.

There is nothing out there that says we wont replace Amare with a high caliber free agent if that person expresses interest in our team. Remember that we are now a WCF team and there are players who would love to play in this frenetic offense.

And to address the argument about a big ticket FA moving in with Lebron. In a free agency period loaded with talent, not every player is going to be able to be his wing man. I dont think the Bulls are going to sign LeBron, Bosh, D-Wade, Lee and Nowitzki.

As much as people say the window is closing, I think we have at least one more year of relevancy. We have an emerging center in Lopez, a Benjamin Button point guard with a reliable back up, J-Rich who can step up as the go to man if need be, Clark who I think will emerge once his confidence level shoots up, and a deep bench.

My confidence level for this team has risen immensely. Maybe not to a title, but at least contending for one. IMO, this season was not a fluke.