State of the Team: Arizona Cardinals

[moosehead]

Regardless of the strength behind our opinions, the proof will be in the pudding several months from now. Lots of very strong opinions (one way or the other) will have been proven to be incorrect but I doubt that will hinder many folks' inclination to post opinion as ironclad, this time next year.

 

[Chopper0080]

Wow, I found this refreshingly accurate. Some seem to feel it is depressing, but to me, it looks pretty well reasoned.

We all know we need to upgrade most of the offensive line (or at least get better production), at TE, at OLB and S. What is new here that hasn't already been said. The nice thing is that we will enter a draft that does match up well with some of our needs.

Say we draft Chance Warmack/Jonathan Cooper/Lane Johnson and Zack Ertz in the first two rounds. That upgrades both OL and TE which are positions where players can come in and help right away. Heck, you could replace one of those spots with a S and we have still probably upgraded two spots by day one.

OLB in a 3-4 is never a quick fix, and probably won't be even if we took a guy in round 1. It is a tough transition because of how the college game is set up. This is why it is almost better to draft a player with more atheltic talent after round 1 than a guy who is limited but more polished in the first round. You could argue that this is why Jarvis Jones might drop. Personally, I would rather grab two potential edge rushers after round 1 to develop rather than hanging my hat on one guy who hopefully makes the transition in round 1. This is the potential arguement against drafting Dion Jordan or Damontre Moore in round 1.

What is funny is that despite my tendency to believe in a draft based on value and athletic potential, I would enter this draft with the mindset of drafting lower risk and lower potential players. This is not a draft full of elite talent IMO. Because of this, teams can really go one of two ways in the early rounds. They can either try to find potentially elite players in this less talented group OR they can see the draft for what it is, and grab low risk, 4 year starters who aren't probably ever going to be among the elite players in the league. A draft of Warmack, Ertz and Barrett Jones in the first 3 rounds isn't sexy, but it is low risk, and potentially fills 3 need positions (for us) for the next 4 years.

Consider our team entering the 2014 offseason with upgrades at OG, C, and TE which I don't feel is outside the realm of possibility when you are speculating on Warmack, Jones and Ertz being better than Snyder, Sendlein and King. I understand it is a strech to believe that all 3 will work out, but in terms of the draft, these three players are pretty low risk and play positions with relatively low learning curves. This sets us up for the 2014 offseason needing to upgrade at QB, RB, LT, OG, SILB, OLB, CB and S. A much more manageble list than QB, RB, TE, LT, LG, C, RG, SILB, OLB, CB, CB, S and S which we had this year (after we cut our safeties).

 

[Arizona_Steve]

Need more boat analogies...

 

[Mulli]

Need more boat analogies...

We're going to need a bigger boat.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I disagree with this. The problem with Colledge and Snyder isn't that they suck, it's that they're not elite. The problem with the offensive line isn't that they have no players, it's that they have no players who you know are going to be able to win one-on-one battles. That's the problem.

I disagree that this draft is going to yield immediate offensive line starters in the 2nd or 3rd round. Is D.J. Fluker going to be an immediate starter at left tackle? Is he even going to be an upgrade over Massie immediately or in the long term at right tackle? I don't believe so.

I don't think this is going to be a "bad football team" if Carson Palmer can stay healthy. If Palmer plays in 14 games or more, this is going to be an average football team. There are too many veteran players on both sides of the football to be bad. If you have a solid QB, it's really hard to be a bad football team.

With Palmer upright and even with the offensive line starters and depth we have right now, and anticipating two steps back on defense, it's difficult for me to believe this team would lose more than 10 games.

Hmmm ok

Well gutting the strength of the team doesnt bode well in my book. Who knows what we can expect from this defense with new starters and a brand new secondary and DWash being out the first 4 games. Oh, and with a new DC

That doesnt exactly fill me with confidence.

The offensive line can easily be fixed with a combination of guards drfated in the 2-5 th rounds. Im not looking for an elite LT (and neither should you based on Arians comments re Brown) and there are plenty of solid guys in the later rounds who could come in and contribute. (Cooper, Warford, pugh, Thomas, etc).

Carson Palmer is going to have the same issue every other QB has had: not enough time to make a read and throw the football. Thats not going to be fixed by drafting a guard in the 1st round.

What the big unknown is, is can coaching really make a difference on the offensive line? Is Scheme more important than talent? Is a unit more important than the individual. If those are answered in the positive, then Ill buy your arguement....I just dont see it..

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Say we draft Chance Warmack/Jonathan Cooper/Lane Johnson and Zack Ertz in the first two rounds. That upgrades both OL and TE which are positions where players can come in and help right away. Heck, you could replace one of those spots with a S and we have still probably upgraded two spots by day one.

OLB in a 3-4 is never a quick fix, and probably won't be even if we took a guy in round 1. It is a tough transition because of how the college game is set up. This is why it is almost better to draft a player with more atheltic talent after round 1 than a guy who is limited but more polished in the first round. You could argue that this is why Jarvis Jones might drop. Personally, I would rather grab two potential edge rushers after round 1 to develop rather than hanging my hat on one guy who hopefully makes the transition in round 1. This is the potential arguement against drafting Dion Jordan or Damontre Moore in round 1.

What is funny is that despite my tendency to believe in a draft based on value and athletic potential, I would enter this draft with the mindset of drafting lower risk and lower potential players. This is not a draft full of elite talent IMO. Because of this, teams can really go one of two ways in the early rounds. They can either try to find potentially elite players in this less talented group OR they can see the draft for what it is, and grab low risk, 4 year starters who aren't probably ever going to be among the elite players in the league. A draft of Warmack, Ertz and Barrett Jones in the first 3 rounds isn't sexy, but it is low risk, and potentially fills 3 need positions (for us) for the next 4 years.

Consider our team entering the 2014 offseason with upgrades at OG, C, and TE which I don't feel is outside the realm of possibility when you are speculating on Warmack, Jones and Ertz being better than Snyder, Sendlein and King. I understand it is a strech to believe that all 3 will work out, but in terms of the draft, these three players are pretty low risk and play positions with relatively low learning curves. This sets us up for the 2014 offseason needing to upgrade at QB, RB, LT, OG, SILB, OLB, CB and S. A much more manageble list than QB, RB, TE, LT, LG, C, RG, SILB, OLB, CB, CB, S and S which we had this year (after we cut our safeties).

Sounds good to me, from your mouth to Keim's ears. (although while I'm intrigued by Johnson, I'd prefer to get Warmack, run out Brown/Colledge/Snyder/Warmack/Massie for continuity sake and because I know Warmack is a beast) I really think that would be at worst an average OL and a massive upgrade from last year.

 

[kerouac9]

Hmmm ok

Well gutting the strength of the team doesnt bode well in my book. Who knows what we can expect from this defense with new starters and a brand new secondary and DWash being out the first 4 games. Oh, and with a new DC

That doesnt exactly fill me with confidence.

The offensive line can easily be fixed with a combination of guards drfated in the 2-5 th rounds. Im not looking for an elite LT (and neither should you based on Arians comments re Brown) and there are plenty of solid guys in the later rounds who could come in and contribute. (Cooper, Warford, pugh, Thomas, etc).

Carson Palmer is going to have the same issue every other QB has had: not enough time to make a read and throw the football. Thats not going to be fixed by drafting a guard in the 1st round.

What the big unknown is, is can coaching really make a difference on the offensive line? Is Scheme more important than talent? Is a unit more important than the individual. If those are answered in the positive, then Ill buy your arguement....I just dont see it..

Right. But our defense was near-elite last season. They can fall back to earth under inferior leadership (and with help from the draft--I think that you will be able to pull an immediate starter in rounds 2 and 3 at safety, only in part because Bell and Johnson are so underwhelming) and you'll still be on pretty solid footing.

The problem was the offense, particularly the guy under center. Last year, we had a guy who could complete passes but got sacked all the time, and two guys who didn't get sacked as frequently but couldn't complete passes. Palmer isn't a Franchise quarterback, but if he can operate in the pocket at least as well as Skelton and Lindley (and after watching tape, I have little doubt that he can), then we're looking at an offense that should be able to rank in the 12-22 range among the rest of the league.

There was time for Lindley and Skelton to throw; they just couldn't identify the open man, much less deliver the ball to him.

If you think that Jonathan Cooper is going to be available after pick 25 in this draft, you're going to be in for a surprise two weeks from today.

As for the OL options in rounds 2 and 3, I think you need to take a closer look at this draft class. Looking at The Huddle Report's Value Board update this week, there are only 6 offensive linemen rated between 32 and 74, and Larry Warford is probably not a system fit if we're going to continue to pull interior offensive linemen in the running game. Do you really think that Terron Armstead of Arkansas Pine Bluff is going to come in and play at a high level?

The long and short of it for me is that I don't think a guard drafted after Kyle Long (Oregon) is going to be an upgrade over what we have right now, and what we need is to get an elite player on the OL that makes it easier to accommodate the rest of the average talent that we have.

 

[kerouac9]

I've been thinking more and more that, with this draft class, if we can't depend on Demontre Moore falling to us at the top of the 2nd round, we should just take Dion Jordan or Barkevious Mingo. I think that both those guys are high enough risk/reward propositions and as big an upgrade over what we have as going from Colledge to Warmack.

We HAVE to improve on the offensive line right away, and I don't think that Terron Armstead gets the job done. Maybe he does. But if we feel that Long isn't going to make it to our second-round pick, we need to choose the top guy from Joekel/Fisher/Johnson/Warmack/Cooper, and then see what shakes out in the second. If we're confident that an immediate offensive line starter is available in the 2nd round, and that a guy like Travis Kelce can contribute in the third round from the TE position, then let's get a rush linebacker.

 

[Chopper0080]

Right. But our defense was near-elite last season. They can fall back to earth under inferior leadership (and with help from the draft--I think that you will be able to pull an immediate starter in rounds 2 and 3 at safety, only in part because Bell and Johnson are so underwhelming) and you'll still be on pretty solid footing.

The problem was the offense, particularly the guy under center. Last year, we had a guy who could complete passes but got sacked all the time, and two guys who didn't get sacked as frequently but couldn't complete passes. Palmer isn't a Franchise quarterback, but if he can operate in the pocket at least as well as Skelton and Lindley (and after watching tape, I have little doubt that he can), then we're looking at an offense that should be able to rank in the 12-22 range among the rest of the league.

There was time for Lindley and Skelton to throw; they just couldn't identify the open man, much less deliver the ball to him.

If you think that Jonathan Cooper is going to be available after pick 25 in this draft, you're going to be in for a surprise two weeks from today.

As for the OL options in rounds 2 and 3, I think you need to take a closer look at this draft class. Looking at The Huddle Report's Value Board update this week, there are only 6 offensive linemen rated between 32 and 74, and Larry Warford is probably not a system fit if we're going to continue to pull interior offensive linemen in the running game. Do you really think that Terron Armstead of Arkansas Pine Bluff is going to come in and play at a high level?

The long and short of it for me is that I don't think a guard drafted after Kyle Long (Oregon) is going to be an upgrade over what we have right now, and what we need is to get an elite player on the OL that makes it easier to accommodate the rest of the average talent that we have.

Agreed. I can't say that their are too many OL prospects that I am confident taking at #38. Maybe Warford or Barrett Jones, but I will pass on Dj Fluker (if he fell), Menelik Watson, Kyle Long, Travis Frederick, Terron Armstead, Justin Pugh, and David Bakhtiari at #38. At #69 however, the options are wide open and I wouldn't be shocked if we took David Quessenberry there.

 

[MadCardDisease]

I've been thinking more and more that, with this draft class, if we can't depend on Demontre Moore falling to us at the top of the 2nd round, we should just take Dion Jordan or Barkevious Mingo. I think that both those guys are high enough risk/reward propositions and as big an upgrade over what we have as going from Colledge to Warmack.

We HAVE to improve on the offensive line right away, and I don't think that Terron Armstead gets the job done. Maybe he does. But if we feel that Long isn't going to make it to our second-round pick, we need to choose the top guy from Joekel/Fisher/Johnson/Warmack/Cooper, and then see what shakes out in the second. If we're confident that an immediate offensive line starter is available in the 2nd round, and that a guy like Travis Kelce can contribute in the third round from the TE position, then let's get a rush linebacker.

I think it will be Lane Johnson. Joekel and Fisher most likely will be gone. It's too early to draft a pure guard. The Pass Rushers all have potential but could easily struggle in the NFL. Johnson is versatile and a freak atheletically for a big guy. The way he showed up during Senior Bowl week really sold me on him. Johnson would be the safest smartest pick for the Cardinals IMO.

 

[Catfish]

I think you're projecting because I provided the link. This team was 5-11 for a reason.

EVERYONE is getting help in the draft. A rising tide lifts all boats, but lifts them all equally.

Not at all. This was a well written article, and they gave credit to the FO for bringing in decent FA's. I simply believe that, for a change, we seem poised to get help from the draft where we need it most, (OL, pass rusher, safety). We might just rise a little more than what the average team does on this tide. I don't recall any recent drafts where we seem to be as ready to take full advantage of the strength of the draft. I certainly hope that we do so.

 

[Chopper0080]

I've been thinking more and more that, with this draft class, if we can't depend on Demontre Moore falling to us at the top of the 2nd round, we should just take Dion Jordan or Barkevious Mingo. I think that both those guys are high enough risk/reward propositions and as big an upgrade over what we have as going from Colledge to Warmack.

We HAVE to improve on the offensive line right away, and I don't think that Terron Armstead gets the job done. Maybe he does. But if we feel that Long isn't going to make it to our second-round pick, we need to choose the top guy from Joekel/Fisher/Johnson/Warmack/Cooper, and then see what shakes out in the second. If we're confident that an immediate offensive line starter is available in the 2nd round, and that a guy like Travis Kelce can contribute in the third round from the TE position, then let's get a rush linebacker.

That has been my stance for awhile now. To the second part, I just don't see how any GM would be confident regarding finding an immediate starter after round one in this draft with the exception of Travis Frederick, Barrett Jones and Larry Warford. Consider that two of those are C's and only one (Jones) is ideal for a hybrid blocking system. All of the other prospects come with significant question marks depite also having very good potential.

 

[Catfish]

I've been thinking more and more that, with this draft class, if we can't depend on Demontre Moore falling to us at the top of the 2nd round, we should just take Dion Jordan or Barkevious Mingo. I think that both those guys are high enough risk/reward propositions and as big an upgrade over what we have as going from Colledge to Warmack.

We HAVE to improve on the offensive line right away, and I don't think that Terron Armstead gets the job done. Maybe he does. But if we feel that Long isn't going to make it to our second-round pick, we need to choose the top guy from Joekel/Fisher/Johnson/Warmack/Cooper, and then see what shakes out in the second. If we're confident that an immediate offensive line starter is available in the 2nd round, and that a guy like Travis Kelce can contribute in the third round from the TE position, then let's get a rush linebacker.

Agreed. I believe that Warmack or Cooper will be the pick for us in the first. Not saying we will stay at #7, but that this is the safest way we could approach this draft.

Question. Say we take one of these two in the first round, what are your thoughts on taking Arthur Brown in the second? I know a lot of people say he is undersized, (but didn't they say the same about D-Wash when we drafted him)? When I watch tape on this kid, he just seems to be where he should be nearly every play. He is non-stop, and tough, and finds ways to get to the ball. Your thoughts?

 

[desertdawg]

Considering we just got Palmer, and considering we plan on running the ball, we are going to take us a fattie in the first if one is there and I think there will be. I'm still on the Warwagon, if he is there it's a no brainer. I understand Arians is cool with the 2 tight ends and so am I, but you can't get stuck running that formation all year to make up for the O-line's weakness. That formation can be utilized better when the time calls for it, and we've had the worst O-line for the last three years yada yada, hired 900 O-line coaches..

Carson Palmer will need and was most probably promised protection this year. I agree our D will not be what it was last year, but I hope we do stay with the high pressure small cushion thing we had going. A pass rusher would definitely help us out on that note but if Carson doesn't have time to get the ball out than all bets are noll and void.

I doubt teams will jump the line to get ahead of us for the big boy competition, so I'm hoping we get a giant HOFer.

 

[kerouac9]

I think it will be Lane Johnson. Joekel and Fisher most likely will be gone. It's too early to draft a pure guard. The Pass Rushers all have potential but could easily struggle in the NFL. Johnson is versatile and a freak atheletically for a big guy. The way he showed up during Senior Bowl week really sold me on him. Johnson would be the safest smartest pick for the Cardinals IMO.

I'm almost certain that it's going to be Lane Johnson.

Agreed. I believe that Warmack or Cooper will be the pick for us in the first. Not saying we will stay at #7, but that this is the safest way we could approach this draft.

Question. Say we take one of these two in the first round, what are your thoughts on taking Arthur Brown in the second? I know a lot of people say he is undersized, (but didn't they say the same about D-Wash when we drafted him)? When I watch tape on this kid, he just seems to be where he should be nearly every play. He is non-stop, and tough, and finds ways to get to the ball. Your thoughts?

To play what position? I don't think we need another inside linebacker, at least, not at that high a price, and with other needs all around. I don't think he's a fit at rush linebacker. I haven't seen him bull-rush an opposing offensive lineman.

 

[JeffGollin]

I've been thinking more and more that, with this draft class, if we can't depend on Demontre Moore falling to us at the top of the 2nd round, we should just take Dion Jordan or Barkevious Mingo. I think that both those guys are high enough risk/reward propositions and as big an upgrade over what we have as going from Colledge to Warmack.

We HAVE to improve on the offensive line right away, and I don't think that Terron Armstead gets the job done. Maybe he does. But if we feel that Long isn't going to make it to our second-round pick, we need to choose the top guy from Joekel/Fisher/Johnson/Warmack/Cooper, and then see what shakes out in the second. If we're confident that an immediate offensive line starter is available in the 2nd round, and that a guy like Travis Kelce can contribute in the third round from the TE position, then let's get a rush linebacker.

I think many of us sense the scarcity of quality pass rushers and are talking ourselves into believing the O-line is really OK as-is. I think this would be a mistake.

 

[DoTheDew]

and considering we plan on running the ball,

Hopefully BA doesn't pass as much as he did with the Colts last year.

 

[desertdawg]

Hopefully BA doesn't pass as much as he did with the Colts last year.

As long as Whiz is running something some where, we will not be last in the running game. I think Arians plans to bring more balance than what we had, it would be pretty darn hard not too. Pass happy coaches are in right now, but Whiz just didn't run the ball period. Getting that rush going will open it up down field, I think Arians will run a lot of play action and all, but even then you have to run it a percentage of times for that to work.

 

[kerouac9]

As long as Whiz is running something some where, we will not be last in the running game. I think Arians plans to bring more balance than what we had, it would be pretty darn hard not too. Pass happy coaches are in right now, but Whiz just didn't run the ball period. Getting that rush going will open it up down field, I think Arians will run a lot of play action and all, but even then you have to run it a percentage of times for that to work.

I dunno. The Colts had more than 630 pass attempts last year. That was Arians unrestrained by any head coach, with a rookie quarterback, and a terrible offensive line.

We could have games where the total number of non-quarterback rushes is in the single digits. When the Colts played the Jets last year, Indy rushed the ball just 13 times.

 

[Russ Smith]

Look: Every team is going to have a draft in two weeks. 31 teams are going to have first-round picks, and another 30 or so are going to have 2nd round picks.

Everyone is going to walk away from the draft saying "Man, we got exactly what we wanted and needed. We're exactly where we expected to be."

To ASSUME that the Cards are going to be much better off, or even better off at all, than the rest of the NFL following the draft is an assumption without evidence.

How much help was on the way from the 2012 draft? One where Steve Keim was still the super-scout?

That's just not true and you know it. Half of them will walk away saying the guy they picked in the 3rd round was a first rounder on their board and the guy they took with the 2nd round pick was the other guy they nearly took with their first round pick.

 

[Russ Smith]

Meanwhile, Oakland is still waiting to be undocked.

Oakland tied their boat up incorrectly so when the tide rose it sunk them.

 

[ndhillst]

Oakland tied their boat up incorrectly so when the tide rose it sunk them.

They also paid to much for it and now can't afford to fix it.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

This is why I am ok taking the RIGHT pass rusher at #7. Because I too expect our defense to regress (although I would argue with the elite tag K9 gave) but if we get a dynamic pass rusher we could be not only just as good but better. A 10-12 sack guy as a rookie will make everyone better.

I want OL picks but believe A) the coaching will be better and B) there will be vets to have on the cheap after the draft so if we dont have a guy we LOVE at #7 (Whether its Fisher, Warmack, or Johnson - they just got to be right) then go pass rusher.

I am pretty sure the coaching on the defense will not be as good, so lets get someone dynamic in the pass rush as that will be huge. X's and O's are great but they dont beat out having superior Jimmys and Joes.

I dont see anyway we lose 10 games next year unless BA is just an atrocious in game coach. That ship has sailed. To San Diego

 

[desertdawg]

I dunno. The Colts had more than 630 pass attempts last year. That was Arians unrestrained by any head coach, with a rookie quarterback, and a terrible offensive line.

We could have games where the total number of non-quarterback rushes is in the single digits. When the Colts played the Jets last year, Indy rushed the ball just 13 times.

True that, Arians is going to sling it around at a high rate but he aint touching Whiz homie. Whiz has Rivers now, San Diego will be lucky to run the ball 13 a game average. , but at the same time .

 

[Catfish]

I'm almost certain that it's going to be Lane Johnson.



To play what position? I don't think we need another inside linebacker, at least, not at that high a price, and with other needs all around. I don't think he's a fit at rush linebacker. I haven't seen him bull-rush an opposing offensive lineman.

K-9, this was about Arthur Brown. The position is OLB, not inside, and he is more a speed merchant than a power guy. His game savvy and instincts are such that he often is already moving towards where the ball is going BEFORE the QB completes taking the snap. He uses his hands well to brush away larger linemen. The experts list him as a 'can't miss' in the NFL, and some have him being taken by the Vikings at #25. I believe that he will go later though, because of his small size. I am not sure he makes it to 38 however. If he is there at #38, I believe we will give him some serious consideration. He is a run stopper par excellent, and his blitz's get him to the QB with great speed. I believe that he and D-Wash paired outside/inside would make a formidable pair to try and corral.