State Of The Team

[Solar7]

Any proof of an expert right now, not ranking DJ even in the top ten? PFF does, and it mirrors what we saw last year. DJ is probably the best LT the Cardinals have had since they came to Arizona, and I don't even see how you can argue that




Awesome. Be negative JUST because being negative in the past was right.

You were so epically wrong about Murray/Rosen/Bosa.




They don't have a young QB anymore. No good young Wars really. Their offensive line is talent bare outside of Corbett. You have rose colored glasses for our opponents. The Rams lost to the JETS last year. They still have their number, but the Seahawks used to as well.

The Rams defense continues to lose good young talent every year.




You vastly overrate Stafford. Despite his talent he has never been a guy who elevates his team. There has been years where the Packers have had comparable team talent to the Lions, and Rodgers was the difference. It's a massive gamble that Stafford will be better than Goff and if it doesn't work out it will probably be the McVay/Snead regime undoing.

When I'm at a computer I'll look for tackle rankings, but I doubt we'll see anything until we're close to the season.

And yes, I'm going to be negative until they prove me wrong. It's a whole hell of a lot better than puking sunshine and rainbows about the team only to be epically disappointed when the team takes the field. Sure, I was wrong about Murray/Rosen, but as a whole, we still don't have a playoff appearance, and I've been right about most everything else. Trust me, it's no fun to dislike the current state of the team so much, I desperately wish we could be good. I dedicate like 11 hours of my day to football on Sundays in the fall, I'd love going back to being able to look forward to something besides my fantasy team.

The Rams are still going to put out a vastly younger team than ours next year, with a strong offense, strong defense, and most importantly, competent coaching. We're running out one year of a 2015 throwback club with QB who will yet again be asked to play miracle ball to even have a chance.

Stafford sure isn't Rodgers, but he's a lot better than Goff. They'll comfortably make the playoffs barring major unforeseen injuries, we'll be lucky to get 3rd place.

 

[Gandhi]

Yup I agree. This is a weakness of their system. Although I imagine over a season it evens itself out. It's not great at factoring explosive plays such as a game winning pick 6 or a great 60 yard TD run. The same is in reverse though, it doesn't over grade the massive whiff that leads to a TD or the blown coverage that loses the game.

Maybe you are right that it evens itself out, but then why is it even used before the season has ended?

Regarding the "It doesn't matter if they grade good players well, thats easy" I don't see how. They are grading the play, not the player. If Kelce makes a bad block he gets scored the same way Dan Arnold does if he makes a bad block.

My point is that it doesn’t show anything if they can tell that the best players in the NFL is good. You mentioned it as an example of why it doesn’t make sense to criticize them based on that they don’t know the playcall, and my argue was that I too can tell that Kelce makes most things right, even though I don’t know the playcall. It doesn’t prove anything to me.

If their grades are closely resembling what we see then they are doing something right. It's not perfect, I'm not even trying to stan for PFF. It's a tool that has it's merits. I just don't agree with the "It sucks they don't know whats happening" crowd.

Yes, I agree. You and I are not professional either, but that doesn’t mean we cannot have correct observations of the game. So yes, there is certainly some truth in their analysis´. But at the same time, the same is the biggest reason for my skepticism, because many outside factors can affect how a play goes, and you and I cannot judge all those factors for every player in every game, and especially not without any context. So how do you know when PFF’s analysis’ are correct? It is like roulette. Sometimes you guess correct and sometimes you don’t. Coupled with what Belichick mentioned, to me, that makes their analyses unreliable and useless.

 

[BritCard]

My point is that it doesn’t show anything if they can tell that the best players in the NFL is good. You mentioned it as an example of why it doesn’t make sense to criticize them based on that they don’t know the playcall, and my argue was that I too can tell that Kelce makes most things right, even though I don’t know the playcall. It doesn’t prove anything to me.

I'm not a fan of the "they don't know the plays" argument.

Firstly, the vast majority of plays are not complicated. On a running play the average person can see that this lineman was supposed to block this guy, this WR was supposed to block this CB etc. The vast majority of plays are not difficult to decipher.

Second, these guys are watching hundreds of plays every week. Just for a single Cardinals game your looking at 65 plays x 11 players and each graded by 3 guys. And this is every week. When your watching that much film over time you are going to pick up on what the play was "This is the same play they ran in Q2 against the Bengals in week 4". So what you don't get first time you learn.

Are they going to be 100%? No. But I reckon they are in the 95%+ range.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm not a fan of the "they don't know the plays" argument.

Firstly, the vast majority of plays are not complicated. On a running play the average person can see that this lineman was supposed to block this guy, this WR was supposed to block this CB etc. The vast majority of plays are not difficult to decipher.

Second, these guys are watching hundreds of plays every week. Just for a single Cardinals game your looking at 65 plays x 11 players and each graded by 3 guys. And this is every week. When your watching that much film over time you are going to pick up on what the play was "This is the same play they ran in Q2 against the Bengals in week 4". So what you don't get first time you learn.

Are they going to be 100%? No. But I reckon they are in the 95%+ range.

Assertion without evidence. These guys are grading 11 players at a time and turn the grades around in—what?—48 hours? Maybe less? Very unlikely they have time to take that holistic view of even a single play, much less retain that information for weeks or months.

Even on a running play, a combo block can be “lost” by either the center or the guard (say) — the play gets blown up in the backfield but one of those guys could’ve had a negative grade when he did his job scraping up to the second level.

Anyway, the original assertion that the NFL relies these grades was so quickly abandoned it is hilarious.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

How is that ridiculous

11-5
13-3
9-7
10-6

6 playoff games

Super bowl appearance

lose his job if stafford doesn’t work out. Sorry Shane, I’m laughing at that concept.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

How much is a numerical indicator of performance that recorded over time vs what people see with their eyes, all the inherent biases we contain and our inability to accurately remember what happened 2 weeks ago?

I mean, there are guys who think most ASU players should be starting in the NFL.

Those guys are stupid and don’t hold professional football jobs.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah I don't see how if Stafford fails, that their jobs WON'T be in jeopardy.

The Rams have little room under the cap few premium draft picks and some looming roster issues.

As great as Snead did for a few seasons, his magic touch is starting to wear off a bit, and he doesn't have a Russell Wilson to make chicken salad out of chicken ****.

Snead could be under the gun but I’d be shocked if Mcvay would be. They came off years of mediocrity before him.

 

[Shane]

11-5
13-3
9-7
10-6

6 playoff games

Super bowl appearance

lose his job if stafford doesn’t work out. Sorry Shane, I’m laughing at that concept.

ehhh The NFL is the ultimate what have you done for me lately profession… You can certainly bet that McVay signed off on the trade. Saying Stafford is his final piece of the puzzle. You can bet he was in the owners ear telling him that’s what he needs to win a Super Bowl... if it blows up in his face as well as the GM’s I have little doubt he’ll be on a hot seat at a minimum and yes at risk of being fired. to me to think otherwise is equally laughable.

 

[Cheesebeef]

11-5
13-3
9-7
10-6

6 playoff games

Super bowl appearance

lose his job if stafford doesn’t work out. Sorry Shane, I’m laughing at that concept.

same. A coach like that gets multiple bites at the Apple (aka QB) with a baseline of success like that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

ehhh The NFL is the ultimate what have you done for me lately profession… You can certainly bet that McVay signed off on the trade. Saying Stafford is his final piece of the puzzle. You can bet he was in the owners ear telling him that’s what he needs to win a Super Bowl... if it blows up in his face as well as the GM’s I have little doubt he’ll be on a hot seat at a minimum and yes at risk of being fired. to me to think otherwise is equally laughable.

Well I guess we are laughing at each other! So be it.

 

[Gandhi]

I'm not a fan of the "they don't know the plays" argument.

That is fair. I am going to trust the most succesful head coach in NFL history over an opinion maker-service.

 

[BritCard]

That is fair. I am going to trust the most succesful head coach in NFL history over an opinion maker-service.

BB didn't say they don't know the plays. He pointed out a single example of how it might be difficult in some instances for PFF to know exactly which guy had responsibility. I agree.

But on the vast, vast majority of plays that's not the case.

 

[Gandhi]

BB didn't say they don't know the plays. He pointed out a single example of how it might be difficult in some instances for PFF to know exactly which guy had responsibility. I agree.

But on the vast, vast majority of plays that's not the case.

"I know from our team, there are times when we don’t know exactly what went wrong until we sort out the play,” Belichick said on WEEI. “So it’s impossible someone else could have known. Sometimes what it looks like is not what it is.”

I don't know how you get to that conclusion, or for that matter that you are able to predict that he is talking about the vast minority of plays, but okay, I guess we just read it differently.

 

[BritCard]

"I know from our team, there are times when we don’t know exactly what went wrong until we sort out the play,” Belichick said on WEEI. “So it’s impossible someone else could have known. Sometimes what it looks like is not what it is.”

I don't know how you get to that conclusion, or for that matter that you are able to predict that he is talking about the vast minority of plays, but okay, I guess we just read it differently.

"There are times" suggests a infrequently. If it was frequent he would say "often".

 

[Krangodnzr]

When I'm at a computer I'll look for tackle rankings, but I doubt we'll see anything until we're close to the season.

And yes, I'm going to be negative until they prove me wrong. It's a whole hell of a lot better than puking sunshine and rainbows about the team only to be epically disappointed when the team takes the field. Sure, I was wrong about Murray/Rosen, but as a whole, we still don't have a playoff appearance, and I've been right about most everything else. Trust me, it's no fun to dislike the current state of the team so much, I desperately wish we could be good. I dedicate like 11 hours of my day to football on Sundays in the fall, I'd love going back to being able to look forward to something besides my fantasy team.

The Rams are still going to put out a vastly younger team than ours next year, with a strong offense, strong defense, and most importantly, competent coaching. We're running out one year of a 2015 throwback club with QB who will yet again be asked to play miracle ball to even have a chance.

Stafford sure isn't Rodgers, but he's a lot better than Goff. They'll comfortably make the playoffs barring major unforeseen injuries, we'll be lucky to get 3rd place.

So you'll punt on th DJ claim then? I mean it's not that hard...go through the list of tackles and tell me WHO is better. In the NFC, clearly Baktiari and Williams are better and that's pretty much it, and Williams is getting older.

As far as the playoff thing, they BARELY missed the playoffs and showed vast improvement. You didn't think they would be in the playoff hunt for most the season and I did. You were wrong.

Vastly younger? That's just not really truly. They are, on average, like 1 year younger as a team, and they arent young at the second most important offensive position, left tackle. They are also pretty much in cap hell and will lose any good free agent next season and will probably have let go of Robert Wood or Cooper Kupp soon.

Stafford is better than Kupp based on? QB rating? Nope Goff is better. You can say Stafford was hamstrung by the Lions but there are many examples of good QBs on bad teams elevating the team around them which Stafford never did.

As I've stated elsewhere, I think the Cardinals as they are currently constructed can win this year, but they aren't constructed to win for long. Keim's approach of going for it when he should blow things up and rebuild put the Cardinals in this predicament in the first place. That and his consistent misses in the draft. He hasn't been bad on trades and free agency overall, but both of those means are more expensive to build a roster with.

 

[WisconsinCard]

"There are times" suggests a infrequently. If it was frequent he would say "often".

He also is talkng about his own team, where he knows the call. So if there are even a few plays they have to break down to figure it out. Then he suggested that it is impossible for someone else to figure out out. I would say BB is saying don't take their word as gospel. The way i take it is at best 50/50.

 

[GatorAZ]

You raise some valid points. But if you think a stafford failure is going to result in McVay’s job being in jeopardy I can only laugh. That’s a ridiculous statement.

Shhhhhh let’s hope he’s available

 

[Gandhi]

"There are times" suggests a infrequently. If it was frequent he would say "often".

Its fine. If you seriously want to reaffirm to yourself that PFF can be trusted by downgrading facts and taking a pure guess on how the sensei of coaching might or might not phrase variations of “more than one,” then it doesn’t make much sense to go on with the debate. It is what it is.

 

[Solar7]

So you'll punt on th DJ claim then? I mean it's not that hard...go through the list of tackles and tell me WHO is better. In the NFC, clearly Baktiari and Williams are better and that's pretty much it, and Williams is getting older.

As far as the playoff thing, they BARELY missed the playoffs and showed vast improvement. You didn't think they would be in the playoff hunt for most the season and I did. You were wrong.

Vastly younger? That's just not really truly. They are, on average, like 1 year younger as a team, and they arent young at the second most important offensive position, left tackle. They are also pretty much in cap hell and will lose any good free agent next season and will probably have let go of Robert Wood or Cooper Kupp soon.

Stafford is better than Kupp based on? QB rating? Nope Goff is better. You can say Stafford was hamstrung by the Lions but there are many examples of good QBs on bad teams elevating the team around them which Stafford never did.

As I've stated elsewhere, I think the Cardinals as they are currently constructed can win this year, but they aren't constructed to win for long. Keim's approach of going for it when he should blow things up and rebuild put the Cardinals in this predicament in the first place. That and his consistent misses in the draft. He hasn't been bad on trades and free agency overall, but both of those means are more expensive to build a roster with.

I'll punt on the DJ claim for now, but yes, I feel many tackles in this league are both better and higher regarded. I don't mean to trash DJ though, he's the last of my worries on this team.

Yeah, I guess it was nice being in the playoff "hunt," but crumbling down the stretch when it became apparent we couldn't do anything at all with Murray not at 100%.

The Rams have less players over 30 than we signed this offseason, so it's absolutely true. We also have multiple position groups we have next to 0 players at next offseason. Next offseason we're scheduled to need to find tons of starters (CB, RB, OLB, G, maybe WR, RT).

It's ridiculous to not think Stafford is better than Goff. Stafford's put up better individual season marks than literally anything Goff has done, with a mess around him most of the time.

At least the end of your post I completely agree with. We're not going to a Super Bowl with this roster or strategy. We're well behind the curve when it comes to any hope of long term success. Fire the man. I don't want to look to free agency every single year as a chance to completely rebuild the roster, I want to feel like we have a chance every year like the stereotypically successful teams who only need a few bounces their way to have playoff success, not just a few bounces to go their way to maybe have a chance to be a wild card.

 

[oaken1]

So you'll punt on th DJ claim then? I mean it's not that hard...go through the list of tackles and tell me WHO is better. In the NFC, clearly Baktiari and Williams are better and that's pretty much it, and Williams is getting older.

As far as the playoff thing, they BARELY missed the playoffs and showed vast improvement. You didn't think they would be in the playoff hunt for most the season and I did. You were wrong.

Vastly younger? That's just not really truly. They are, on average, like 1 year younger as a team, and they arent young at the second most important offensive position, left tackle. They are also pretty much in cap hell and will lose any good free agent next season and will probably have let go of Robert Wood or Cooper Kupp soon.

Stafford is better than Kupp based on? QB rating? Nope Goff is better. You can say Stafford was hamstrung by the Lions but there are many examples of good QBs on bad teams elevating the team around them which Stafford never did.

As I've stated elsewhere, I think the Cardinals as they are currently constructed can win this year, but they aren't constructed to win for long. Keim's approach of going for it when he should blow things up and rebuild put the Cardinals in this predicament in the first place. That and his consistent misses in the draft. He hasn't been bad on trades and free agency overall, but both of those means are more expensive to build a roster with.

Yeah.....
I think Stafford brings a gunslingers mentality and a more aggressive form of leadership to the Rams....
Mcvay is gambling that those changes can make a positive difference

but as far as the ax’s and O’s go stafford and Goff are pretty much a wash

 

[BritCard]

Stafford is a much better QB than Goff and it's not even remotely close.

It's like comparing Matt Ryan with Sam Darnold.

 

[DVontel]

Stafford is better than Goff by a good distance.


Stafford isn’t also blameless for Detroit’s failures during his tenure there.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'll punt on the DJ claim for now, but yes, I feel many tackles in this league are both better and higher regarded. I don't mean to trash DJ though, he's the last of my worries on this team.

"Many" but you can't really name many. I started to look at just the NFC alone and you can't find many Left Tackles that are better. He is easily top 10.

Yeah, I guess it was nice being in the playoff "hunt," but crumbling down the stretch when it became apparent we couldn't do anything at all with Murray not at 100%.

I think we are all frustrated in how the season ended, but they still went 8-8 and were better than average in most categories. I think adding to the offensive line, a bit more growth from Murray, and adding more targets in the passing game should help.

The Rams have less players over 30 than we signed this offseason, so it's absolutely true. We also have multiple position groups we have next to 0 players at next offseason. Next offseason we're scheduled to need to find tons of starters (CB, RB, OLB, G, maybe WR, RT).

This is a false dilemma as I showed you elsewhere. Most of the league is in the exact same situation! I posted a link showing you this the last time you were going all chicken little about this. Most of the Cardinals core players ARE under contract next year.

And the Rams have age at some key positions, lost their starting center, their Pro Bowl caliber FS, their real good nickel in Troy Hill (who plays some outside corner too), and their REALLY GOOD defensive coordinator and replaced him with has been Raheem Morris. I think McVay HAS earned the benefit of the doubt, but other than Stafford, the Rams look worse on paper right now.

It's ridiculous to not think Stafford is better than Goff. Stafford's put up better individual season marks than literally anything Goff has done, with a mess around him most of the time.

I think Stafford IS better, but I don't think he is worth the haul they gave up to get him. And I don't think it's as substantial as you do, I have watched Stafford fart away too many games over the years to put him in the same category as a Rodgers or a Wilson. He is probably on par with Matt Ryan now, and I don't think I'd trade a butt load of picks for him

At least the end of your post I completely agree with. We're not going to a Super Bowl with this roster or strategy. We're well behind the curve when it comes to any hope of long term success. Fire the man. I don't want to look to free agency every single year as a chance to completely rebuild the roster, I want to feel like we have a chance every year like the stereotypically successful teams who only need a few bounces their way to have playoff success, not just a few bounces to go their way to maybe have a chance to be a wild card.

I mean, pretty much like, 80%+ of this board wants Keim gone.

I think Keim is good at trades, decent at free agency. But he has missed on way too many draft picks, so the team is constantly having to get retreads and expensive players through free agency. Even successful guys like Pugh cost way more than hitting on a starting guard in round 3. It's an unsustainable model, and one that will not work long term.

This team is basically built for a one year run and is based on some variables that lead to doubt. AJ Green will have to bounce back a bit. JJ Watt will have to remain healthy. Robert Alford will have to stay healthy OR a young guy will have to step up significantly. RG will have to have someone run away with that job. All these things CAN happen, but there is room for doubt.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

"Many" but you can't really name many. I started to look at just the NFC alone and you can't find many Left Tackles that are better. He is easily top 10.



I think we are all frustrated in how the season ended, but they still went 8-8 and were better than average in most categories. I think adding to the offensive line, a bit more growth from Murray, and adding more targets in the passing game should help.



This is a false dilemma as I showed you elsewhere. Most of the league is in the exact same situation! I posted a link showing you this the last time you were going all chicken little about this. Most of the Cardinals core players ARE under contract next year.

And the Rams have age at some key positions, lost their starting center, their Pro Bowl caliber FS, their real good nickel in Troy Hill (who plays some outside corner too), and their REALLY GOOD defensive coordinator and replaced him with has been Raheem Morris. I think McVay HAS earned the benefit of the doubt, but other than Stafford, the Rams look worse on paper right now.



I think Stafford IS better, but I don't think he is worth the haul they gave up to get him. And I don't think it's as substantial as you do, I have watched Stafford fart away too many games over the years to put him in the same category as a Rodgers or a Wilson. He is probably on par with Matt Ryan now, and I don't think I'd trade a butt load of picks for him



I mean, pretty much like, 80%+ of this board wants Keim gone.

I think Keim is good at trades, decent at free agency. But he has missed on way too many draft picks, so the team is constantly having to get retreads and expensive players through free agency. Even successful guys like Pugh cost way more than hitting on a starting guard in round 3. It's an unsustainable model, and one that will not work long term.

This team is basically built for a one year run and is based on some variables that lead to doubt. AJ Green will have to bounce back a bit. JJ Watt will have to remain healthy. Robert Alford will have to stay healthy OR a young guy will have to step up significantly. RG will have to have someone run away with that job. All these things CAN happen, but there is room for doubt.

The biggest being can Alford recapture his play of FOUR years ago at age 32. That’s a ridiculous course of action for any gm.

 

[Krangodnzr]

The biggest being can Alford recapture his play of FOUR years ago at age 32. That’s a ridiculous course of action for any gm.

I agree. When I look at the CB depth chart, I literally just ignore his name. I expect NOTHING from him.

Butler, Murphy, Wilson, Gowan, and Whitaker. Lots of youth, but MEH.