Stein Line picks NBA Awards

[jibikao]

Agreed...

Mike

Same here. While I don't think Marion is on T-MAC's tier, it is not to say Marion is NOT important. You do need roleplayers to win games and Marion is probably the best you can get now in this league! I would take Marion over T-MAC if T-MAC is on our team now. We don't need a heavy shooter to win games. We need a TEAM to win games.

But T-MAC is one of the most dangerous offense machine in the league. When his jumper is on, nothing can stop him. He is about 6'8!!! Name me a guard who can guard his jump shot. Just like how Dirk is almost unguardable because of his height and agility.

I am happy that Marion makes it to the 3rd Team. Is this the first time he got named to the All Team?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Dude, don't get with the insults. Regardless of whether he's a Sun or not, I believe what I believe.

relax chap, i wasn't insulting you, i was pointing out that i think your homerism clouds your judgement as regards marion. lighten up.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I know he's your buddy and you're going to defend him, but his comment basically means I don't know what the hell I'm talking about because I'm jaded by my love for the Suns.

If I had to choose between the two, I'd choose Shawn. No apologies for that opinion. If I had to choose between TMac and Joe Johnson, I'd definitely choose TMac.

BTW, the Moderators just love me!

i don't think a single gm in the league would select marion over mcgrady given the same contract.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I guess it was more about the "off the scale" comment. I mean we've all seen Marion more than most people, but it's not easy for a 6'7" player to do what Shawn does. In fact, it's mind-boggling. TMac does what he does in his natural position. Shawn does what he does playing against guys that are 3-4" taller and outweight him by at least 30 pounds! That's not just impressive, that's amazing. I still have trouble figuring out just HOW he does it.

Think about it--McGrady is near the same size as Shawn (I don't know the specifics), but make him play power forward, even with Yao Ming, and what happens?

i think we're in agreement on marion's skills and how amazing he's been this season playing out of position, but none of that dispells the notion that tmac is widely acknowledged (not "considered", but actually ACKNOWLEDGED) as the better player.

 

[Chaplin]

i think we're in agreement on marion's skills and how amazing he's been this season playing out of position, but none of that dispells the notion that tmac is widely acknowledged (not "considered", but actually ACKNOWLEDGED) as the better player.

For what reasons? I'll give you the double-team reason, but the dynamic on the Rockets (and the Magic before that) are certainly different than the Suns.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

For what reasons? I'll give you the double-team reason, but the dynamic on the Rockets (and the Magic before that) are certainly different than the Suns.

this is true. but as purely a player - oh, forget it, i have neither the time nor inclination to get into this as you're not going to be convinced by anything i have to say and i can go lay on the beach instead for an hour before i have to catch a plane.

i love marion, but i think he got his due with the third team selection.

 

[ActingWild]

The only reason McGrady is considered a superstar and Marion is not is because McGrady can create his own shot anytime he wants to. Marion can create his own shot but not like McGrady. McGrady is simply an almost unstoppable scorer.

That being said, I'd take Marion over McGrady every day of the week. We have enough scoring on this team and Marion does it ALL. McGrady will NEVER be the rebounding or defensive presence that Shawn is.

Shawn is SOOOOO valuable to this team it's not even funny.

Is Steve Nash a SUPER star? No. Would I take a bona fide superstar like Allen Iverson over Nash. Nuh uh!

Just because you can score more, doesn't mean you're the better player (see the Olympics). Sadly, this league promotes it'self with its scorers and not its players...which is why McGrady gets so much more press, and why he's considered a superstar and Marion isn't.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I personally think T-Crap is wildly overrated. All he does is score. He doesn't make anyone on his team better.

Put it this way, I would take Ray Allen over him and Ray Allen doesn't even crack my top 10.

1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Garnett
4. James
5. Nash
6. Nowitzki
7. Amare
8. Iverson
9. Kome
10. J. O'neal


T-Crap is definitely on par with Marion, Ray Allen, V.C., Ming, ect...Guys who are good. All Stars for sure, but lack some aspect of their game that keeps them from being the top notch. Edit: Forgot Richard Jefferson.

And as far as Chaplin is concerned...this year...Marion is much better than T-Crap.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

If you look at their stats..especially efficiency rating...you will see what I mean that McGrady is not any better than Marion...at least this year.

Just one is vastly overrated and one is vastly underrated.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

If Marion is better than T-Mac then I guess Bryan Colangelo is the biggest moron on the planet considering he offered Marion, another player, and a lottery pick for only McGrady.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

If Marion is better than T-Mac then I guess Bryan Colangelo is the biggest moron on the planet considering he offered Marion, another player, and a lottery pick for only McGrady.

He offered this at the beginning of the year, after Marion really had a down season.

I highly doubt he would even consider that trade now. T-Crap is too much of a ball hog to be on this team. The guy is #2 in FGs attempted after Iverson. Which fits fine on Houston...but simply doesn't belong here.

It is much like would anyone in their right mind trade JJ and Marion for Kome right now? No but most of us would have done it at the beginning of the year.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

He offered this at the beginning of the year, after Marion really had a down season.

I highly doubt he would even consider that trade now. T-Crap is too much of a ball hog to be on this team. The guy is #2 in FGs attempted after Iverson. Which fits fine on Houston...but simply doesn't belong here.

It is much like would anyone in their right mind trade JJ and Marion for Kome right now? No but most of us would have done it at the beginning of the year.

Of course he wouldn't do that now because Marion's presence on this team is invaluable. However, Marion's value to this present Suns squad has little to do with who the better player is between him and Tracy. The same argument could go the other way as you put Marion on the Rockets and they're likely not even in the playoffs. I'll agree to disagree though as they're both terrific players.

 

[Chaplin]

He offered this at the beginning of the year, after Marion really had a down season.

I highly doubt he would even consider that trade now. T-Crap is too much of a ball hog to be on this team. The guy is #2 in FGs attempted after Iverson. Which fits fine on Houston...but simply doesn't belong here.

It is much like would anyone in their right mind trade JJ and Marion for Kome right now? No but most of us would have done it at the beginning of the year.

Exactly.

And another thing, I never said that TMac isn't good, I've said consistently that he was a great player--and I'll say again that the label "superstar" is not something that TMac has earned IMO, it was given to him by the media. Much like Vince Carter was last year. He's starting to live up to the title in New Jersey, but come on, who would have agreed that he was a superstar last year even though the media annointed him as such?

 

[az1965]

Agreed Also, TMAC is a superstar. Marion is an all-star.

Well put...

 

[George O'Brien]

If the definition of a superstar is that he can create his own shot and scores a lot, then T-Mac is a superstar and Marion isn't.

If finishing in the top rank in a half dozen statistical categories is the definition of a superstar, then Marion might rank higher than T-Mac.

Which is the "right" definition? I don't know. But I can say that insulting one another because they have different definitions of the term isn't going to change anyone's opinion.

 

[goldseraph]

I watched T-Mac for years as an Orlando resisdent, and I've seen plenty of Suns games as well. I'm going to have to side with taking T-Mac over Marion.

Marion is a great piece to the puzzle and fits perfectly in the Suns system, but I think T-Mac could score 27 a game on almost any team.

When T-Mac is on fire, there is no stopping him.

I remember one Magic game 2 years ago, where on 4 consecutive possessions, T-Mac just walked the ball up the court, and immediately popped a long distance 3 right in his defenders eye. The defender was completely helpless - basically it's just T-Mac missing a shot if he does, and it had little to do with the defender.

And it's hard to forget the Rockets game this year where he scored what - 12 points in the last 40 seconds or so?

That ability is extremely hard to find. If he actually busted his ass on defense, T-Mac has all the talent to be a NBA 1st team defender too. Maybe someday he will get that serious.

Marion has pushed his talents to the max but I think he will fade more quickly as his athleticism declines. He isn't a go-to guy, he prefers being
the 3rd or 4th option - staying out of the limelight, just hustling, and
filling up the box score with rebounds, put-backs, steals and blocks.
A great player to have on your team, but I just feel those attributes can
be had more easily than an unstoppable scorer who can get to the FT line
at the end of a game, or make the huge shot.



As far as the MVP for Nash, I have to disagree. I feel it should go to
Shaq who has (absurdly) only won a single MVP. He went to a team with
Wade, a 2nd year player, and a bunch of scrubs and took them to 2nd best
record in the league, and 1 seed in the East. He makes everyone else better just as much as Nash, and he's a go-to guy and dominant on both
ends of the floor at times.

 

[Chaplin]

As far as the MVP for Nash, I have to disagree. I feel it should go to
Shaq who has (absurdly) only won a single MVP. He went to a team with
Wade, a 2nd year player, and a bunch of scrubs and took them to 2nd best
record in the league, and 1 seed in the East. He makes everyone else better just as much as Nash, and he's a go-to guy and dominant on both
ends of the floor at times.

And how does most of that paragraph NOT apply to Steve Nash?

 

[fordronken]

I put only a select few in the class of superstar, and T-Mac is not one of them. The only absolutes, as far as I'm concerned are Shaq and Duncan. Then you've got a guy like Kevin Garnett who you probably could include. Kobe and A.I. are borderline. I don't think Dirk belongs, or Nash, or Marion, or Stoudemire, LeBron, Carmello, Kidd, etc. Nobody has the championship hardware or the career consistency to be a genuine superstar the way I look at it, other than Shaq and TD.

Now keep in mind that when I say "superstar", I mean it in the historic sense. That's pretty much the highest term we have for active players in the NBA. If you were to look back at Marion and T-Mac's careers 30 years from now, would anyone be calling them superstars? No, I don't think so. When you compile a list of superstars, who are people gonna think of? Jordan, Bird, Magic, Russell, Chamberlain, etc. Who from today's game would make it? Duncan and Shaq.

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm not sure there are more than three or four real super stars in the last decade by that definition.

It is probably moot anyway. Basketball is a team sport and not just a collection of individuals - as the USA team learned last summer. You can't really know how much a player's success is driven by the teams he has played for.

BTW, I won't judge a player by specific performances. Crawford had a 50 point game last season, but he is not more than an average SG. The reason people point to playoff success is that superstars are generally the ones who have big games when they really matter. MJ set a standard few could even come close to matching.

By that definition, T-Mac cannot really be considered a superstar because he hasn't had a chance to prove he can dominate deep in the playoffs. We don't even mention Dirk, but he has had deep playoff super games. Amare, Marion, etc. simply haven't had a chance to prove whether they can dominate in the playoffs. Until now.

 

[arthurracoon]

the media didn't get the horrible Magic teams into the playoffs in consecutive years or have the Magic one game away from knocking out the #2 seeded Pistons two years ago.

McGrady is a go-to guy scorer and someone who CREATES offense - Shawn does everything else better - agreed - but the above - outshadow Shawn's rebounding/steals.

If you're gonna build a team - you start witht he McGrady's - Marion's come down the line.

If I was building a team from scratch, I'd take TMac.

If I were choosing between TMac or Matrix for the Suns, I'd take the Matrix, obviously.

However, TMac is a go-to player in teh clutch who can get off the final shot.

 

[pokerface]

McGrady is a borderline superstar....He's done a couple things well but has accomplished far less than others being labeled as superstars.

Is Mcgrady better than Marion? As others stated it depends on what you look at. I definately believe Marion is better for the Suns than Tmac without question. On a team full of scorers Marion blends better than Tmac could ever dream of doing. Marion doesnt have to score to be effective out on the court while Tmac has to shoot to be of value. Frankly if we had Tmac it would probably turn into another Marbury situation where Amare feels he's not getting enough touches and we ALL believe Amare should get more touches than anyone....Tmac included.

 

[sly fly]

Shawn Marion's play this year is one of the reason's why were about to lock up home-court throughout the playoffs.

All this guy did was fly around the court on EVERY night. He guarded players much taller than him. He guarded players much shorter than him.

How many times did you see a Suns' fast break w/o Marion in the picture?

How many times did you see Marion tip the rebound to himself?

How many times did you see Marion hit a clutch 3?

How many times did you see Marion tip the ball in after his own miss?

How many double-doubles does this guy have?

What will it take for the national media to get it's heads out of their asses, and realize he's a solid candidate for NBA MVP?

No, Marion is not the dynamic scorer like T-Mac. Screw scoring. I can find a guy on the street who can score. Show me a player who is a COMPLETE ballplayer, and I'll show you someone who I want on my team.

Mao, easy to take a poke at Bryan Colangelo far "almost" trading Marion and a bag of chips for T-Mac. Marion struggled last year. I can guarantee you no GM in the NBA saw this kind of consistent play coming from Marion. Poll the GM's now, and they wouldn't trade Marion for T-Mac straight up.

 

[arthurracoon]

Shawn Marion's play this year is one of the reason's why were about to lock up home-court throughout the playoffs.

All this guy did was fly around the court on EVERY night. He guarded players much taller than him. He guarded players much shorter than him.

How many times did you see a Suns' fast break w/o Marion in the picture?

How many times did you see Marion tip the rebound to himself?

How many times did you see Marion hit a clutch 3?

How many times did you see Marion tip the ball in after his own miss?

How many double-doubles does this guy have?

What will it take for the national media to get it's heads out of their asses, and realize he's a solid candidate for NBA MVP?

No, Marion is not the dynamic scorer like T-Mac. Screw scoring. I can find a guy on the street who can score. Show me a player who is a COMPLETE ballplayer, and I'll show you someone who I want on my team.

Mao, easy to take a poke at Bryan Colangelo far "almost" trading Marion and a bag of chips for T-Mac. Marion struggled last year. I can guarantee you no GM in the NBA saw this kind of consistent play coming from Marion. Poll the GM's now, and they wouldn't trade Marion for T-Mac straight up.

Thats all exactly correct, and Shawn is the PERFECT fit for this team.
He is also a top player in the league.

However, if there were 10 ticks left on the clock, and only 1 player is going to get the ball, I want that player to be TMac, not Shawn.

Other than that, Shawn is a better player. However he is not a primary option. He is however, the ultimate utility man.

 

[elindholm]

Poll the GM's now, and they wouldn't trade Marion for T-Mac straight up.

I agree with your praise of Marion, but this conclusion goes way overboard. Marion is thriving now precisely because he is the third option and can dart around the court picking up garbage points and filling in the gaps. He's probably -- probably -- a better choice for this current Suns team right now than McGrady, because he's more willing to take a secondary role and (har har) more effective at guarding power forwards.

In general, though, McGrady is a more valuable player, because he can be the primary offensive focus. "Wait for the Nash/Stoudemire pick and roll to get stopped, and then spot up somewhere" isn't the kind of offensive scheme that most teams could get far with, and neither is "Wait until the ball is loose around the rim, and then go get it."

Most GM's in the league, if given the choice, would take McGrady. In fact, I'd say that probably 29 of them would, the only other possible exception being Miami.

 

[sly fly]

Poll the GM's now, and they wouldn't trade Marion for T-Mac straight up.

I agree with your praise of Marion, but this conclusion goes way overboard. Marion is thriving now precisely because he is the third option and can dart around the court picking up garbage points and filling in the gaps. He's probably -- probably -- a better choice for this current Suns team right now than McGrady, because he's more willing to take a secondary role and (har har) more effective at guarding power forwards.

In general, though, McGrady is a more valuable player, because he can be the primary offensive focus. "Wait for the Nash/Stoudemire pick and roll to get stopped, and then spot up somewhere" isn't the kind of offensive scheme that most teams could get far with, and neither is "Wait until the ball is loose around the rim, and then go get it."

Most GM's in the league, if given the choice, would take McGrady. In fact, I'd say that probably 29 of them would, the only other possible exception being Miami.

Are you sure about that?

How many GM's would be scared off in regards to T-Mac's comments about "feeling old"?

Look, T-Mac is an amazing scoring machine. He's impossible to stop once he gets rolling. Tough to defend because he'll shoot right over you. That's undebatable.

But, what exactly has T-Mac done in regards to single-handidly leading his team deep in the playoffs? Not saying that Marion has, but in order for T-Mac to reap the praise worthy of a superstar... he's going to have to show he can do this. All I saw were excuses in Orlando.

Before this year, I would have said Marion had peaked. I saw bad shot selection, questionable ball handling, and the inability to finish. Those doubts have been erased. He has raised his game to another level. Players do this from time to time. Steve Nash has given him the confidence to do this.

(THIS POST CAN BE OFFICIALLY ERASED IF MCGRADY SOMEHOW LEADS HOUSTON INTO THE FINALS.)