Steve Kerr To Get an Extension?

[elindholm]

Colangelo did the exact same thing when he traded Googs

It wasn't quite the same thing, because Gugliotta no longer had any value as a player. Thomas did, as is made clearer every month by the fact that he continues to make important contributions to playoff teams (presently the Bucks).

The biggest error with the Thomas trade was failing to realize how much he was still worth on the basketball court -- to the Suns or anyone else.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Colangelo did the exact same thing when he traded Googs, yet people pray for the day he can run the team again.

I hated that trade too but it's a far cry from being the same thing. Kurt was still pretty much the player we traded for but Googs was a shadow of the player we signed. Kurt still had trade value, witness the trade for value just a few months later. Also, without doing any research on it I'm quite confident that Googs was more expensive (at least relatively).

Without the trade we would have had Thomas available to play for us in the postseason and San Antonio would not have had him. You won't find a comparable situation involving Googs. And most importantly, we weren't on the verge of competing for a championship had we kept Googs but may well have been had we kept Thomas.

Steve

 

[dreamcastrocks]

It wasn't quite the same thing, because Gugliotta no longer had any value as a player. Thomas did, as is made clearer every month by the fact that he continues to make important contributions to playoff teams (presently the Bucks).

The biggest error with the Thomas trade was failing to realize how much he was still worth on the basketball court -- to the Suns or anyone else.

I hated that trade too but it's a far cry from being the same thing. Kurt was still pretty much the player we traded for but Googs was a shadow of the player we signed. Kurt still had trade value, witness the trade for value just a few months later. Also, without doing any research on it I'm quite confident that Googs was more expensive (at least relatively).

Without the trade we would have had Thomas available to play for us in the postseason and San Antonio would not have had him. You won't find a comparable situation involving Googs. And most importantly, we weren't on the verge of competing for a championship had we kept Googs but may well have been had we kept Thomas.

Steve

If anything, Googs had just as much value (at the time) as his expiring contract was a greater value.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If anything, Googs had just as much value (at the time) as his expiring contract was a greater value.

Okay, I know there is a logic problem with the reasoning I'm using here but don't you think you're statement disproves itself? If his contract truly had greater value then why did we have to give up multiple picks in order to move it?

Steve

 

[CardsFan88]

I don't think this year's team is entirely indicative of Kerr's worth.

We wouldn't be where we are had Lopez and Dragic not panned out.

I also wouldn't say Kerr was such a mastermind getting a former phx high school player, and UofA player who wanted to play for Phx, to play for us, as such a great GM move.

I guess it's up to the insiders as to WHO put the most weight behind drafting Lopez, Dragic, etc that should get the credit.

Not to mention Alvin Gentry.

Kerr? Still think he's horrible. Now how horrible is a measure of leeway by $arver. If $arver instructs any gm to cut costs, even the best would be hard pressed to win. But again only insiders would know if $arver did that, and to what degree, if any.

I'm not giving Kerr a pass, because scouts got some picks right. He still has given away gold for silver time and time again. Here's 100 tons of gold, give me 5 pieces of silver. YEAH! Woo hoo now we don't have to pay the storage costs for all that extra gold.

 

[SunsTzu]

If his contract truly had greater value then why did we have to give up multiple picks in order to move it?

Steve

Because the Suns weren't looking to get value in return they were looking to profit from league payout. The Jazz were the only team far enough under the cap to absorb the money and the Suns got into a bidding war with other teams also looking to unload large contracts.

Player value KT was able to contribute more but money wise Googs had more value not only because he had a larger contract but because much of his salary that year had already been paid when he was traded.

 

[mojorizen7]

It wasn't quite the same thing, because Gugliotta no longer had any value as a player. Thomas did, as is made clearer every month by the fact that he continues to make important contributions to playoff teams (presently the Bucks).

The biggest error with the Thomas trade was failing to realize how much he was still worth on the basketball court -- to the Suns or anyone else.

Bullseye. Especially considering our biggest obstacle was the SPURS and their size and rebounding up front.
It wasn't close to the same thing in terms of "on the court" repercussions.
Don't get me started on how disgustingly overlooked and undervalued KT's on court value was.

IMO K.Thomas was THE ONE piece that might have allowed SSOL to get it done(if used properly in '07.....and if he'd returned in '08). We were on the cusp, but thats the offseason where i realized that the culture needed to change here if we were ever going to win a title.Its also the birthplace of my negativity that has brought me to where i stand today as a long time SUNS fan.......uninterested and cynical.
0-41 and still signing guys like Channing Frye to play the 5.

 

[Chaplin]

Bullseye. Especially considering our biggest obstacle was the SPURS and their size and rebounding up front.
It wasn't close to the same thing in terms of "on the court" repercussions.
Don't get me started on how disgustingly overlooked and undervalued KT's on court value was.

IMO K.Thomas was THE ONE piece that might have allowed SSOL to get it done(if used properly in '07.....and if he'd returned in '08). We were on the cusp, but thats the offseason where i realized that the culture needed to change here if we were ever going to win a title.Its also the birthplace of my negativity that has brought me to where i stand today as a long time SUNS fan.......uninterested and cynical.
0-41 and still signing guys like Channing Frye to play the 5.

Good lord. Losing Thomas was a huge blow, especially for what we gave up for him, but stop pretending he was the legitimate final piece of those teams.

It was what it was: A horrible trade, but not one that made us lose a possible championship.

 

[mojorizen7]

Good lord. Losing Thomas was a huge blow, especially for what we gave up for him, but stop pretending he was the legitimate final piece of those teams.

It was what it was: A horrible trade, but not one that made us lose a possible championship.

(Sigh)
I disagree. We had lots of passers,playmakers,shooters,speed,athleticism.......but zero post defense and very little rebounding without KT,who could also stay on the floor with his mid-range offensive game. Without him we were a 1st place team that decided they needed to make a blockbuster trade late in the season......a paper tiger.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Okay, I know there is a logic problem with the reasoning I'm using here but don't you think you're statement disproves itself? If his contract truly had greater value then why did we have to give up multiple picks in order to move it?

Steve

I hear ya. That's not how it should be. The Suns didn't, AND STILL do not know the true value of an expired contract. Most teams can acquire draft picks and good players, but the Suns have to give them.

 

[Chaplin]

(Sigh)
I disagree. We had lots of passers,playmakers,shooters,speed,athleticism.......but zero post defense and very little rebounding without KT,who could also stay on the floor with his mid-range offensive game. Without him we were a 1st place team that decided they needed to make a blockbuster trade late in the season......a paper tiger.

For a guy that was such a difference maker, he certainly didn't help a Spurs team that arguably was at the same level or even higher than we were.

That trade wasn't horrible because KT was traded, it was horrible because we traded 2 unprotected first-rounders with him.

 

[Bufalay]

For a guy that was such a difference maker, he certainly didn't help a Spurs team that arguably was at the same level or even higher than we were.

That trade wasn't horrible because KT was traded, it was horrible because we traded 2 unprotected first-rounders with him.

The Spurs didn't need a post defender like the Suns did.

 

[elindholm]

The Spurs didn't need a post defender like the Suns did.

Right, exactly. It's like the last time the Spurs won with Finley; he wasn't that good a player, but he was one of their few deep threats. Letting Finley go to the Suns would have hurt the Spurs much more than help the Suns, because he wouldn't have been filling a need in Phoenix.

To see Thomas's value to the Suns, all you have to do is compare Games 2 through 4 of the Suspension Series to Game 1. The Suns team in Games 2 through 4 could genuinely compete with the Spurs and may even have been superior to them; the Game 1 Suns didn't have a chance.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Good lord. Losing Thomas was a huge blow, especially for what we gave up for him, but stop pretending he was the legitimate final piece of those teams.

It was what it was: A horrible trade, but not one that made us lose a possible championship.

i'm really not sure how you can write that losing thomas was a huge blow but not something that made us lose a possible championship. There's a thin line between being a title contender and a playoff team and I'd say a previous title contender having a huge loss is something that makes a difference between winning it and losing it.

and losing KT had a trickle down effect everywhere on the court... we couldn't defend down low at all so we had to move Marion to get a low post defender in Shaq, but in turn that completely destroyed ANY ability that team had to defend the pick and roll.

That's what Kurt was able to do for that team. He allowed them to play both styles... a bigger style with him manning the middle, while still being able to play within the offense while having Marion on the court to cover Nash's deficiencies.

I mean, you said it yourself... he was a huge loss. Championship contenders who suffer huge losses usually are no longer championship contenders.

 

[Chaplin]

Right, exactly. It's like the last time the Spurs won with Finley; he wasn't that good a player, but he was one of their few deep threats. Letting Finley go to the Suns would have hurt the Spurs much more than help the Suns, because he wouldn't have been filling a need in Phoenix.

To see Thomas's value to the Suns, all you have to do is compare Games 2 through 4 of the Suspension Series to Game 1. The Suns team in Games 2 through 4 could genuinely compete with the Spurs and may even have been superior to them; the Game 1 Suns didn't have a chance.

Come on Eric, you don't actually believe that Kurt Thomas scoring less than 5 points a game and less than 6 rebounds a game was "the difference" back then, do you?

I'm not saying he was useless, I'm saying he was NOT the difference between winning a championship and not winning one. And again, the 2 picks were the much, much, much bigger loss.

 

[Cheesebeef]

For a guy that was such a difference maker, he certainly didn't help a Spurs team that arguably was at the same level or even higher than we were.

a) they didn't need a low-post defender as desperately as we did, thus he wasn't the difference maker for that team as he would have been for our team, who had NO low post defender.

b) he was a key part of a team that destroyed us... and if we at the same level as them, I'd say helping them kick our asses out of the playoffs was help enough. But also then helped them knock out the number 2 seed and favored Hornets team in the second round. So not sure he didn't help them there.

Bottom line - that last Spurs title team was on it's last legs and KT helped continue their last gasp the next season.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Come on Eric, you don't actually believe that Kurt Thomas scoring less than 5 points a game and less than 6 rebounds a game was "the difference" back then, do you?

I'm not saying he was useless, I'm saying he was NOT the difference between winning a championship and not winning one. And again, the 2 picks were the much, much, much bigger loss.

again, there's a thin line between winning it all and losing it all and when you take away a team's only low-post defender, which necessitates a trade for a low post defender, which only weakens your defense further because that low-post defender is pretty washed up, can't defender the pick and roll AND the guy you traded to get him used to cover players Nash couldn't, then yes, losing KT was the difference.

do you think it's just a coincidence that the previous year's team won 61 games and that team only won 55? We both know there's a big difference between 60 game winner and 55 game winners Chap.

 

[Chaplin]

again, there's a thin line between winning it all and losing it all and when you take away a team's only low-post defender, which necessitates a trade for a low post defender, which only weakens your defense further because that low-post defender is pretty washed up, can't defender the pick and roll AND the guy you traded to get him used to cover players Nash couldn't, then yes, losing KT was the difference.

do you think it's just a coincidence that the previous year's team won 61 games and that team only won 55? We both know there's a big difference between 60 game winner and 55 game winners Chap.

Sure, but (like Stephen Hunter before him) I believe you and several others on this board overrate KT's importance for that team. Yes, he definitely would have helped if we kept him, I'm not saying he wouldn't. We needed a low post defender and he would have filled that role.

But unfortunately, we needed more than just a low post defender back then. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely would have loved to keep KT, I really do. And I wished we had. But in the long run, keeping or not keeping him would not have mattered at that point. We still weren't going to win the title no matter what. My opinion still stands that I think the biggest loss in that trade wasn't KT, but the 2 picks.

 

[mojorizen7]

Sure, but (like Stephen Hunter before him) I believe you and several others on this board overrate KT's importance for that team. Yes, he definitely would have helped if we kept him, I'm not saying he wouldn't. We needed a low post defender and he would have filled that role.

But unfortunately, we needed more than just a low post defender back then. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely would have loved to keep KT, I really do. And I wished we had. But in the long run, keeping or not keeping him would not have mattered at that point. We still weren't going to win the title no matter what. My opinion still stands that I think the biggest loss in that trade wasn't KT, but the 2 picks.

??? What did we need more of ???

 

[SirStefan32]

??? What did we need more of ???

Right, exactly! They had it all except for low post defender. Sure, they could have used a backup point guard, but they needed a low post defender more than anything else.

 

[Chaplin]

Right, exactly! They had it all except for low post defender. Sure, they could have used a backup point guard, but they needed a low post defender more than anything else.

This coming from people that have been complaining about the backup point guard position for YEARS.

THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE WON THE TITLE WITH KURT THOMAS. Sure, their chances would have been better, but that's to say 1 in 10 rather than 1 in 20.

Our great teams of the past 10 years lost because of freak injuries (Joe Johnson's face) and inconvenient suspensions, not because we traded away Kurt Thomas.

 

[Bufalay]

??? What did we need more of ???

ENERGY!!! The ball finds the energy!!!

 

[elindholm]

Come on Eric, you don't actually believe that Kurt Thomas scoring less than 5 points a game and less than 6 rebounds a game was "the difference" back then, do you?

Well, if a series is close, you need everything. Which particular element you single out as "the difference" is sort of arbitrary. If I want to buy something for 59 cents and I have 60 cents in my pocket, which coin is "the difference"?

Yes, I do believe that a Suns team with Thomas had a real chance to win a title, whereas a team without him did not. I believed that then, I believe it now, and I anticipate that I will continue to believe it. To me, the difference in how the Suns played when he was on the floor was obvious. Whether he was "the difference" is a matter of semantics.

 

[Bufalay]

which coin is "the difference"?

The one that you drop in the toilet.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Sure, but (like Stephen Hunter before him) I believe you and several others on this board overrate KT's importance for that team. Yes, he definitely would have helped if we kept him, I'm not saying he wouldn't. We needed a low post defender and he would have filled that role.

But unfortunately, we needed more than just a low post defender back then. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely would have loved to keep KT, I really do. And I wished we had. But in the long run, keeping or not keeping him would not have mattered at that point. We still weren't going to win the title no matter what. My opinion still stands that I think the biggest loss in that trade wasn't KT, but the 2 picks.

i don't really understand this... on one hand you say inconvenient suspensions cost us a title more than losing kt did, but if that's the case, aren't you saying that you thought the 2007 team with KT who suffered the suspensions was title worthy? and if that's the case, then how could th exact same team WITH Grant hill have stood "no chance whatsoever over ever winning a title"?

that just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.