Steve Kerr To Get an Extension?

[elindholm]

Also, it's logically inconsistent to lament Lopez's loss this season while being so cavalier about Thomas's loss a few years ago. Thomas was a better player with better numbers and a ton more veteran savvy.

 

[Chaplin]

Also, it's logically inconsistent to lament Lopez's loss this season while being so cavalier about Thomas's loss a few years ago. Thomas was a better player with better numbers and a ton more veteran savvy.

I haven't said anything about Lopez.

If you guys want to disagree with me, fine. But don't put words in my mouth that I never said.

But I guess nothing is going to convince you that I actually did like Thomas. Unfortunately, for most fans everything is black and white, there are no gray areas.

I totally understand your points-of-view, I just disagree with it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I haven't said anything about Lopez.

If you guys want to disagree with me, fine. But don't put words in my mouth that I never said..

agreed. You've never mentioned Robin. Not sure why Eric brought that up.

But I guess nothing is going to convince you that I actually did like Thomas. Unfortunately, for most fans everything is black and white, there are no gray areas.

Chap are you counting yourself as those who see things in black and white, because:

"THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE WON THE TITLE WITH KURT THOMAS."

your words in all caps doesn't get any more more black and white than that.

 

[Chaplin]

agreed. You've never mentioned Robin. Not sure why Eric brought that up.



Chap are you counting yourself as those who see things in black and white, because:

"THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE WON THE TITLE WITH KURT THOMAS."

your words in all caps doesn't get any more more black and white than that.

The point is that you see KT as the final piece of a championship team. I do not. He is A piece, not THE piece. That's all. Like I said, I totally understand your position, and certainly don't fault you for it. (I also remember Duncan abusing him in a couple games)

And no, even with Lopez, I don't think we can win the title. I'd love for that to happen and our chances are probably better, but the odds are still pretty bad (just like they were in regards to KT).

 

[BC867]

The point is that you see KT as the final piece of a championship team. I do not. He is A piece, not THE piece.

I agree. KT was certainly not a dominant Center. Just the closest thing we had to a sort-of-legitimate Center at the time.

D'Antoni changing the chemistry in Game 2 of the playoff series by starting KT accentuated how he should have made him part of the starting lineup long before the post-season. That's not the time to tinker.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

If losing your backup big man knocks you from being a title contender, then you were never likely a contender in the first place.

What revisionist history here. We had Kurt with better teams and didn't win a title. He was a pretty good back up low post defender. He wasn't the best low post defender in the league and as I remember was thrashed by alot the top 4-5's in the league more often then not. Conversely Robin Lopez is already much better one on one.

Losing Kurt Thomas sucked but I am much more pissed about the picks. Kurt Thomas wasn't the difference in a ring. That I know.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If losing your backup big man knocks you from being a title contender, then you were never likely a contender in the first place.

What revisionist history here. We had Kurt with better teams and didn't win a title. He was a pretty good back up low post defender.

Talk about revisionist history... he was actually a pretty good STARTING low post defender, as he was on the Suns team as matchups dictated (especially against a team like the Spurs where he started the last 5 games of their 2007 series) AND he was a FULL-TIME starting low post defender with the Spurs the next year who beat our asses and then beat the Hornets before succumbing to injuries and the Lakers in the Conference Finals.

Dude was a starter with us when match-ups dictated and was a full time starter with the Spurs. Losing THAT caliber player and replacing him with GARBAGE when low post defense was your weakest link certainly could knock a title contender down to a title pretender.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The point is that you see KT as the final piece of a championship team. I do not. He is A piece, not THE piece. That's all.

and I disagree. he was THE piece the team was lacking and the team pretty much admitted as much by making the desperation trade for Shaq because he was a low-post defender.

And no, even with Lopez, I don't think we can win the title. I'd love for that to happen and our chances are probably better, but the odds are still pretty bad (just like they were in regards to KT).

ok, you've said this on a couple of occasions but I'm not sure I really understand you so I'll ask you a simple question so as to not assume anything:

Did you think the Suns had bad odds of beating the Spurs in the 2007 Semis?

 

[elindholm]

I haven't said anything about Lopez.

If you guys want to disagree with me, fine. But don't put words in my mouth that I never said.

I meant other posters.

 

[elindholm]

We had Kurt with better teams and didn't win a title.

When?

He wasn't the best low post defender in the league and as I remember was thrashed by alot the top 4-5's in the league more often then not.

"Thrashed" is an exaggeration, but sure, he got outplayed by Duncan. Almost everyone does. The difference is that he could credibly guard Duncan straight up, which improved both the Suns' perimeter defense and their defensive rebounding.

Conversely Robin Lopez is already much better one on one.

That's absurd. There's no way in hell that Lopez is a better post defender than the Kurt Thomas of 3-4 years ago.

 

[mojorizen7]

If losing your backup big man knocks you from being a title contender, then you were never likely a contender in the first place.

It would certainly knock you down if you had no one else who can defend the post or rebound....regardless if he's your backup or not. If you're a team like S.A. or Boston that has ample depth in terms of guys who can defend and go to the glass and you lose a backup then sure, your statement has validity....but you take that SUNS team(s) that were loaded with dynamic scorers and shooters and subtract a KT then it's esssentially removing the peanut from the butter.

Losing a guy like Barbosa(that summer) would of had a much less greater impact on our playoff success rather than losing a KT imo. Just putting this out there to make my point a little clearer,has nothing to do with dollars and cents.

 

[Chaplin]

\

ok, you've said this on a couple of occasions but I'm not sure I really understand you so I'll ask you a simple question so as to not assume anything:

Did you think the Suns had bad odds of beating the Spurs in the 2007 Semis?

Ok, I'll concede that I thought the Suns were the better team and could have beat the Spurs and then the Jazz in the Western Conference Finals. However, the reason for that was not because of Kurt Thomas. There was only one reason we lost that series and that was losing Boris and Amare to suspension for Game 5. Granted, KT played well in that game, but let's face it, our odds would have decreased if we hadn't had KT, but if KT was the one suspended and not Boris and Amare, I still think we would have won that series.

 

[Chaplin]

It would certainly knock you down if you had no one else who can defend the post or rebound....regardless if he's your backup or not. If you're a team like S.A. or Boston that has ample depth in terms of guys who can defend and go to the glass and you lose a backup then sure, your statement has validity....but you take that SUNS team(s) that were loaded with dynamic scorers and shooters and subtract a KT then it's esssentially removing the peanut from the butter.

Losing a guy like Barbosa(that summer) would of had a much less greater impact on our playoff success rather than losing a KT imo. Just putting this out there to make my point a little clearer,has nothing to do with dollars and cents.

Except that was the year Barbosa won 6th man of the year, and he more than earned that award. KT was a backup post defender. If he was so important, why did he not get more minutes?

 

[mojorizen7]

Except that was the year Barbosa won 6th man of the year, and he more than earned that award. KT was a backup post defender. If he was so important, why did he not get more minutes?

Because he couldn't run,shoot the three or pass the ball very well(like the rest of his teammates could) i suppose.....which brings us back to why it was such a short-sighted dumb decision to let go the only player on the team who could defend the post,rebound and bang with the opposing big men that punished us game after game.

 

[Chaplin]

Because he couldn't run,shoot the three or pass the ball very well(like the rest of his teammates could) i suppose.....which brings us back to why it was such a short-sighted dumb decision to let go the only player on the team who could defend the post,rebound and bang with the opposing big men that punished us game after game.

That's just it, I don't disagree that it was a mistake to get rid of him, I think we all agree on that. I just don't think that trade cost us a championship that year.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Most of what you replied with is fair, but the thing that makes me the most angry about this trade was the picks. I am firmly in the camp that Kurt wouldn't have been the difference in beating any team of consequence the year after he was traded as while our defense was better with him, it wasn't three rounds of playoffs better with the bigs getting better each round. Thats my opinion of course.

In terms of signficant losses, I think losing Joe in 2005 in the Dallas playoff game was a MUCH Bigger reason for us not winning a title then Kurt getting traded.

FWIW and getting back to this thread, this wasn't a Steve Kerr move. You don't get rid of a rotational player AND draft picks for a 2nd round pick unless the deal is financially motivated 100%. Steve had to take the best (only?) deal available and I would bet my house that was an edict from Sarver.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

When?.

2005

"Thrashed" is an exaggeration, but sure, he got outplayed by Duncan. Almost everyone does. The difference is that he could credibly guard Duncan straight up, which improved both the Suns' perimeter defense and their defensive rebounding.

I guess but my bigger point is we were still getting killed down low and on the offensive boards, albeit less then before he came on board. He wasn't THAT much of a difference maker IMO.

That's absurd. There's no way in hell that Lopez is a better post defender than the Kurt Thomas of 3-4 years ago.

Lopez is better offensively then Kurt by a mile (even at an embryonic stage) which allows him to stay on the floor longer (because he is not such an offensive liability) and thus giving us more low post defense and rebounding over the course of a game. Also did you read that article but that guy who does the "Valley of the Suns" website or something that was linked to a few weeks back on this forum?? I can get the link if you like. The splits with Robin starting and Robin not starting are amazing and I would be willing to bet MUCH higher then Thomas's although I don't know for sure.

So no I don't think its that absurd to say. Plus we all know you are bitter about being off on the kid at the beginning of the season

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ok, I'll concede that I thought the Suns were the better team and could have beat the Spurs and then the Jazz in the Western Conference Finals. However, the reason for that was not because of Kurt Thomas. There was only one reason we lost that series and that was losing Boris and Amare to suspension for Game 5. Granted, KT played well in that game, but let's face it, our odds would have decreased if we hadn't had KT, but if KT was the one suspended and not Boris and Amare, I still think we would have won that series.

okay, well then I really don't understand your logic. So the team with KT WAS good enough to win a title, but the next year, with Grant Hill added they wouldn't have?

I mean, the only difference between the 61 win team in 2007 who was a great team and the team that 24-8 and leaking like a sieve the next year was KT... hell, the 24-8 team had a healthy Grant Hill team as well. If it wasn't KT's loss that was effecting the next year's club, what was it?

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's just it, I don't disagree that it was a mistake to get rid of him, I think we all agree on that. I just don't think that trade cost us a championship that year.

you really don't see the trickle-down effect that trade had on the team? That team with Thomas was able to play all styles... it could play big or small, something that we've seen almost every team who wins a title be able to do. But by letting Thomas go we could only play small and thus any team we played with any size was eating us alive.

And that necessitated us having to make a move to get a big man, but in doing so, took away our ability to play small and left Nash completely vulnerable against guys Marion would have guarded.

You seem to think Thomas wasn't that important, but where do you think the Celtics would have been without PJ Brown? Watching that team and listening to every player on the Celtics, they all said they wouldn't have won it without his D, little jumpers and tenacity. That's who we lost. We lost our PJ Brown. I mean, do you think it's just a coincidence that after trading Thomas all year we hoped and prayed (the FO as well) that PJ would play for us and when it was apparent that he wasn't going to, we had to make a trade for a low-post defender that completely changed the team?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Basically, what it comes down to IMO is that 2006-7 Suns team WAS good enough to win a title but it was only good enough to do so because it pretty much had everything it needed to do so. On a title team every single player has to be productive or have a niche. Thomas was our bruiser... our only bruiser. He was a glue guy that enabled us to run either the gimmick or play straight up. He was our PJ Brown, our Trevor Ariza, guys who were dirt workers/unsung heroes on teams of superstars who could depended on to do whatever you needed them to. Ariza and PJ were the missing pieces for the Celtics and Lakers... every Celtics said so in 2007 and every Laker was saying the same thing last year during their title run. They draw a charge, hit a baseline jumper, got a rebound, made a steal, fouled someone hard. THAT'S what KT did for us down low. We had our heavy up top with Raja, but once we lost KT, we lost any amount of gruntness down low.

Problem was we replaced that with an orange goatee who had bounced around the league forever and had never played a single minute of meaningful basketball in his life and when he finally did, he bricked four free throws in a row and was utterly useless.

Now I know someone will probably swoop in here and say "You're crazy! KT isn't half the player Ariza is!" But we'll know who thiose people are and how they like to twist things to blow a debate in another direction. So save your breath.

 

[Bufalay]

2005

No. '05 playoffs he wasn't on the team. '06 playoffs he was injured.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

KT was invaluable, we probably win that SAS series even with the suspensions if Antoni plays him Game 1.

 

[elindholm]

(When were there better teams with Thomas?) 2005

Do you mean 2004-05, or 2005-06? Thomas wasn't on the team in 2004-05, and 2005-06 was Stoudemire's microfracture year.

So, no, there was no better team with Thomas than 2006-07. That year was their best chance. The fact that you think a "2005" team with Thomas was better points to a fuzzy memory.

He wasn't THAT much of a difference maker IMO.

That's because D'Antoni didn't play him, even though many on this board were begging all season long for Thomas to have a bigger role.

I am firmly in the camp that Kurt wouldn't have been the difference in beating any team of consequence the year after he was traded as while our defense was better with him, it wasn't three rounds of playoffs better with the bigs getting better each round.

The Spurs won the title in 2007. After squeaking by the Suns, they coasted past Utah in 5, then swept Cleveland in the Finals. The Suns were the only team that made them break a sweat. Who, exactly, were the intimidating bigs that the Suns were in line to face next?

I guess I need to give these stats again. Seems like we go through this every year or so.

2006-07 vs. Spurs:

Game 1: Thomas plays 13 minutes, Suns outrebounded by 14 (49-35), Spurs shoot 50%, Suns lose.

Game 2: Thomas starts and plays 28 minutes, Suns outrebounded by 1 (40-39), Spurs shoot 43%, Suns win big (only double-digit win by either team of series).

Game 3: Thomas starts and plays 36 minutes, Suns outrebounded by 8 (47-39), Spurs shoot 44%, Suns lose.

Game 4: Thomas starts and plays 26 minutes, Suns win rebounding battle by 10 (42-32), Spurs shoot 48%, Suns win.

Game 5 (suspension game): Thomas starts and plays 36 minutes, Suns win rebounding battle by 3 (42-39), Spurs shoot 40%, Suns lose in closing moments.

Game 6: Thomas starts but plays only 17 minutes (most likely worn out from Game 5), rebounding even (43-43), Spurs shoot 49%, Suns lose.

The Suns were 0-2 in the two games that Thomas played less than 20 minutes, and those were the Spurs' two best shooting games.

They were 2-2 in the games that Thomas played at least 26 minutes. In those four games, they outrebounded the Spurs overall (by an average of 1.0 per game) and held the Spurs below 45% shooting three out of four times.

To most of us watching the series as it unfolded, the difference was night and day. Had D'Antoni not stubbornly forfeited Game 1 by parking Thomas on the bench, the Suns would have had an excellent chance in that series. And there was really no one left in their way.

Lopez is better offensively then Kurt by a mile (even at an embryonic stage)

"By a mile" is rhetorical, but I agree that Lopez is better than Thomas offensively.

which allows him to stay on the floor longer (because he is not such an offensive liability)

Where do you come up with this stuff? Lopez has played 30+ minutes in a game only seven times all season. Come on, at least don't directly contradict the facts when you're arguing your point.

Also did you read that article but that guy who does the "Valley of the Suns" website or something that was linked to a few weeks back on this forum?? I can get the link if you like. The splits with Robin starting and Robin not starting are amazing

Jeez, you don't have to tell me that the team is much better with Lopez starting. And no, I certainly don't need a link to some fanboi's blog. I'm perfectly competent to assess the numbers myself.

and I would be willing to bet MUCH higher then Thomas's although I don't know for sure.

Let's put it this way: Do you think D'Antoni would have given Lopez this much burn? Since the answer is pretty obviously No, it's not fair to compare Lopez starting to what Thomas could have achieved as a starter had he done it more regularly. All we have to work with are those few playoff games against the Spurs, in which the difference was obvious.

Plus we all know you are bitter about being off on the kid at the beginning of the season

Hell no, I'm delighted he's proved me wrong! I just hope he can keep it going.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Do you mean 2004-05, or 2005-06? Thomas wasn't on the team in 2004-05, and 2005-06 was Stoudemire's microfracture year.

So, no, there was no better team with Thomas than 2006-07. That year was their best chance. The fact that you think a "2005" team with Thomas was better points to a fuzzy memory.



That's because D'Antoni didn't play him, even though many on this board were begging all season long for Thomas to have a bigger role.



The Spurs won the title in 2007. After squeaking by the Suns, they coasted past Utah in 5, then swept Cleveland in the Finals. The Suns were the only team that made them break a sweat. Who, exactly, were the intimidating bigs that the Suns were in line to face next?

I guess I need to give these stats again. Seems like we go through this every year or so.

2006-07 vs. Spurs:

Game 1: Thomas plays 13 minutes, Suns outrebounded by 14 (49-35), Spurs shoot 50%, Suns lose.

Game 2: Thomas starts and plays 28 minutes, Suns outrebounded by 1 (40-39), Spurs shoot 43%, Suns win big (only double-digit win by either team of series).

Game 3: Thomas starts and plays 36 minutes, Suns outrebounded by 8 (47-39), Spurs shoot 44%, Suns lose.

Game 4: Thomas starts and plays 26 minutes, Suns win rebounding battle by 10 (42-32), Spurs shoot 48%, Suns win.

Game 5 (suspension game): Thomas starts and plays 36 minutes, Suns win rebounding battle by 3 (42-39), Spurs shoot 40%, Suns lose in closing moments.

Game 6: Thomas starts but plays only 17 minutes (most likely worn out from Game 5), rebounding even (43-43), Spurs shoot 49%, Suns lose.

The Suns were 0-2 in the two games that Thomas played less than 20 minutes, and those were the Spurs' two best shooting games.

They were 2-2 in the games that Thomas played at least 26 minutes. In those four games, they outrebounded the Spurs overall (by an average of 1.0 per game) and held the Spurs below 45% shooting three out of four times.

To most of us watching the series as it unfolded, the difference was night and day. Had D'Antoni not stubbornly forfeited Game 1 by parking Thomas on the bench, the Suns would have had an excellent chance in that series. And there was really no one left in their way.



"By a mile" is rhetorical, but I agree that Lopez is better than Thomas offensively.



Where do you come up with this stuff? Lopez has played 30+ minutes in a game only seven times all season. Come on, at least don't directly contradict the facts when you're arguing your point.



Jeez, you don't have to tell me that the team is much better with Lopez starting. And no, I certainly don't need a link to some fanboi's blog. I'm perfectly competent to assess the numbers myself.



Let's put it this way: Do you think D'Antoni would have given Lopez this much burn? Since the answer is pretty obviously No, it's not fair to compare Lopez starting to what Thomas could have achieved as a starter had he done it more regularly. All we have to work with are those few playoff games against the Spurs, in which the difference was obvious.



Hell no, I'm delighted he's proved me wrong! I just hope he can keep it going.

All right you win. This isn't a topic I care all that much about

But if DA was really the problem, then it wouldnt matter if Thomas was here or not, he wouldnt have been used properly, right?