Steve Nash League MVP Again

[jibikao]

Do you guys think Nash browses basketball forums?

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Actually, "dirtier" defensive player. I used to follow Stockton. He and Malone really know all the little tricks. But I agree, Nash should learn how to use some tricks since he doesn't have the speed and power to defend.

True, but he still defended. Bowen is widely considered a dirty player, yet he hangs NBA All-Defensive Team awards on his mantle every year.

 

[elindholm]

Maybe not offensively, but Stockton was easily the superior defensive player.

I hope you aren't basing this on his steal totals. Stockton was a mediocre defender. That still puts him a cut above Nash, but I don't remember opposing PGs having particular difficulty scoring against him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

[can of worms]

I know all Suns fans will rejoice in this one, but I'd like to see arguments on why Steve should be a two time MVP winner when a guy like Stockton (and I have much hate in my heart for Mr. Shortie Shorts) doesn't have one.

See the numbers:

John Stockton
1988-89: 17.1 ppg, 13.6 apg, 3.0 rpg, 3.2 spg for 51-31 Utah Jazz.
1989-90: 17.2 ppg, 14.5 apg, 2.6 rpg, 2.7 spg for 55-27 Utah Jazz.
1990-91: 17.2 ppg, 14.2 apg, 2.9 rpg, 2.6 spg for 54-28 Utah Jazz.
1991-92: 15.8 ppg, 13.7 apg, 3.3 rpg, 3.0 spg for 55-27 Utah Jazz

Personally, I just don't see why Steve gets two, for similar or less numbers, when nutters stockton didn't get one. Yeah, Jordan was ballin in those days, but Kobe was ballin this year.

You have to conclude that Unfrozen Caveman Point Guard was lucky to excel when he did, or that the MVP has seriously lost its luster. I go with the latter here, given that Shaq during the championship runs got one, and probably earned one outside the ring years. MVP is a pop contest these days...with the best likeable player winning...of course, that would mean that Bron Bron Bron Bron would have won this one....maybe ESPN couldn't swing enough votes.

Don't get mad PHX fans...just trying to insert some perspective on history on one of the only three guards ever to win multiple MVPs, and why.

And damn I hate Stockton...and damn I'm glad that nutter never got the MVP trophy. Big laugh to the Jazz!!!

[/can of worms]

you can't really compare stockton to nash. situations are too dissimiliar. stockton never took a team from complete obscurity (and let's face it, going from the second worst record in the west to the best last year qualifies as such) and then turned around and took a team most thought would suffer greatly from turnover and the loss of their greatest scorer and garner lead them to the 4th best record in the league. yeah, those two items are subjective, but they speak volumes in regards to steve's play AND leadership both years.

in addition, you can't look at the numbers b/c the two guys played in different eras. how many pgs averaged double digit assists in stockton's days (not taking away anything from his incredible numbers)? kj, magic, tim hardaway, not to mention others who were probably in shooting distance of 10 dimes/game (isiah, price, etc.) whereas the NO ONE else in the league averaged 10 assists this year and few, if any, are in shouting distance of stevie nash's assist numbers. also, nash's rebound numbers (4+/game) are REALLY impressive for the little guy.

finally, DO NOT compare kobe to michael. there's that can o' worms you really opened up.

 

[D-Dogg]

finally, DO NOT compare kobe to michael. there's that can o' worms you really opened up.

Why, when you just said you can't compare eras?

 

[Chaplin]

Maybe not offensively, but Stockton was easily the superior defensive player.

Sure, if you want to split hairs. But overall, is Nash better than Stockton? That's a question that's really difficult to answer. Does Stockton's defensive superiority outweigh Nash's offensive?

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Sure, if you want to split hairs. But overall, is Nash better than Stockton? That's a question that's really difficult to answer. Does Stockton's defensive superiority outweigh Nash's offensive?

I think Stockton was the better overall player, but I also think Nash deserved the MVP this year. Right now Nash is about where Stockton was for about a decade, longetivity will separate the two in the eyes of HOF voters and such.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

in addition, you can't look at the numbers b/c the two guys played in different eras. how many pgs averaged double digit assists in stockton's days (not taking away anything from his incredible numbers)? kj, magic, tim hardaway, not to mention others who were probably in shooting distance of 10 dimes/game (isiah, price, etc.) whereas the NO ONE else in the league averaged 10 assists this year and few, if any, are in shouting distance of stevie nash's assist numbers. also, nash's rebound numbers (4+/game) are REALLY impressive for the little guy.

I'd like to see to ratio of assists-to-possessions for Nash the past copuple years compared to some of the guys you mentioned in the late 80s.

 

[slinslin]

Maybe not offensively, but Stockton was easily the superior defensive player.

Stockton was one of the dirtiest players and the new handchecking rules would really really hurt him.

 

[golfcardfan]

Stockton's career was very long and solid, but I beleive I would take Nash over him. Nash is superior offensively and just makes everyone so much better.

 

[golfcardfan]

Nash is a better floor general and can flat out score if he wants too.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Why, when you just said you can't compare eras?

no, re-read what i wrote, i said you cannot compare the NUMBERS of two eras. you can definitely compare the relative IMPACT two players had in two separate eras. and i think it obvious from winning percentage to mvps that michael had a MUCH greater impact on not only his team, but the GAME during his era than kobe has had today. mind you, this is not saying that kobe is not going to reach that level. to me, he's the scariest player on the planet to be playing against.

 

[jibikao]

You know, why do people compare Nash to Stockton so much? I know they are both "white" but really, their games are quite different. Jazz was never big on fast breaks. If you think Nash benefits from the system, you should watch the old Jazz's system. Everything they did were "governed" by Sloan. Stockton was perfect in that system.

I think Nash and Stockton are so different to be compared. Both are great at passing and both are above-average shooter. Nash has better offense IMO and Stockton knows how to defend. I think they both balance out in the end with the only exception that Nash has "better stories". He joined Suns and the team turned from a lottery to the #1 record team. I also think Nash has better leadership and is more "liked". I could be wrong about this but Stockton appeared to me like a very quiet guy who just "does his job" and that's it. I think in leadership category, Malone probably offered more than Stockton did.

 

[F-Dog]

Good for Nash--he punched his ticket to the HOF this year. I'm not worried about it getting to his head, though.



The funny thing is, next year the Suns might finally be able to compete for a championship, and they won't have a single horse in the MVP field. I guess we'll have to start acting like Spurs fans, and pretend that petty individual honors are beneath our attention as fans...

 

[F-Dog]

Oh btw, if you're looking for some statistical justification for Nash this year--

Tendex/48--2005/6

1) o'neal,shaquille      Mia   48.71
[B]2) nash,steve            Pho   47.01[/B]
3) ming,yao              Hou   45.45
4) garnett,kevin         Min   45.29
5) wade,dwyane           Mia   44.74
[B]6) james,lebron          Cle   44.46[/B]
7) ginobili,manu         San   44.42
8) duncan,tim            San   42.69
9) brand,elton           LAC   40.90
10) parker,tony           San   40.82
11) pierce,paul           Bos   40.53
[B]12) bryant,kobe           LAL   40.42[/B]
13) camby,marcus          Den   39.54
[B]14) billups,chauncey      Det   39.50[/B]
15) iverson,allen         Phi   39.43
[B]16) nowitzki,dirk         Dal   39.37[/B]
17) ilgauskas,zydrun      Cle   38.42
18) gasol,pau             Mem   38.37
19) paul,chris            NOr   37.81
20) kirilenko,andrei      Uta   37.50

 

[slinslin]

If Amare was healthy this season I am 99,9% sure this would have been his first MVP season.
We will see next season.

 

[tobiazz]

I just didn't like the implication that the Suns have no courage or heart. Sort of a stupid thing to say.

It's a [ridiculous] thing to say, but [keep in mind that] BJ can't be that smart. I mean he willingly uses his initials, B.J. He can't be that smart.