Still Mystified By 2004-05

[sunsallday]

^Thank you. However, even though I still think Amare is just as explosive, it is nowagimp's opinion so I have to agree to disagree.

 

[dodie53]

That's a fairly safe prediction--either way.

to be remembered in a good way

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Amare is the most dominant offense PF in the game currently. If he gets the ball within 15 feet of the basket, it's an automatic 2 points, and many times 3 points.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

And yet he is not as effective in the playoffs as he was in '05, in spite of being able to play his natural position with shaq around. Perhaps its because he doesnt use his newfound skills, instead he trys to beat his opponents with pure athleticism like before micro. There is no denying that amare has grown and become better in all but finishing and rebounding(he may have gone backwards there due to loss of athleticism, strength), but out on the floor I dont see the result. He doesnt dominate in the crunch against the best opponents in the playoffs like he used to. Maybe its just that amare needs to be a smarter player, as his days of just out quicking and out jumping other bigs appear to be over. Serious knee injuries like amares usually require an adjustment to a more finesse oriented game.

Or maybe its not amare at all, it could be that Nash cant be the MVP caliber nash, and amare cant be the terror he was in the lane area without shooters to get the spacing necessary for the P/R to be effective, and the lane to be free from floppers. If thats the case, not much will change this year as the suns have a mediocre roster of wing shooters, just not very good. when I look at the groups of

JJ(47%), JJack(46%), Q(36%), barbs(37%), jacobsen( 38%) and compare to raja(40%), hill(32%), barbs(39%), DJ(haha), tucker(haha), Diaw(32%) the wing position has taken a crap when it comes to the outside shooting threat. Small ball was dismantled effectively when the serious shooters were put out to pasture, and that was before the 2007-8 season started.

This is what I hate about stat nerds, years after the actual games have left our minds stat guys micromanage numbers as if all things were equal and come to black and white conclusions, it must be nice to throw out stats and not take into account the Spurs strategy skewed Amare's playoff numbers in 2005 and we played a horrible Memphis team.

Amare is a far better player now and far more dominating due to his ability to get to the line at will and make them, mentally he is more volatile as I think he quit on D'Antoni and still gets the yips in the 4th quarter.

 

[sunsallday]

Now those are videos of dominance.

 

[Irish]

I don't understand why you are so quick to blame his knees. Amare is as explosive as ever. He plays just fine he still gets up and blocks shots. I will buy the fact that we are missing our wing shooters, that may be hindering him yeah. But did you ever consider that fact that other coaches and other teams are planning to stop him and maybe they defending him a little better now that he has played a few years.

I can't take anything away from his strength, quickness, or even health. I need to actual proof that his knees are the cause, and I just don't see that. It seems you are the only one who does.

I think you are on target. Teams are fixated on getting their rotation over to cut off Amare going to the basket. Cartright's job will be to get Amare to see the defenses better and pull up more. If everyone played defense like they did four years ago, his results would be just as dominating.

 

[D-Dogg]

That was a fun team to watch...very fun. Even as an opponent, that was a damn good team. The suns system was new and took teams by surprise. If Amare had had a couple more years under his belt then, it would have been a title team, IMO. It had a little bit of everything.

 

[nowagimp]

I don't understand why you are so quick to blame his knees. Amare is as explosive as ever. He plays just fine he still gets up and blocks shots. I will buy the fact that we are missing our wing shooters, that may be hindering him yeah. But did you ever consider that fact that other coaches and other teams are planning to stop him and maybe they defending him a little better now that he has played a few years.

I can't take anything away from his strength, quickness, or even health. I need to actual proof that his knees are the cause, and I just don't see that. It seems you are the only one who does.

Yeah, OK, proof is needed that he didnt recover from an injury that no one else has recovered fully from. The only reason use stats arguments is that this board is stat infatuated. Anyone who has played competitive ball(no, not rec leagues), knows that most guys who win position battles down low dont stand straight up. Just watch the game, and unless the player is "shaq strong", the position battles are won by guys who know how to use a low stance to project power. Just watch KT, 235lbs, and that guy almost cant be moved down there. Or how about KG, when did you see him just standing stright up on the rebound or when playing post defense? When I see amare standing tall with unbent knees, I know he cant control space down there against a similar sized player in a low stance. If I know it, every NBA coach knows it for sure. It is so easy to get under a guy like that and take his balance and strength with it. But I am supposed to believe that amare just doesnt know that he needs to get in a low stance to control space? I'm LOL , if a 6 year pro doesnt know this he just doesnt listen. More likely is that the bent knee puts a load on his microfracture area(suns said as much) so he doesnt do it anymore.
I guess Im the only one here that notices how amare is pushed around on rebounds, cant hold his position on post defense against a similar sized PF, and how he doesnt get into a low stance at all anymore to fight for position.

 

[Chaplin]

I guess Im the only one here that notices how amare is pushed around on rebounds, cant hold his position on post defense against a similar sized PF, and how he doesnt get into a low stance at all anymore to fight for position.

Come on, you make it sound like he was this defensive juggernaut before the surgeries. Well, he's NEVER been a good defensive player, and never been able to rebound well, athleticism be damned.

 

[Irish]

It does not take a great detective to find that Amare's defensive technique is poor. Also, his lower body is geared for explosiveness rather than pure strength. After years of complaining that he was out of position at center and vastly superior as a weakside defender, you conclude he's not a good post defender.

Well, duh.

Let's hope Cartright can do a better job the Ivaroni at getting Amare's attention, but I am vastly more interested in him learning his rotations than failing to be another KT>

 

[Splinters81]

Yeah, OK, proof is needed that he didnt recover from an injury that no one else has recovered fully from. The only reason use stats arguments is that this board is stat infatuated. Anyone who has played competitive ball(no, not rec leagues), knows that most guys who win position battles down low dont stand straight up. Just watch the game, and unless the player is "shaq strong", the position battles are won by guys who know how to use a low stance to project power. Just watch KT, 235lbs, and that guy almost cant be moved down there. Or how about KG, when did you see him just standing stright up on the rebound or when playing post defense? When I see amare standing tall with unbent knees, I know he cant control space down there against a similar sized player in a low stance. If I know it, every NBA coach knows it for sure. It is so easy to get under a guy like that and take his balance and strength with it. But I am supposed to believe that amare just doesnt know that he needs to get in a low stance to control space? I'm LOL , if a 6 year pro doesnt know this he just doesnt listen. More likely is that the bent knee puts a load on his microfracture area(suns said as much) so he doesnt do it anymore.
I guess Im the only one here that notices how amare is pushed around on rebounds, cant hold his position on post defense against a similar sized PF, and how he doesnt get into a low stance at all anymore to fight for position.

Guess you should have been the next head coach since you think like a NBA coach. Everything you are blaming Amare's knees on, he has always been weak at. Look at the thread, YOU are the only one buying your crap. He was on an offense minded team, when has Amare ever like to bang for boards, hell when have the Suns ever like to bang for boards (pre Shaq). Maybe this year you will see a different Amare under a new coaching staff. We can only wait and see. But I will have to agree with the other to agree to disagree.

 

[Irish]

Amare is not a horrendous rebounder. He's been at or above 0.25 per minute since his injury. His tendency to get into foul trouble reduces his total minutes per game along with becoming very tenative, but his real problem is poor anticipation and defensive rotations.

This year Amare averaged 9.1 rpg in 33.9 minutes for a rate of 0.274. That is roughly the same as KT's career rebounding per minute. In 2006-07 Amare averaged 9.6 in 32.8 minutes for 0.29. Everyone raves about Marion's rebounding, but this season with the Suns he averaged 0.27 rebounds per minute.

With his talent, Amare should be an elite rebounder and he's not. But he's by no means terrible. You want a weak rebounder, how about Okur at 7.7 per game in 33.2 minutes for a per minute rate of 0.23 per minute.

BTW, during the regular season Shaq averaged 0.369 rebounds per minute.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

That was a fun team to watch...very fun. Even as an opponent, that was a damn good team. The suns system was new and took teams by surprise. If Amare had had a couple more years under his belt then, it would have been a title team, IMO. It had a little bit of everything.

It was definitely my favorite Suns team...they would come out and just bomb teams out of the building. I especially miss Q and JJ...Q gave the team a swagger and a toughness that they haven't replaced without him, and you just knew JJ was going to be a stud watching him that year. Losing JJ probably hurt more than anything else, he was a great compliment for Nash and brought a level of athleticism at the 2 that we haven't had since.

 

[Bayless2Budinger]

IMO, Amare is not physically back to where he was. He's not as fast off the dribble, he doesnt blow by guys like he used to. His strength in the knees appears limiting at times, and when youre fighting for position under the boards, weak knees are a major liability. Amare is smarter on defense now, but he doesnt move laterally as well since the microfracture. Its great to have amare back at perhaps 90% physically, but the '05 amare was the fastest PF in the NBA off the dribble, not so today. Amare in that '05 offense(w alot of shooters), was a more effective amare, more speed more room to operate. Last years amare struggled against the spurs in the lane in the second half of games, not so in '05. The amare of '05 shot 54% FG's, grabbed 10.7 rebounds, and scored 29.9ppg in the playoffs. Last years amare was 23.2ppg, 48% Fgs and 9 rebounds. If amare had better talent around him, it sure didnt help him shoot the ball better. And here is the killer, in '08, the suns were outrebounded by 2 rebs/game in the playoffs, but in 05 they only outrebounded the suns by 0.5 rebounds per game in the playoffs. the '05 suns with JJ had a nice shot, and if they had kept that team together and added a bench player o two, I expect the suns would have won their championship, perhaps more than one.

I dont know why you posted last seasons playoff stats. If anything those were a fluke because of the last two games where Dantoni showed his lack of ability to adjust and in return limited Amares touches.

Game 1: 33 points/7 rebounds/50% fg
Game 2: 33 points/7 rebounds/52% fg
Game 3: 28 points/11 rebounds/56.5% fg

Seems on par with his 05 playoff stats and dont forget that the Suns changed there offensive schemes when Amare got injured and they really have never been the same since then.

This last year compared to 04-05 for Amare

This year:
59% fg
25 ppg
80.5 ft%
9.1 rpg
2.1 bpg
46.1 fg% on jump shots

04-05:
55.9 fg%
26 ppg
73.3 ft%
8.9 rpg
1.6 bpg
42.6 fg% on jump shots

All this doesnt factor in that he got less touches this year either.

 

[Irish]

The video review thread should have eliminated concern that Amare lost his explosiveness.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f7/07-08-suns-video-review-114986.html

 

[msdundee]

Game 1: 33 points/7 rebounds/50% fg
Game 2: 33 points/7 rebounds/52% fg
Game 3: 28 points/11 rebounds/56.5% fg

There they are again, those beautiful numbers from Games 1, 2 and 3. Only problem is that it didn't matter, Suns lost all three. Then they won Game 4 with Amare only scoring 7 points, one of those two games where D'Antoni "failed to adjust and limited Amare's touches." Situation sounds almost Kobe-esque.

Amare and Kobe are both explosive and deadly on offense, almost unstoppable, and nobody denies that. That's what prompts the popular strategy used against Kobe and other high-octane scorers: Let (.....) get his, stop everybody else. The "feed the beast" plan can and does backfire, and yet it's the theme song here in just about every game thread. It may well be more appropriate this year since the other options aren't looking that great.

 

[Bayless2Budinger]

Game 1: 33 points/7 rebounds/50% fg
Game 2: 33 points/7 rebounds/52% fg
Game 3: 28 points/11 rebounds/56.5% fg

There they are again, those beautiful numbers from Games 1, 2 and 3. Only problem is that it didn't matter, Suns lost all three. Then they won Game 4 with Amare only scoring 7 points, one of those two games where D'Antoni "failed to adjust and limited Amare's touches." Situation sounds almost Kobe-esque.

Amare and Kobe are both explosive and deadly on offense, almost unstoppable, and nobody denies that. That's what prompts the popular strategy used against Kobe and other high-octane scorers: Let (.....) get his, stop everybody else. The "feed the beast" plan can and does backfire, and yet it's the theme song here in just about every game thread. It may well be more appropriate this year since the other options aren't looking that great.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Why you just went on a tangent about Kobe/Amare is baffling. We won game 4 b/c of our defense and because we were playing good defensively in game 5 we would have won game 5 if our offense would have been playing like it did in the first 3 games (when Amare was getting touches)

With Amare scoring a lot we lost the first 3 games but this is how we did as a team offensively.

Game 1: 50 fg%
Game 2: 46.3 fg%
Game 3: 49.4 fg%

Then we switched it up to giving Diaw the ball a lot and this is how we did offensively

Game 4: 42.7 fg%
Game 5: 41.9 fg%

Now lets look at the Spurs numbers:

Game 1: 50.5 fg%
Game 2: 48.2 fg%
Game 3: 56.1 fg%

Game 4: 39 fg%
Game 5: 39.3 fg%

Conclusion: Dantoni made some good adjustments defensively in games 4 and 5 but his adjustment of giving Diaw the ball more than Amare was just dumb.

 

[msdundee]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Why you just went on a tangent about Kobe/Amare is baffling.

How very condescending of you. I do have a good idea what I was talking about, and I'm sorry you found it so baffling. In in simpler terms:

Amare's touches and his point total, no matter how impressive, do not determine the team's success.

 

[Bayless2Budinger]

How very condescending of you. I do have a good idea what I was talking about, and I'm sorry you found it so baffling. In in simpler terms:

Amare's touches and his point total, no matter how impressive, do not determine the team's success.

Offensively, they do and its really not possible to argue differently.

Edit: I do apologize for anything that could be construed as insulting in my earlier post.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

How very condescending of you. I do have a good idea what I was talking about, and I'm sorry you found it so baffling. In in simpler terms:

Amare's touches and his point total, no matter how impressive, do not determine the team's success.

That's just crazy. First of all, when he has the ball, the team has the highest chance possible of making points, which unarguably increases the team's chances of success.

Second of all, name someone whose touches and point total DO determine the team's success. Kobe can have 50points and his team could still lose, Nash can have 18 assists and we can get blown out. DHoward can grab 25 rebounds and his team can choke. Your argument is quite fallacious.

 

[msdundee]

That's just crazy. First of all, when he has the ball, the team has the highest chance possible of making points, which unarguably increases the team's chances of success.

Second of all, name someone whose touches and point total DO determine the team's success. Kobe can have 50points and his team could still lose, Nash can have 18 assists and we can get blown out. DHoward can grab 25 rebounds and his team can choke. Your argument is quite fallacious.

On the contrary, that WAS my argument. I can't name someONE, nor can anyone else name someONE, whose touches and point total determine the team's success (and by success I do mean wins or losses). Kobe HAS had 50 and LA lost, etc., and that was the best example that immediately came to mind but your other examples are just as true. The point was that it's a team sport and ONE player can't win a game......and neither can a loss be blamed on any ONE player's lack of touches.

 

[nowagimp]

How very condescending of you. I do have a good idea what I was talking about, and I'm sorry you found it so baffling. In in simpler terms:

Amare's touches and his point total, no matter how impressive, do not determine the team's success.

Bayless has basketball defecit stat disorder, he looks at the game stats instead of crunchtime. The suns got amare going - and I wouldnt be suprised if that was POPs plan- and then stuffed the lane in the second half of those games. By that time amare was a bit tired having carried the load and was turned into a jumpshooter or turnover man. I suspect that POPs did this to freeze the suns other players, shooters. After all, if amare is scoring well, why should anyone else shoot? Then late in the second half the spurs took the lane away and packed it in. The shooters who didnt get touches werent hitting and the lane was clogged in the pick and roll. Ms Dundee, if bayless actually knew anything he would be looking at the 3, 4th quarter stats where amare shot very poorly when the spurs decided to clog the lane. For those of you who doubt POPs would allow amare to score, that was exactly the plan in '05 as stated by POPs: Let amare score and freeze out the others, then clamp down the D in the lane late. It worked like a charm again on the suns in the playoffs. And yes Ms Dundee that is why one player cant win it by himself, coaches have plans to reduce the effectiveness of the team by making one guy shoot too much. Even MJ Bulls had a worse record when he scored 40+ then when he scored between 30-40. The "feed the beast" fans dont know how to win in basketball.