Suns #3 FA destination

[Arizona's Finest]

I have heard alot of bitching in the past that "these aren't the Colangelo days" and "no one wants to play for Sarver" blah blah blah.

Personally I am tired of hearing that. Aschburner isn't the first to say this and he won't be the last. In fact Bill Simmons always puts Phoenix in the Top 3 as well. Fact is players like the weather, proximity to LA and Vegas, facilities and wide open style of play. Sarver or no Sarver.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...06/29/free.agent.ranks/index.html?eref=sihpT1

So consider this point moot. This is why we should keep Amare if the right deal doesn't come through. Provided Sarver and Kerr can pull their head out of their butts and actually recruit the guys to come here (which should be easier being those players are going to be the focal point of the offense from this point on - and don't forget they did it with Nash as both guys were involved back then) then we should be just fine for 2010 when all that money falls off the books.

I get that Sarver sucks and Kerr has made some bad decisions. But that doesn't change the fact that players like playing in PHX.

Phoenix is one of the 5 best franchises in the league and One of the 5 best destinations. Seems like the only people who don't see it are alot of the posters on this board....

 

[Rab]

I agree that PHX is a desirable place to play, however, I think the dymanics of the team and front office has changed. The overall national view of the Suns is that Sarver is cheap, is struggling outside of basketball, and desperate to shed salary.

With the Shaq trade and all the Amare rumors, PHX probably doesn't look as appealing as it once did. I am a firm believer that players will come here if the direction of the team is positive.

Not so sure one could say that right now though.

 

[Covert Rain]

I completely disagree Phoenix is a top 5 destination. Case and point when big names like LeBron and Wade come up next season there won't be one rumor saying they are interested in Phoenix.

Also, this team is not the destination it used to be with this front office. Did you forget about the guys that that Suns tried to sign using the MLE the last few times and those same players ended up signing with other teams for the same MLE or less?

 

[SunsTzu]

I completely disagree Phoenix is a top 5 destination. Case and point when big names like LeBron and Wade come up next season there won't be one rumor saying they are interested in Phoenix.

Exactly. If you can't attract the best free agents I could care less how many of the lesser free agents are intrested you are not a top FA destination.

 

[Duke of Oysters]

The more I think about the list the more I see holes in it.

Let's leave alone the Phoenix part. Miami @ #2? Houston at #4? I hear about Wade joining Lebron in NYC but not Lebron joining Wade in Miami.

Help me out here. What big free agent signing did Houston or Miami have? Am I missing something?

I would put it as #1 Knicks, #2 Lakers, #3 Bulls ... maybe put Phoenix with Miami, Orlando, Boston, and Dallas a tier behind.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I have heard alot of bitching in the past that "these aren't the Colangelo days" and "no one wants to play for Sarver" blah blah blah.

Personally I am tired of hearing that. Aschburner isn't the first to say this and he won't be the last. In fact Bill Simmons always puts Phoenix in the Top 3 as well. Fact is players like the weather, proximity to LA and Vegas, facilities and wide open style of play. Sarver or no Sarver.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...06/29/free.agent.ranks/index.html?eref=sihpT1

So consider this point moot. This is why we should keep Amare if the right deal doesn't come through. Provided Sarver and Kerr can pull their head out of their butts and actually recruit the guys to come here (which should be easier being those players are going to be the focal point of the offense from this point on - and don't forget they did it with Nash as both guys were involved back then) then we should be just fine for 2010 when all that money falls off the books.

I get that Sarver sucks and Kerr has made some bad decisions. But that doesn't change the fact that players like playing in PHX.

Phoenix is one of the 5 best franchises in the league and One of the 5 best destinations. Seems like the only people who don't see it are alot of the posters on this board....

Let's just ignore facts like questionable ownership and lack of direction, not to mention countless free agents and midseason buyouts deciding to go elsewhere. if this writer proclaims it, it has to be true. Maybe we can go nuts this offseason and see who is willing to take the big carrot, another veteran minimum deal!

 

[JCSunsfan]

Even in the article, he talks about how Phoenix is a top market because of the weather, location etc, but not because of the front office. Phoenix has an intrinsic advantage over other cities because of weather etc, but the front office has negated it with poor management.

BTW, Sarver has freely admitted that he actively participates in basketball decisions. Our problem is not the GM, it is the owner. He is the kind of guy who quits changing the oil in his car to save money. In the end, he has to spend way more, and the claims he is not cheap because he spends so much.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

When are you guys going to get it? Players don't think like us fans. As long as the team wins at a consistent level ( which we do no matter how bitter many of you act) what they care about is location, weather, and most of all money. At the end of the day the cash trumps all. It's why joe left and amare is open to staying. And if the money is there then they would rather do it in the sun where the night life is good.

The players don't think like fans and the only ones who hate Sarver are the fans here. Players don't care as long as he cuts the check. And if money is there then the players will come here.

But I'm sure all you jaded fans know more then the writers, analysts, and players....

 

[cly2tw]

Let's say they wouldn't come to Suns at a discount because of the weather.

 

[TJ]

When Colangelo was here, we were a Top 3 FA destination, especially after keeping the promise he made to a severely injured Danny Manning. Obviously, most key free agents want to get paid first, but they look at factors like a trustworthy front office, title contender, and a livable city. The problem is that our ownership has turned this franchise into a nightmare and no one is going to want to play here. The 2010 free agency pool is supposed to yield many great talents, but with the way things are going, the organization is going to have to overpay for mediocre players. Much like the Arizona Cardinals had to do seven years ago.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

When Colangelo was here, we were a Top 3 FA destination, especially after keeping the promise he made to a severely injured Danny Manning. Obviously, most key free agents want to get paid first, but they look at factors like a trustworthy front office, title contender, and a livable city. The problem is that our ownership has turned this franchise into a nightmare and no one is going to want to play here. The 2010 free agency pool is supposed to yield many great talents, but with the way things are going, the organization is going to have to overpay for mediocre players. Much like the Arizona Cardinals had to do seven years ago.

I disagree. The Suns still have great weather and a supportive fan base, which puts us ahead of a lot of teams in the league. Also, while our front office might be incompetent, they do seem to be trustworthy and forthright with the players. Even Shaq, who is legendary for throwing his old teams under the bus, said that Kerr was 1,000 percent professional.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

When are you guys going to get it? Players don't think like us fans. As long as the team wins at a consistent level ( which we do no matter how bitter many of you act) what they care about is location, weather, and most of all money. At the end of the day the cash trumps all. It's why joe left and amare is open to staying. And if the money is there then they would rather do it in the sun where the night life is good.

The players don't think like fans and the only ones who hate Sarver are the fans here. Players don't care as long as he cuts the check. And if money is there then the players will come here.

But I'm sure all you jaded fans know more then the writers, analysts, and players....

You are just being ridiculous here. Of course there are many attractive aspects of living in AZ and playing here. Everybody knows that, and nobody in the thread is arguing that.

Unfortunately, as many have pointed out, it's hard to consider AZ as a premier location because of issues like questionable ownership and lack of direction, not to mention countless free agents and midseason buyouts deciding to go elsewhere.


Where you split from most is your irrational support of Sarver. I know you aren't in AZ, but if you think coaches/players/writers/fans don't almost universally consider Sarver a below average owner, you're clearly not paying attention or reading much. There has been unending criticism of Sarver by all of the aforementioned sources.

 

[CardsFan88]

Weather is one of many factors, but it is most likely the smallest one. Winning organizations, and orgs that treat their players right go up on that list. We're no longer neither of those. If all we have is weather, and we're counting on that, we're in serious trouble.

WE know more about the Suns then the national media. We know more about the Suns than a player on another team. Also I bet they aren't hearing very good things from our Ex-suns about our front office.

Consider the lag factor. If $arver doesn't right the ship when it comes to his pennywise pound foolish approach, in a couple of years everyone will be where we are at now.

We knew $arver was cheap for years, but it is only THIS year that they started treating us like the media did (and still sort of does but way less) the cardinals. In fact I would say the Shaq trade was a turning point nationally on how we are covered. I don't think all the ramifications of $arver's actions are included in that column. It's mentioned, but I don't believe the weighting of it is right, as it is much more of a negative factor than many national media might believe. But it's getting there quickly.

Also ask the cardinals how many people took their money over the years.

They have everything the Suns had, (weather, location, practice facilities) except they had 'Losing franchise' perpetually written on their GM's foreheads, and 'cheap owner' on a sign on his back.

If you want to see how things COULD become just look at how the Cardinals got fa's in previous years, and you'll probably be close.

Through all the years, $arver has already been cheaper in more ways than 21 years of Bidwill. Say that again, and then realize, it's true.

So we have 'cheap owner', and we're about on the way for 'perptual losers'. Hey things CAN turn around, but I can also win the lottery. That doesn't mean I should buy a car based on the lottery I am going to win. That also means we shouldn't feel convinced in any way that $arver can build a team 1/2 as good as what he inherited.

Let's also not forget this is Basketball, not football which is played outside, or baseball (also outside) and with spring training here numerous players live here for about 6-8 weeks or so each spring. So one could say weather is MORE of a factor for those sports, and not basketball inside a gym. So good weather isn't going to help in basketball as much as those two sports.

But overall I don't see alot of players come to the Coyotes, or the D-backs recently. In fact whenever I see 'discount', it's the 'winning' that brings them here. Winning and weather go hand and hand. A player can go, great weather AND a chance to win for taking less money. Awesome. Just weather? Not a huge factor for most.

Some guys are about the money, but guys like Grant Hill came because of a chance to win. I would put most of the people we wooed in this camp.

Once the rest of the players figure out we're not what we once were it won't be the same. Basically when they find out what WE know, we'll drop like a rock on that list.

Luckily we live in area where even if the ultimate perception around the NBA is $arver = Bidwill = Sterling, we'll still probably be no worse than say 15-20.

But that current rating is still high because of the legacy, and is not accurate of what will probably be the perception in a couple of years. We're living off our reputation. Give it a couple years. Things will change.

Lest us not forget the past few years where we've been screwed even having 'good weather'. Hey remember Antonio McDyess. Not once, but TWICE choosing someone else over us. Denver over Phx, Det over phx. Great weather cities lol. Michael Finley? Nope. I forget the others, but there were others in recent years that turned us down. Hell even now this front office might target McDyess back again, hilarious.

I'd also like to apologize for using Bidwill in this post, because Bill Bidwill is no Robert $arver.

Cheap is also a mindset, one that $arver fully has.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think it's noteworthy that Tom Chambers came to Phoenix as the league’s first ever unrestricted free agent on July 8, 1988. I believe JC was on the ball and snatched him up shortly after midnight. Now it seems the ownership/ GM position is the Suns weakest link.

I would like Sarver/ Kerr to prove me wrong.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I disagree. The Suns still have great weather and a supportive fan base, which puts us ahead of a lot of teams in the league. Also, while our front office might be incompetent, they do seem to be trustworthy and forthright with the players. Even Shaq, who is legendary for throwing his old teams under the bus, said that Kerr was 1,000 percent professional.

I agree with this

You are just being ridiculous here. Of course there are many attractive aspects of living in AZ and playing here. Everybody knows that, and nobody in the thread is arguing that.

Unfortunately, as many have pointed out, it's hard to consider AZ as a premier location because of issues like questionable ownership and lack of direction, not to mention countless free agents and midseason buyouts deciding to go elsewhere.


Where you split from most is your irrational support of Sarver. I know you aren't in AZ, but if you think coaches/players/writers/fans don't almost universally consider Sarver a below average owner, you're clearly not paying attention or reading much. There has been unending criticism of Sarver by all of the aforementioned sources.

I don't irrationally support Sarver. I just think that he is a novice at being an owner. I don't think he Is cheap. The reason they sold draft picks because they naively belived they were close to a ring and didn't feel like young picks would contribute. Was that stupid in hindsight? Absolutely. LA did the same thing this year. San antonio did it a couple years ago as well. Phoenix just thought they were closer then they were.

My point is I don't think Sarver is cheap - in fact we are top 8 in payroll every year he has been here. Be just doesn't know what he's doing. Back to my original point. Players don't care if Sarver is stupid with his money. They just want to be the beneficiary when he does spend. And players do care about weather and how much a team getson TV. Phoenix has both. Maybe of the suns sink into the abyss and win 30 games for the next three years then that changes. Until then if the money us right the players will come.

As bad as it seems now this close up this ain't minny or Memphis...

 

[SunsTzu]

But I'm sure all you jaded fans know more then the writers, analysts, and players....

Which players? Certainly not Finley, Gooden, Joe Smith, PJ Brown, Sam Cassell or Gary Payton. All guys who chose other places when money wasn't a factor and half of whom turned the Suns down when they actually were a title contender.

But there is a chance we'll see who is right a year from now since there is a strong chance the team will have more than enough money to offer 2 max contracts in what will likely be the deepest FA class in history. My guess is it will be similar to the 2000 Bulls who made offers for TD, Hill and TMac but came away with overpaying Eddie Robinson.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Which players? Certainly not Finley, Gooden, Joe Smith, PJ Brown, Sam Cassell or Gary Payton. All guys who chose other places when money wasn't a factor and half of whom turned the Suns down when they actually were a title contender.

But there is a chance we'll see who is right a year from now since there is a strong chance the team will have more than enough money to offer 2 max contracts in what will likely be the deepest FA class in history. My guess is it will be similar to the 2000 Bulls who made offers for TD, Hill and TMac but came away with overpaying Eddie Robinson.

Those players you listed are older minimum guys who only priortize teams that they think are going to get a ring. All of those guys went somewhere they thought were better chances to win then Phoenix. And for all of those instances Grant Hill came here and he has been the best of all those guys. Those aren't what I would call your "typical" free agents who are playing the market and looking to get big deals.

Maybe I am myopic but I think we will be able to pull one of the top 5 guys with a max level deal.

My secret hope if Dwayne Wade as I don't see him staying South Beach just from tings I have read and knowing what the guy is about.

But thats a long shot.

My dark horse? Joe Johnson. Watch Sarver bend over backward to give him everything he wants and make him the centerpiece of our team.

Maybe I am dreaming but we will see. If we have the cap room the only places I could see as being better destinations for guys who want to be the man are New York and maybe Miami if Wade leaves. In 2010 we are going to have alot to offer in terms of team, spot light on the player, Gentrys "fun" system, being in a division that other then the Lakers has nobody, etc.

 

[elindholm]

My secret hope if Dwayne Wade as I don't see him staying South Beach just from tings I have read and knowing what the guy is about.

I believe that he and the Heat are talking extension while we speak. Wade's camp made the first move, so it seems likely that a deal gets done.

Joe Johnson. Watch Sarver bend over backward to give him everything he wants and make him the centerpiece of our team.

Oh goodie. Johnson is no more a franchise centerpiece than Stoudemire is. Less, probably. In Atlanta, Johnson was joined by some pretty significant talent in Smith, Bibby, Horford, etc. -- and yet his team still won only 47 regular-season games, otherwise known as 1 (one) more than the Suns, playing a weaker schedule.

The Suns can still get by on their long-standing reputation as a well run franchise, for now. In another few years, that will no longer be the case. The fundamentals of the roster now are worse than at any time since the drug scandal. And even then, they had Nance, draft picks, and Jerry Colangelo. Unless they can figure out a way to trade Stoudemire for something of real value -- and those doors seem to be closing daily -- they're in for a dark period indeed.

 

[Covert Rain]

No way does this team pull in a major FA. We couldn't even get some of the lower tier FA to come to this team over the last few years. We have no shot at LeBron and no shot at Wade. How are we a top destination?

Riddle me this. When is the last time a Superstar player signed with the Suns? No, I don't count Nash because Nash was not an star until he played in Phoenix. Was it Tom Chambers? I think we traded for all the rest of our star players. So where are these star players knocking on our door?

 

[Mainstreet]

No way does this team pull in a major FA. We couldn't even get some of the lower tier FA to come to this team over the last few years. We have no shot at LeBron and no shot at Wade. How are we a top destination?

Riddle me this. When is the last time a Superstar player signed with the Suns? No, I don't count Nash because Nash was not an star until he played in Phoenix. Was it Tom Chambers? I think we traded for all the rest of our star players. So where are these star players knocking on our door?

I don't see how you can eliminate Steve Nash to prove your point. He was a player in his thirties when he arrived in Phoenix with the same qualities that made him a Superstar. He just needed to be placed in this position to show it. Actually very few Superstars in their prime are moved as FAs.

 

[Covert Rain]

I don't see how you can eliminate Steve Nash to prove your point. He was a player in his thirties when he arrived in Phoenix with the same qualities that made him a Superstar. He just needed to be placed in this position to show it. Actually very few Superstars in their prime are moved as FAs.

I can easily eliminate him because at the time of his signing he was not viewed around the league as a star. There were not teams salivating over Nash like teams are over LeBron or Wade. He was not a player that just about every team in the league wanted on their list. So to say "see Steve picked us over every team out there" would be incredibly misleading since teams were not lined up out the door to get the guy.

I don't think at the time many teams considered Nash a Tier 1 free agent. Not even the Suns knew they would get an eventual 2 MVPs out of Nash.

 

[Mulli]

Interesting points. Wouldn't we need to see scenario where the Suns wanted to sign a superstar free agent and were not able because the star chose another city instead?

 

[Covert Rain]

Interesting points. Wouldn't we need to see scenario where the Suns wanted to sign a superstar free agent and were not able because the star chose another city instead?

Kobe. They wined and dined him and it didn't work. Kobe was probably using the Suns but that is the point. How many Tier 1 free agents have come out and said..."I would love to play in Phoenix" when he has been on the open market....then we signed him?

Phoenix is a great city IMO but it's not like our city has been a revolving door for tier 1 free agents. Most of the tier 1 FA that have come through Phoenix have either been acquired through a trade or home grown through the draft.

 

[Mainstreet]

I can easily eliminate him because at the time of his signing he was not viewed around the league as a star. There were not teams salivating over Nash like teams are over LeBron or Wade. He was not a player that just about every team in the league wanted on their list. So to say "see Steve picked us over every team out there" would be incredibly misleading since teams were not lined up out the door to get the guy like a Lebron or Wade.

I don't think at the time many teams considered Nash a Tier 1 free agent.

So if you find a chunk of gold in a pit of gravel, it's not gold. If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it fall, it still makes a sound.

DA considered Nash a tier 1 FA. Cuban didn't. Who was right? If other teams didn't recognize star quality that's their problem.

 

[Covert Rain]

So if you find a chunk of gold in a pit of gravel, it's not gold. If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it fall, it still makes a sound.

DA considered Nash a tier 1 FA. Cuban didn't. Who was right?

You are completely missing the point. This thread was not about finding diamonds in the rough. This thread was about comparing Phoenix to other cities in the running for tier 1 free agents. If Phoenix was the only one that thought Nash was a tier 1 free agent...who exactly where they competing against and how is that a good example?

What we are looking for are examples where Phoenix was competing with other teams for a player universally thought of as a Tier 1 free agent and that player came here.