Suns are going to be screwed this off season! Or will they?

[cly2tw]

I agree! One of the best players on realgm per salary is Marion! Everyone ******* about his salary, but in basketball terms, he isn't paid as much as a lot of guys I think he's better than. Does that make sense?

No. Since no real NBA team would draft him in the first round, were there a hypothetical draft with all the NBA players in it and 30 teams drafting.

 

[Joe Mama]

I just disagree with the idea that Francis is more valuable than Marion. I wouldn't trade Marion for Francis.

Just registering my dissent.

You might not trade Shawn Marion for Francis. Jerry Colangelo and most of the Phoenix Suns fans might not do it. But I believe that the Orlando Magic would. Francis is going to put more butts in the seats. He is also a point guard (combo guard really) which is just a more valuable position than small forward. Steve Francis shouldn't have been starting to Allstar game for the Western Conference, but he is a very good player. Don't forget also that he had a great playoff series against the Lakers. He averaged 19 points, 8.4 rebounds, and 7.6 assists per game.

Joe Mama

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

The nice thing about Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson is that they are workhorses.

Joe Mama

That is the nice thing now. However, most players could be considered injury free or "work horses" until they get hurt for the first time....

JJ and Shawn are still in the early part of their careers. The fact they have been over played so much (especially shawn over the years) could lead to increased risk in 3-4 years.

(I agree at this point McGrady is a slightly larger injury risk, but I do not think it will be a big difference. As far as I know his back pain isn't caused by a structural problem, so it should just "hurt", not keep him out for long times.)

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm not entirely sure I see how this answers the question about whether the Suns are going to get screwed this summer.

My answer is, "hopefully not".

The main way teams get screwed is by paying too much - either overpaying free agents or giving up too much in trades. The other biggie is getting cute with the draft pick and going for a guy with a lot of potential who never actually does anything.

The risk is that they will end the summer without making any major improvements, but that is less of a risk than overpaying just to seen doing something.

 

[Yuma]

I'm not entirely sure I see how this answers the question about whether the Suns are going to get screwed this summer.

My answer is, "hopefully not".

The main way teams get screwed is by paying too much - either overpaying free agents or giving up too much in trades. The other biggie is getting cute with the draft pick and going for a guy with a lot of potential who never actually does anything.

The risk is that they will end the summer without making any major improvements, but that is less of a risk than overpaying just to seen doing something.

George, it was a situation like this that brought us Googs. Then to get over the top, Bryan C. thought he should bring in Penny. Penny may have played well, but NOT for the salary we gave him! I am getting the same feeling this summer that the Sun's may not be patient with the cap space they have developed. As other teams make trades and get headlines, I am afraid the Suns will screw themsleves. I would be happy if we didn't get any of the guys being mentioned at the end of the day, reamined under in the cap, and developed what we have, the #7 pick, and maybe Vujanic. I honestly would be more than OK with that. If we get a Dampier relativly cheap for a couple years while our centers develop, that would be OK, too. I am less inclined that we get Nash for an 8-9 million dollar contract. For that money, I'd rather watch our point guards develop, or wait until the next year to draft or sign someone. My ultimate thing is to see how Amare develops, and then lock him up if he truely is becoming a superstar.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Yuma, the cap space dissapears if we dont use it by next summer. By that time (assuming we stick witht the same players), JJ's extension will kick in. Then Amare's will kick in the following year.



Out of the FA class from this year and next, TMAC and Kobe are by far the top 2 possibilities. (They might even wind up being the top 2 of the decade, considering how old other stars will be when their current deals are up)

 

[George O'Brien]

George, it was a situation like this that brought us Googs. Then to get over the top, Bryan C. thought he should bring in Penny. Penny may have played well, but NOT for the salary we gave him! I am getting the same feeling this summer that the Sun's may not be patient with the cap space they have developed. As other teams make trades and get headlines, I am afraid the Suns will screw themsleves. I would be happy if we didn't get any of the guys being mentioned at the end of the day, reamined under in the cap, and developed what we have, the #7 pick, and maybe Vujanic. I honestly would be more than OK with that. If we get a Dampier relativly cheap for a couple years while our centers develop, that would be OK, too. I am less inclined that we get Nash for an 8-9 million dollar contract. For that money, I'd rather watch our point guards develop, or wait until the next year to draft or sign someone. My ultimate thing is to see how Amare develops, and then lock him up if he truely is becoming a superstar.

The key is to avoid getting caught up in the "excitement factor". Deals the generate excitement but don't make the team more likely to win a championship are generally mistakes.

The Googs and Penny situation was disaster created by BC's total mismanagement of the McDyess deal. He hasn't made any horrendous blunders since then, so I think he may have learned his lesson. I sure hope so.

 

[Yuma]

Yuma, the cap space dissapears if we dont use it by next summer. By that time (assuming we stick witht the same players), JJ's extension will kick in. Then Amare's will kick in the following year.



Out of the FA class from this year and next, TMAC and Kobe are by far the top 2 possibilities. (They might even wind up being the top 2 of the decade, considering how old other stars will be when their current deals are up)

You just add to my WORRY that the Suns will feel they HAVE to do something NOW. If we get stuck with Eisley, his contract comes of the books the following year, which would add space. In a year to two years a lot can happen. If JJ and Amare are worth their extensions, then it's worth the cap space going away because of them. If not, then we just do not extend them. JJ still has to be more consistent to take it to the next level. It's all mental with him. Amare I feel will be a stud. It's all in how his attitude develops. If he keeps his work ethic he could be a killer! If we heve to extend these guys, I'd rather do that, than make a stupid contract like Googs and Penny, just because we feel we HAVE to do SOMETHING! We still have Zarko and Lampe to see about extending down the line, too.

 

[George O'Brien]

It is very hard to predict what kind of trade offers will come for one of these three and four team trades that needs cap space. Right now no one is worrying about them because all the focus is on the drafts and free agency.

I would not be shocked if the Suns just sat on their space for much of the summer. I'm guessing that most of the free agents have a terribly inflated idea about what they are worth, so signing guys too early will mean overpaying.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The Googs and Penny situation was disaster created by BC's total mismanagement of the McDyess deal. He hasn't made any horrendous blunders since then, so I think he may have learned his lesson. I sure hope so.

BC has managed quite well, actually. He's been able to trade away players that we knew were'nt going to work, and to do it while other teams still thought they had value--I'm thinking of Tsak here, but the Rodney Rogers and Delk trade sure looks good now too.

I'm curious to see what the Suns would do with Amare, if they had the sense that something was developing in his attitude or life that they thought would be a problem. That would be a tough one.

 

[Yuma]

BC has managed quite well, actually. He's been able to trade away players that we knew were'nt going to work, and to do it while other teams still thought they had value--I'm thinking of Tsak here, but the Rodney Rogers and Delk trade sure looks good now too.

I'm curious to see what the Suns would do with Amare, if they had the sense that something was developing in his attitude or life that they thought would be a problem. That would be a tough one.

Don't forget Luc Longley! We got a decent center who's contract went away after a year, 2 draft picks, AND CASH! Luc shortly retired due to injury after that! I STILL think that's the best we have EVER got over on another team!

 

[Joe Mama]

Don't forget Luc Longley! We got a decent center who's contract went away after a year, 2 draft picks, AND CASH! Luc shortly retired due to injury after that! I STILL think that's the best we have EVER got over on another team!

Did the Phoenix Suns get multiple draft picks in the deal? I thought they just got the one pick from the New York Knicks that ended up going to Boston through several teams as part of the Antonio McDyess deal. Still, that has to have been one of the best trades so far. I remember that I was adamant that the Suns would never be of up to get rid of Luc Longley. I guess I need to remember that when I talk about Howard Eiseley. Anything is possible I guess. Although I don't think there's any way to get rid of Howard Eiseley in a positive way unless it is part of another multi-team trade.

Joe Mama

 

[Yuma]

Did the Phoenix Suns get multiple draft picks in the deal? I thought they just got the one pick from the New York Knicks that ended up going to Boston through several teams as part of the Antonio McDyess deal. Still, that has to have been one of the best trades so far. I remember that I was adamant that the Suns would never be of up to get rid of Luc Longley. I guess I need to remember that when I talk about Howard Eiseley. Anything is possible I guess. Although I don't think there's any way to get rid of Howard Eiseley in a positive way unless it is part of another multi-team trade.

Joe Mama

I remember for sure it was two picks, but I DON'T remember for sure if they were both first rounders or not. I am pretty sure one was. When I saw that trade announced, I almost felt the Suns hit the lottery! That was during Luc's phase where he would get 2 fouls in the first minute of each game and would sit most of the game out! Remember he had a restaraunt in Phoenix. I used to joke Oliver Miller ate there!

 

[Joe Mama]

I remember for sure it was two picks, but I DON'T remember for sure if they were both first rounders or not. I am pretty sure one was. When I saw that trade announced, I almost felt the Suns hit the lottery! That was during Luc's phase where he would get 2 fouls in the first minute of each game and would sit most of the game out! Remember he had a restaraunt in Phoenix. I used to joke Oliver Miller ate there!

I think I remember you joking about that. When that trade took place I was just dumbfounded. I could not believe that was possible. The craziest thing was the way the media blasted the Phoenix Suns for supposedly "helping" other teams in their division. The Phoenix Suns made out like bandits in that trade, and the trade really did not help those other teams much.

Joe Mama

 

[Yuma]

Here was the trade Joe, I was wrong about the 2 picks!

"In only the second four-team trade in NBA history, the Phoenix Suns acquired center Chris Dudley , a first-round draft pick from New York and an undisclosed amount of cash. Suns center Luc Longley went to the Knicks as part of the deal, which trade involved the Suns, New York, Seattle and the Lakers and contained 12 players and five draft picks."

I still NEVER thought we would get ANYTHING for Longley! NOTHING! Anyone watching the Suns that year could see what a bust he was!

 

[Joe Mama]

Here was the trade Joe, I was wrong about the 2 picks!

"In only the second four-team trade in NBA history, the Phoenix Suns acquired center Chris Dudley , a first-round draft pick from New York and an undisclosed amount of cash. Suns center Luc Longley went to the Knicks as part of the deal, which trade involved the Suns, New York, Seattle and the Lakers and contained 12 players and five draft picks."

I still NEVER thought we would get ANYTHING for Longley! NOTHING! Anyone watching the Suns that year could see what a bust he was!

Chris Dudley was actually a significantly better center for the Phoenix Suns than Luc Longley was. The New York Knicks gave them a first-round draft pick and the cash to buy out Dudley's contract after one season.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Chris Dudley was actually a significantly better center for the Phoenix Suns than Luc Longley was. The New York Knicks gave them a first-round draft pick and the cash to buy out Dudley's contract after one season.

Joe Mama

Sometimes the greatest "moves" are corrections of past blunders, but the Longley deal will always be one of the great steals ever. If I remember, that deals was amazingly complicated and somehow the Longley contract was needed to balance the numbers.

BTW, I can imagine a scenerio where the Suns might move Eisley. There is a lot of talk about complicated deals between the Nets and the Blazers. One move might work would be a deal sending SAR to the Nets for Kittles. SAR makes $14.6 million and Kittle makes $9.8 million, which is a difference of $4.8. However, if the Blazers sent the Suns Dale Davis for Howard Eisley, this would give them a cap savings of $2.4 million which is almost enough to bring the Kittles-SAR deal to within 15%.

The Blazers need a veteran backup PG. Davis has only one year left on his contract and be a useful inside guy to play while Lampe is developing. Davis watched his role on the Blazers decline substantially after they added Ratliff but the guy is still a tough defender/rebounder type.

It would take a heck of a selling job to pull it off, but anybody that can dump Longley should have no problem with this.

 

[cly2tw]

George,

why do we want to do the Davis for Eisley deal other than saving the last year of Eisley's which'd be easy to move then anyway? Isn't Davis' salary about more than 5mil higher than Eisley's? If so, we'd be better sign Blount for about 4.5-5 and move Eisley next year if necessary. Eisley can still make a good backup PG in this league.

 

[George O'Brien]

George,

why do we want to do the Davis for Eisley deal other than saving the last year of Eisley's which'd be easy to move then anyway? Isn't Davis' salary about more than 5mil higher than Eisley's? If so, we'd be better sign Blount for about 4.5-5 and move Eisley next year if necessary. Eisley can still make a good backup PG in this league.

Davis's contract is $2.6 million higher - $9 million versus $6.4 million. This means picking up a backup center for $2.6 million plus getting rid of $6.9 million off next year's cap.

 

[cly2tw]

Davis's contract is $2.6 million higher - $9 million versus $6.4 million. This means picking up a backup center for $2.6 million plus getting rid of $6.9 million off next year's cap.

I didn't know Davis' is so little.