Suns are the worst team in the NBA in points allowed in the paint

[sunsfan88]

Steve Albert mentioned this during the Rockets-Suns game and I didn't actually think it would be true but after looking it up myself, wow it actually is.

http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/oppshooting/?sort=Less Than 5 ft. FGM&dir=1

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/opponent-points-in-paint-per-game

This is honestly one of the main reasons why I think the Suns should let Markieff be the 6th man like was last season while acquiring a starting caliber PF who is capable of defending. Losing to the Rockets is acceptable because their a very good team but giving up 64 pts in the paint to a Rockets team without Dwight Howard is not.

Protecting the rim is so, so important. Len is developing into a decent shot blocker but Kieff is still a huge liability on that end. Not just him, overall even the guys off the bench for us allow opposing players to take turns throwing down monster dunks or layups.

Its gotta get addressed by Hornacek and McD for both the short term and the future.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

I don't know if I'm just noticing it in Suns' games and not in other NBA games, but the opposing teams just seems to get to the rim SO EASILY against the Suns - Meaning the Suns perimeter defense seems awful.

A MAJOR point of the Suns' guard depth this year was so the Suns guards' could play w/ MAX EFFORT every minute, knowing that if they're exhausted - there's a good sub to come in for them. That has not been the case this year for every guard on the roster - They simply aren't playing hard enough, they aren't consistently in defensive position, they aren't consistently attached to their man, they aren't battling through screens, they aren't mentally exhausting themselves by communicating, studying film, executing the game-plan (What the announcers said at halftime - That Coach said they didn't do anything that was in the game-plan before the game ... is INEXCUSABLE) - The guards are just lazy. PJ Tucker and Alex Len in my opinion are the only rotation players that consistently put in MAX EFFORT physically/mentally (w/ Dragic 3rd).

Gerald Green / IT play 20-25 minutes game - No excuse for them not to go hard 100% on both ends ... Same w/ every other player on the roster since no player is really forced to play 35+ minutes a night AND have the ball in their hands so much (since there's always multiple ball-handlers on the floor).

At this pt. though, I'm not sure it can be fixed because it appears the laziness (A lack of 100% physical/mental effort) is a habit ... The players/guards are simply not being held accountable for their actions/play - BY THEMSELVES ... Although Coach is at fault too - The players have to have the discipline to want to be as good as they can possibly be and that can only happen if they stop being soft and actually try to exhaust themselves physically/mentally !!!

 

[BC867]

A MAJOR point of the Suns' guard depth this year was so the Suns guards' could play w/ MAX EFFORT every minute, knowing that if they're exhausted - there's a good sub to come in for them. That has not been the case this year for every guard on the roster - They simply aren't playing hard enough, they aren't consistently in defensive position, they aren't consistently attached to their man...

It is evident that the playing time of the Guards from game to game -- Bledsoe, Dragic, Thomas and Green -- is based upon their offensive performance (with the exception of injury, foul trouble or technicals).

It is, and has always been, the trademark of the Suns.

They are playing max effort . . . on offense . . . to earn minutes . . . as encouraged by Hornacek.

With Thomas being our most prolific scorer in 4th quarters, he has to play Point Guard because of his size. It doesn't rest the other two Point Guards. It pushes them out of position.

And look at PJ Tucker. He is our starting Small Forward but, in the 4th quarter, he is a defensive specialist who steps aside for the 3-Guard offense. Or finds himself out of position at Power Forward.

Basically, except in Thomas' case, that kills the rested sub scenario that you were hoping for.

Whether a ballplayer or in private life, when you are TIRED you can compensate. When you are WEARY (being benched or playing out of position), it wears you down. Game after game.

 

[slinslin]

The stat is misleading...

The Suns are also 9th in scoring in the paint.. When you play at a high pace you get more fastbreaks and the opponent usually gets more fastbreaks too and a lot of those plays end up in a layup.

 

[Hoop Head]

The stat is misleading...

The Suns are also 9th in scoring in the paint.. When you play at a high pace you get more fastbreaks and the opponent usually gets more fastbreaks too and a lot of those plays end up in a layup.

So 64 pts given up to the Rockets in the paint without Dwight plus the stats to back they are terrible at inside defense isn't misleading at all. The Suns don't play at the highest pace, probably in the top 10 but almost all of the teams in the league play at a high pace. If you watched the games regularly you'd see it's not misleading and that's it a problem that needs addressed.

 

[Phrazbit]

The defense isn't good, there is no denying that. Green and Thomas are lazy in transition. Neither Morris brother are respectable on D. Len shows promise, and is improving, but as a one on one interior defender he is not very good and still commits a lot of bad fouls.

But, as usual with this board of late, blaming the 3 headed PG for this problem makes little sense. Our bigs, as a whole, stink defensively. Getting a "true SG" won't change that Markieff does not contest shots, that Plumlee looks lost, that Len picks up bad fouls and that no one amongst the bigs is an above average rebounder.

 

[AzStevenCal]

So 64 pts given up to the Rockets in the paint without Dwight plus the stats to back they are terrible at inside defense isn't misleading at all. The Suns don't play at the highest pace, probably in the top 10 but almost all of the teams in the league play at a high pace. If you watched the games regularly you'd see it's not misleading and that's it a problem that needs addressed.

I don't think you can point to one game and make any kind of claim but you're right, we go through stretches where our interior defense is horrible. Even adjusting for pace it has to be at or near the bottom in the league. It's at it's worst when Green and Marcus are on the court and it's at it's best when Bledsoe or Len are in the game.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

I don't think you can point to one game and make any kind of claim but you're right, we go through stretches where our interior defense is horrible. Even adjusting for pace it has to be at or near the bottom in the league. It's at it's worst when Green and Marcus are on the court and it's at it's best when Bledsoe or Len are in the game.

Steve

Don't forget Kieff & IT.

Even though I must say that IT does actually try on defense, it's just that whoever he is guarding just shoots right over him (due to his size) and he's also unable to fight through screens (again, due to his size).

No excuse for Kieff.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Don't forget Kieff & IT.

Even though I must say that IT does actually try on defense, it's just that whoever he is guarding just shoots right over him (due to his size) and he's also unable to fight through screens (again, due to his size).

No excuse for Kieff.

Except the numbers (or some of them at least) seem to show otherwise. I didn't do the work myself but borrowing from posts on RealGm, Keef is 6th out of 100 players (that qualify) for the 4 spot in defensive rpm. IT is a below average defender but not as bad as you'd expect, he's 59th out of 81. The real problem comes with Green who is 84th out of 84 and Marcus who is 81st out of 85. When Thomas plays with Bledsoe, Dragic, Keef and Len our defense is pretty good, as is the case when Tucker is in there and Len isn't.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

Except the numbers (or some of them at least) seem to show otherwise. I didn't do the work myself but borrowing from posts on RealGm, Keef is 6th out of 100 players (that qualify) for the 4 spot in defensive rpm. IT is a below average defender but not as bad as you'd expect, he's 59th out of 81. The real problem comes with Green who is 84th out of 84 and Marcus who is 81st out of 85. When Thomas plays with Bledsoe, Dragic, Keef and Len our defense is pretty good, as is the case when Tucker is in there and Len isn't.

Steve

Numbers often don't tell the story. The fellow you borrowed them from on realgm has actually said so himself that he doesn't watch most games, rather the highlights and then the advanced statistics.

Thomas with Bledsoe and Len is probably good because everyone else has to overcompensate for his weakness. Same with Kieff.

 

[slinslin]

Numbers often don't tell the story. The fellow you borrowed them from on realgm has actually said so himself that he doesn't watch most games, rather the highlights and then the advanced statistics.

Thomas with Bledsoe and Len is probably good because everyone else has to overcompensate for his weakness. Same with Kieff.

Numbers don't tell the whole story but you made this entire thread up based on a statistics that only considers "total raw" numbers that are entirely worthless without perspective.

Just looking at the defensive real plus minus for individuals of our team

Starters
Bledsoe (1.68 / Number 5 of 81 in the league at PG position)
Dragic (-2.05 / Number 86 of 104 in the league at SG position)
Tucker (1.85 / Number 7 of 85 in the the league at SF position)
Markieff (2.80 / Number 6 of 100 in the league at PF position)
Len - (2.42 / Number 11 of 76 in the league at C position)

Tucker, Bledsoe, and Len are what we expected ... all good defenders. Dragic's numbers can be expected. He is a smaller SG guarding bigger wingmen. Tough match up for him. Most folks aren't realizing that Kief plays pretty good defense ... best on the team and 19 out of 464 players).

Bench
Thomas (-1.60 / Number 59 of 81 in the league at PG position)
Green (-4.11 / Number 104 of 104 in the league at SG position)
Marcus (-2.51 / Number 81 of 85 in the league at SF position)
Wright (-2.05 / Number 94 of 100 in the league at PF position)
Plumlee (0.84 / Number 36 of 76 in the leage at C position)

The bench is a freaking disaster. Green, Marcus, and Wright are nearly the worst defenders in the league at their positions. To put this in perspective there are 464 players in the league. Green is number 463, Marcus is number 436, and Wright is number 417. Our bench is not a very defensive oriented group. Green is sad because he has size and athleticism. He's the scarecrow of the NBA.

Since Dec 15 the suns are...

2nd in points scored within five feet of the rim
3rd in FG% within five feet of the rim
13th in Reb% at 50.2, ahead of Memphis, LAC, Spurs, GSW, etc.

 

[sunsfan88]

Numbers don't tell the whole story but you made this entire thread up based on a statistics that only considers "total raw" numbers that are entirely worthless without perspective.

I have watched the games this season and even without looking at the numbers, I would have said we're awful at defending the paint.

Even accounting after accounting for fast break pts, the points in the point still rank among the NBA's worst.

Not sure why being a run n gun team gives the team an excuse to not get back on defense anyway. I watch a lot of Warriors games and I don't see them being a terrible team at giving up fb pts despite playing at a fast pace.

 

[Covert Rain]

Numbers don't tell the whole story but you made this entire thread up based on a statistics that only considers "total raw" numbers that are entirely worthless without perspective.

Exactly...watching the games gives you perspective. Seeing the team collapse in the paint, giving up a ton of extra shots gives you perspective. Seeing how the team rolls out undersized lineups to move the ball gives you perspective.

All of that is 100% related to the issue and the raw numbers. All of that is totally related. Those stats are the polar opposite of worthless. It's not like when someone refers to a PER # without other related stats to make a conclusion. Hint. Hint.

The fact the Suns are making a strategic choice to run and leave the rim unprotected doesn't invalidate the stat. It might explain why it's happening but it doesn't change the facts. It only says the Suns are using the same strategy of a best defense is more offense. They are banking on being better at running versus the other guy.

No title....struggling to get to the playoffs....struggling defensively to keep guys out of the paint....yeah...those stats are meaningless.

 

[Mainstreet]

Exactly...watching the games gives you perspective. Seeing the team collapse in the paint, giving up a ton of extra shots gives you perspective. Seeing how the team rolls out undersized lineups to move the ball gives you perspective.

All of that is 100% related to the issue and the raw numbers. All of that is totally related. Those stats are the polar opposite of worthless. It's not like when someone refers to a PER # without other related stats to make a conclusion. Hint. Hint.

The fact the Suns are making a strategic choice to run and leave the rim unprotected doesn't invalidate the stat. It might explain why it's happening but it doesn't change the facts. It only says the Suns are using the same strategy of a best defense is more offense. They are banking on being better at running versus the other guy.

No title....struggling to get to the playoffs....struggling defensively to keep guys out of the paint....yeah...those stats are meaningless.

If this is the Suns strategy on most nights it makes me miss SSOL. I mean if you are going to sell out for offense do it the right way. I've always thought defense could be played with a running style and that's what I expected from Hornacek's team.

 

[sunsfan88]

If this is the Suns strategy on most nights it makes me miss SSOL. I mean if you are going to sell out for offense do it the right way. I've always thought defense could be played with a running style and that's what I expected from Hornacek's team.

The Warriors have been doing just that all season long.

 

[sunsfan88]

The Suns are last in the NBA in second-chance points allowed with 15.5 per game and gave up another 22 on Wednesday night, including an Otto Porter tip-in that was part of his eight unanswered points that again pulled Washington within four with 1:17 to go.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...ig-lead-hold-on-late-to-top-wizards/22511337/