krispydude
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that is truly pathetic. it just shows how much talent this team has to win 6 out of those 7 games still. they would be nearly unbeatable if they could stay within 5 offensive rebounds of their opponents.
Suns at Bulls 11:00 FSN AZ
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that is truly pathetic. it just shows how much talent this team has to win 6 out of those 7 games still. they would be nearly unbeatable if they could stay within 5 offensive rebounds of their opponents.
green machine
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nashman
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^Dumb! Shawn Marion is an elite player and has proven his numbers over a career, Noah hasn't proved a damn thing. Marion haters just can't contain the stupidity they spew out!
Rab
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Man, could you imagine Marion's number if he could finish a layup though? He's great at dunking, but don't ask him to make a contested layup. 
krispydude
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Man, could you imagine Marion's number if he could finish a layup though? He's great at dunking, but don't ask him to make a contested layup.
^ the truth
Black Jesus
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haha thats great.
da_suns_fan
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I'd still take Noah for that Atlanta pick.
green machine
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Not to side track the thread anymore then it already is, but Marion and elite go together like Suns and defense.
Sure, every once in awhile you can make the argument, but more often then not you're just plain wrong.
#12 in double doubles
#22 in blocks
#17 in efficiency
#13 in rebounding
#12 in steals
#207 in turnovers (A paltry 1 TO a game despite being #37 in minutes)
Shooting 51.5% and 35% from 3.
I guess it depends on what your definition of elite is.
Interestingly, Marion is #46 in forwards in 3 pt shooting at 34.6%. That number is somewhat off due to guys like Bosh who have taken 2 3 pointers and made 1.
If you look at his makes, attempts, and shooting percentage you will see that his numbers are right at the likes of Kyle Korver and Antwaan Jamison. Maybe he isn't as bad at the 3 as I think.
Looking at volume shooters (at least 100 attempts) all of these guys are shooting at least 10% less than Marion (33.6%):
Stephen Jackson
Dirk Nowitzki
Tim Thomas
Andre Iguodala
Lebron James
Bostjan Nachbar
Gerald Wallace
Quentin Richardson
Matt Barnes
Jerry Stackhouse
Ryan Gomes
Out of the Forwards with at least 100 attempts, Marion is #21 in 3 point shooting.
Doesn't justify his ugly shot, but perhaps he isn't as bad as we thought.
If you look at his makes, attempts, and shooting percentage you will see that his numbers are right at the likes of Kyle Korver and Antwaan Jamison. Maybe he isn't as bad at the 3 as I think.
Looking at volume shooters (at least 100 attempts) all of these guys are shooting at least 10% less than Marion (33.6%):
Stephen Jackson
Dirk Nowitzki
Tim Thomas
Andre Iguodala
Lebron James
Bostjan Nachbar
Gerald Wallace
Quentin Richardson
Matt Barnes
Jerry Stackhouse
Ryan Gomes
Out of the Forwards with at least 100 attempts, Marion is #21 in 3 point shooting.
Doesn't justify his ugly shot, but perhaps he isn't as bad as we thought.
green machine
I rule at posting
#12 in double doubles
#22 in blocks
#17 in efficiency
#13 in rebounding
#12 in steals
#207 in turnovers (A paltry 1 TO a game despite being #37 in minutes)
Shooting 51.5% and 35% from 3.
I guess it depends on what your definition of elite is.
Elite to me is a guy who can be the go-to guy for his team. Marion is a glorified Ced Ceballos.
As long as Glorified equals better.
Marion is a much better shooter from the field and 3. He is literally twice the rebounder that Ceballos was (5 compared to 10). Ceballos also isn't even in Marion's stratosphere when it comes to blocks, steals, and averaged more turnovers.
So yeah outside of the fact that Marion is statistically better in every way I can see the comparison.
Some funny Ceballos stats in his 11 year career:
1. # of times he shot at least 31% from 3: 2
2. # of times he shot above 50% from the field in his career: 4
3. # of times he averaged more than 7 rebounds a game in a season: 1
4. # of times he averaged more than 8 rebounds a game in a season: 0
5. # of times he averaged more than 1 steal a game: 2 (1.1 and 1.2)
6. # of times he averaged more than .5 blocks per game: 0
7. # of times he averaged more than 1.5 assists per game: 2
Marion in a 9 year career:
1. 7
2. 3
3. 8 (just missed in his rookie year with 6.6 rpg)
4. 8
5. 8
6. 9 (Marion has never averaged less than 1 block per game)
7. 8 (just missed with 1.4 in his rookie year.
Sorry the Ceballos comparison is pretty rough.
1. # of times he shot at least 31% from 3: 2
2. # of times he shot above 50% from the field in his career: 4
3. # of times he averaged more than 7 rebounds a game in a season: 1
4. # of times he averaged more than 8 rebounds a game in a season: 0
5. # of times he averaged more than 1 steal a game: 2 (1.1 and 1.2)
6. # of times he averaged more than .5 blocks per game: 0
7. # of times he averaged more than 1.5 assists per game: 2
Marion in a 9 year career:
1. 7
2. 3
3. 8 (just missed in his rookie year with 6.6 rpg)
4. 8
5. 8
6. 9 (Marion has never averaged less than 1 block per game)
7. 8 (just missed with 1.4 in his rookie year.
Sorry the Ceballos comparison is pretty rough.
green machine
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It's more of the way he collects his points/stats. He gets most of his points off of dunks and layups created by others, not because he has exceptional offensive ability. He's like a garbage-collector type, if that makes any sense.
We're not going to agree on this one, that much I can see.
Ceballos never played the minutes that Marion does, and also Ceballos played on teams where he didn't have to put up the gaudy numbers. Marion plays on a team that leaves plenty of rebounds for him to collect and also has no problem with him firing up the 3 ball. Two players playing on teams with completely different philosophies.
We're not going to agree on this one, that much I can see.
Ceballos never played the minutes that Marion does, and also Ceballos played on teams where he didn't have to put up the gaudy numbers. Marion plays on a team that leaves plenty of rebounds for him to collect and also has no problem with him firing up the 3 ball. Two players playing on teams with completely different philosophies.
Well Marion's numbers have been fairly consistent regardless of system. It's easy to forget that in D'Antoni's era, but Marion has been through 4 PGs and pretty much done his thing. As you say though, a lot of that is how he gets his points. I just feel he did it better than Ceballos ever did. So points I will concede.
Defensively and rebounding it isn't even close.
YouJustGotSUNSD
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Yeah I never bought into the concept that Marion would go kaput if he was traded to another team. But his style of points/reb/etc are indeed opportunity stats. While you may downgrade the significance of how he gets them, I doubt he puts up his numbers because of nash/dantoni.
Thats not taking into consideration the concept that "anyone would get a stat boost when moved into the suns system"
Thats not taking into consideration the concept that "anyone would get a stat boost when moved into the suns system"
ASUCHRIS
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Marion is so much better than Ced it's not even funny. Ced was the ultimate garbage bucket player, a guy who could fill it up but who had no other skills. Ced was entertaining, and a hell of a scorer, but to compare him to Marion is a joke. In terms of how they score, and their scoring ability, maybe, but in terms of total players it's not even close.
mojorizen7
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The CED/MATRIX comparison - My 2 cents.
I believe that if Marion were put on a team with a subpar PG & without the run n gun style, he'd struggle to score 15PPG.
You've got to love Marions energy & hustle though....not too many NBA players can match him there.
As far as a general comparison i fully agree. Both are/were garbage rebounders(although Ced did box out more) & both get/got their points from put backs & 3 point shots. Neither are/were any good at creating a good shot in the half-court(although i'd give the slight edge to Ced). Obviously Ced wasn't much of a defender though. He was helpful at times from the weak side. Ced had a better attitude IMO.
Thats key.
Aside from the defense,i disagree on the rebounding issue.Green mentioned how many rebounds there are to be had with the current SUNS team & i agree. There weren't as many to go around when Ced was playing alongside Barkley/Miller/West. Ced went after alot of boards by staying active( much like Marion) but also by getting good positioning IMO.
I believe that if Marion were put on a team with a subpar PG & without the run n gun style, he'd struggle to score 15PPG.
You've got to love Marions energy & hustle though....not too many NBA players can match him there.
Sigh...
Marion scored 21 PPG with Marbury as his PG. Marion scoring stats are the same regardless of coach, pg, or system.
The lack of objectivity on this board is really sad at times.
Marion scored 21 PPG with Marbury as his PG. Marion scoring stats are the same regardless of coach, pg, or system.
The lack of objectivity on this board is really sad at times.
And Ceballos didn't spend his whole career with the Suns. The fact is he was a career 5 rpg player.
In fact, Ceballos only spent 6 of his 11 years as a Sun. He went to LA and Dallas. No he didn't play next to Shaq.
In fact, Ceballos only spent 6 of his 11 years as a Sun. He went to LA and Dallas. No he didn't play next to Shaq.
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green machine
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And Marbury's assist totals were always solid.
Marion has never played without a pretty decent PG feeding him the ball. Hell, these days when Nash doesn't play Marion is a complete mess on the offensive end.
nowagimp
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Thanks for the posts chris, yet more evidence that marion haters arent rational, its an emotional thing based on fans self-abuse. 35% from 3 is like 51% from 2, on average, enough to win with. He's no steve nash, but he's better than king james from downtown. And he does so much more than many of his contemporaries. Not everyone understands the value of versatile players in the team game.
nowagimp
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Chris, Its sad to have to point out an all stars skills and performances to his hometown fans. Ceballos and marion have very little in common as players. Few NBA professionals doubt that marion is a top 20-25 defender in the NBA, ceballos was more like a top 200 defender. Sometimes it hard for fans to see the obvious when they have a stick in the eye.
SO91
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How did this become a Marion haters/defenders thread? The question was whether or not Marion is elite. To me he's not, simply because MY definition of elite is the top 10 players in the league.
nowagimp
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Yeah that pretty decent PG didnt do much for amare, couldnt get him the ball when and where he needed it. Amare shot 47% with marbury(never had a year of even 50%) as PG and 57% with nash, a much bigger improvement than marion(47-51%). A 10% change in FG's by amare is just incredible after nash arrived. Marions stats are similar with and without Nash, except his 4% rise in shooting pct. If anythingmarions 3pt percentage has fallen with Nash, probably due to the necessity of him playing better help defense and running more.
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