Suns at Rockets Game Thread

[Cheesebeef]

Anyway,

When you look at the games that the Suns have actually had their top 7 guys the minutes are pretty reasonable. Unfortunately that has only been 4 out of the 10 games they have played.

injuries are a part of the game - every team has them. Not every team's coach refuses to even try to develop a bench so he can be prepared not to run his team into the ground in case of injuries.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Games where we had our top 7 guys:

Sonics: Hill 33:31 minutes
Lakers: Hill 27:01 minutes
Miami: Hill 37:24 minutes
Chicago: Hill 39:03 minutes

34:14 minute average. Is that number still too high for you guys? What figure are you exactly looking for?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

injuries are a part of the game - every team has them. Not every team's coach refuses to even try to develop a bench so he can be prepared not to run his team into the ground in case of injuries.

I am trying to think of another top team that was missing one of it's top 5 games in at least 60% of it's games. I honestly am not trying to be a smart ass, I am just wondering if any other team has dealt with the adversity as well as we have.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Games where we had our top 7 guys:

Sonics: Hill 33:31 minutes
Lakers: Hill 27:01 minutes
Miami: Hill 37:24 minutes
Chicago: Hill 39:03 minutes

34:14 minute average. Is that number still too high for you guys? What figure are you exactly looking for?

he should be playing 28-30 MAX IMO. The guy's SO talented, but he's GOT to be fresh come May/June - in other words, playing longer than he ever has in his ENTIRE career.

And the only reason his numbers are low there is because the Lakers blew out freaking doors in. I'm assuming you're with me and hoping there's not too many more games where Hill's not playing big minutes 'cause we're getting killed.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

he should be playing 28-30 MAX IMO. The guy's SO talented, but he's GOT to be fresh come May/June - in other words, playing longer than he ever has in his ENTIRE career.

And the only reason his numbers are low there is because the Lakers blew out freaking doors in. I'm assuming you're with me and hoping there's not too many more games where Hill's not playing big minutes 'cause we're getting killed.

Of course

If I had to pick, I would put Hill at 33 minutes. Hopefully Raja comes back and is effective because that is what will lower Hill's minutes.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I am trying to think of another top team that was missing one of it's top 5 games in at least 60% of it's games. I honestly am not trying to be a smart ass, I am just wondering if any other team has dealt with the adversity as well as we have.

Odom missed the first 5 games of the season I believe. They're 5-3. Dallas has missed Josh Howard for 2 games and Devin Harris for 3 and Dampier for 5. Denver's missed Nene for 5 games and JR Smith for 3.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Odom missed the first 5 games of the season I believe. They're 5-3. Dallas has missed Josh Howard for 2 games and Devin Harris for 3 and Dampier for 5. Denver's missed Nene for 5 games and JR Smith for 3.

Good enough

 

[Cheesebeef]

and Chris - you asked the question "I wonder if anyone's dealt with adversity as well as we have" up above, and I can say without question - no way. We have dealt with it great for right now - but the above question is also my biggest fear, in that it's DA's same thinking because all that focusses on is how impressive we've been RIGHT NOW, as opposed to realizing that running guys to ridiculously high minutes now might mean we can deal with adversity well in November, but who cares about that if they're gassed come May/June? A coach has to be able to see the forest from the trees and I believe that is DA's greatest weakness. All he can usually see is right now.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I believe the key to winning the championship this year will be securing the #1 seed. I want Dallas playing San Antonio in round 2. Some people fear the Jazz and Rockets, I do not.

That's part of the reason I am so happy with our start.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Though the way the freaking Hornets are playing, they might push Dallas down to 4 or 5.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Some interesting stats from EVT:

BONUS SHOTS

...
The Rockets are now 11-41 without Tracy McGrady . Houston took 38 more shots than the Suns (107-69) but made one less (43-42). ...

The Suns set season highs for points in the first quarter (37), first half (69), field-goal percentage (62.3) and 3-point percentage (52.6).

The Suns scored 63 points in the second half of their last meeting with the Rockets (last Apr. 16) Ending with the first half Saturday, they had scored 157 points over five quarters against Houston. ...

Steve Francis played his first game as a Rocket since April of 2004, getting a standing ovation when he entered the game. He missed eight of 11 shots and had eight points in 23 minutes.

 

[Louis]

I believe the key to winning the championship this year will be securing the #1 seed. I want Dallas playing San Antonio in round 2. Some people fear the Jazz and Rockets, I do not.

That's part of the reason I am so happy with our start.

HCA means nothing. A championship caliber team wins on the road.

Just ask SA if HC matters. They've consistently beaten Phoenix at home.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

HCA means nothing. A championship caliber team wins on the road.

Just ask SA if HC matters. They've consistently beaten Phoenix at home.

I didn't say anything about home court advantage. I said something about avoiding having to go through Dallas and San Antonio.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Yeah that was quite a fallacious argument there Louis

 

[Stargazer]

HCA means nothing. A championship caliber team wins on the road.

Just ask SA if HC matters. They've consistently beaten Phoenix at home.

I have to disagree here. After splitting the first four games in the series last year, having HCA for the final three games was a huge advantage. The suspensions robbed us of that advantage, and SA won at home. I agree champs often win on the road, but that doesn't mean HCA doesn't make it easier. I think being the top seed is very important for Phoenix this year.

 

[sly fly]

Chris do you really want a board with 5 thumbs up posts? If you want the site to have tumbleweed blowing through it, that's your perogative, but a) I'm pretty sure that ain't good for the overall health of the site and b) it's the freaking internet man... complaining comes with the territory. Now, if you'd rather not read that kind of stuff, you seriously consider turning off your browser, thus allocating your free time to do something more productive.

The constant bitching most likely comes from dweebs who can't chew gum and walk at the same time... much less knowing how hard the game of basketball is (especially at the NBA level). Some of you simply can't relate, and rely on your Xbox 360 to give you game experience.

How can you be a fan when being critical even when the TEAM is performing well? Like Chris mentioned, find something that's more enjoyable.

Be glad you have a stud team that can go into a Houston or Orlando and DOMINATE from start to finish. If you can't enjoy that, then find another team or hobby.

By the way, Mike D'Antoni's system is Steve Nash. Just like Phil Jackson's was Michael Jordan. KC Jone's was Larry Bird. Pat Reilly's was Magic. Greg Popovich's was Tim Duncan. It's a players league. Always has been... always will.

 

[sly fly]

My thoughts on the game:

1. It's official: We're spoiled. At the 4 minute mark of the third quarter, after a made Houston basket, Amare inbounds to Nash, who throws 3/4 court ahead to Marion (who isn't in a breakaway or anything, but has just a step or two on the defense), who slams it home. Elapsed time, 3 seconds (and again, not on a fast break, but on a made basket). It's the kind of play that would have people shouting all over themselves about "Phoenix basketball" in previous years. But now Tom Leander barely even bothers to announce the play, it's so routine. If Leander doesn't even get excited about it, we're spoiled.

2. Hill continues to shine. Someone compared him to JJ, but he's well beyond JJ territory, in my mind. A giant boost.

3. LB is also tearing it up this year, and seems to me to be a significant upgrade over what he was giving us last year this early in the season. To those who are wondering what we've added over last year, I would point not only to Hill, but to LB.

4. Our best offensive performance of the year comes with Bell on the bench. Makes you wonder. On the other hand, we also allowed a lot of points, so maybe Bell's defense would have made a big difference there.

5. Doug Collins on Thursday said that the Suns had played only 3 games with their top seven guys all in the lineup together. Since Bell didn't play tonight, that must still be true. To be 8-2 with only 3 games where everyone showed up is a great start, and seems to suggest that there's still a lot of room for improvement as people eventually get a chance to play together.

6. Have the Suns played a single close game this season (say, anything that came down to the final few possessions)? I've seen every game, and all I can remember are blowouts. Seems like a wierd lack of drama to these games. Sure, we're "letting teams back in," but not like we did last year.

Bring on the Kings!

Thanks for bringing intelligent conversation to this board. It was badly needed.

 

[Errntknght]

What puzzles me is how San Antonio can be astute enough to get the rights to Scola and dumb enough to hand him over to a division rival. Its too bad we couldn't have gotten him somehow but thank goodness he's not a Spur - put him in place of Oberto or Elson and they'd romp through the league.

It remains to be seen how he holds up through the rigors of an NBA season but he is impressive. I haven't seen such nifty footwork around the basket since Kevin McHale and he has terrific range, too. His passing and floor vision looked very good - a perfect fit for Adelman's offense, IMO.

I have to admit its not obvious to me what the best way is to use him and Yao together but I imagine Rick will work it out. Scola's scoring will take some of the load off McGrady and Yao - and the latter won't be under as much pressure to play big minutes. They've still got Dikembe to help with that, too, in certain situations. If Mike James and Luther Head could consistently play like they did last night I don't see how they could fail to be right up there in the WC.

 

[azirish]

Criticism of the Suns this season is heavily based on one game (the Atlanta game was ugly, but it was clearly a case of not being in Suns condition). It really doesn't matter what D'Antoni does, he's not going to win over the critics becase they want contractory things:

1. If they play bad it means they aren't any good any more.

2. If they play well, it means they are too focused on looking good and not winning the championship.

3. If they play guys extra minutes in games that are not part of back to backs, he's going to wear them down and will melt down in May and June.

4. If he plays backups who aren't impressive, it proves the team isn't any good anymore.

The whole problem is the "now or never" attitude. IMHO, there is not a lot D'Antoni can do in November that will have the slightest impact on the playoffs baring losing so many games they don't qualify. I'd like to see Strawberry or Banks get Pike's minutes, but I also want to see the team to get more confortable playing with each other which makes it hard to keep working new guys.

IMHO, the minutes will get back into line when Bell returns. There are very few teams that play more than eight on a consistent basis and Skinner is that eigth man. But for the end of the season, it is better to make sure Bell is 100% rather than risk re-injuring by coming back prematurely.

 

[arwillan]

Criticism of the Suns this season is heavily based on one game (the Atlanta game was ugly, but it was clearly a case of not being in Suns condition). It really doesn't matter what D'Antoni does, he's not going to win over the critics becase they want contractory things:

1. If they play bad it means they aren't any good any more.

2. If they play well, it means they are too focused on looking good and not winning the championship.

3. If they play guys extra minutes in games that are not part of back to backs, he's going to wear them down and will melt down in May and June.

4. If he plays backups who aren't impressive, it proves the team isn't any good anymore.

The whole problem is the "now or never" attitude. IMHO, there is not a lot D'Antoni can do in November that will have the slightest impact on the playoffs baring losing so many games they don't qualify. I'd like to see Strawberry or Banks get Pike's minutes, but I also want to see the team to get more confortable playing with each other which makes it hard to keep working new guys.

IMHO, the minutes will get back into line when Bell returns. There are very few teams that play more than eight on a consistent basis and Skinner is that eigth man. But for the end of the season, it is better to make sure Bell is 100% rather than risk re-injuring by coming back prematurely.

you're absolutely right. i think the long off season makes people so anxious to see the suns again that when they start playing again people find a way to either make them gods or take them out of the playoff race. as the year goes on things will stabilize.

 

[elindholm]

It really doesn't matter what D'Antoni does, he's not going to win over the critics becase they want contractory things:

1. If they play bad it means they aren't any good any more.

2. If they play well, it means they are too focused on looking good and not winning the championship.

3. If they play guys extra minutes in games that are not part of back to backs, he's going to wear them down and will melt down in May and June.

4. If he plays backups who aren't impressive, it proves the team isn't any good anymore.

Hmm. How about some combination of these:

1. The team plays really well, rather than playing only well enough to escape with uncomfortable victories over lousy opponents.

2. The team prepares for the postseason by focusing on the things that will be critical for postseason success, specifically defensive rebounding and interior defense, both of which have been entirely neglected so far.

3. The team increases its probability of a healthy playoff run by not overworking its fragile starters in the first month of the season.

I'll agree that the overlap between all three of those has some contradictions, but I'd be elated to see two of them. Right now, we're getting zero. One needs only to look at a mathematical rating system, either Sagarin's or Hollinger's, to see that the Suns' early success this year is mainly a mirage.

IMHO, there is not a lot D'Antoni can do in November that will have the slightest impact on the playoffs baring losing so many games they don't qualify.

I think that's completely false. Good teams often take multiple years to get on the same page defensively. Taking that task seriously in November would go a long way toward performing well in April and May.

There are very few teams that play more than eight on a consistent basis and Skinner is that eigth man.

It depends on what you mean by "consistent." Most teams have deep rotation players who see action when their team has a lead of at least 15 or so. Already this season, multiple opponents' commentators have expressed puzzlement over the Suns' regulars being on the floor at the ends of games that appear to be over.

 

[sly fly]

One needs only to look at a mathematical rating system, either Sagarin's or Hollinger's, to see that the Suns' early success this year is mainly a mirage

[/B]

You're joking, right? Good thing games aren't decided by Sagarin or Hollinger.

One only needs to have watched every game, and have seen the progress and why they're starting to dominate once again.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

you're absolutely right. i think the long off season makes people so anxious to see the suns again that when they start playing again people find a way to either make them gods or take them out of the playoff race. as the year goes on things will stabilize.

This and the fact that the Suns have been together for three years now so even the dumbest of fans can see the weaknessess. When you have a situation like Boston does now or like we had 3 years ago, the vast majority of fans won't even care about nit picking details and are just happy to see a change in direction, further, those teams hasn't/hadn't been together long enough to nit pick it to death like we do the Suns.

You also have a contingent here that is just stupid and would rather have marginal bench players be "The Man." Brian Skinner/Pat Burke/Marcus Banks posts come to mind.

Then you have the over analyzers who will ignore the big picture and look to any micro level data to prove their point, even if it's reaching and full of contradictions.

So in the end I just look at it like this, three starters are not fully healthy and the Suns are playing .800 ball, thier aquisiton of Grant Hill is starting to pay off despite the wishes of some, and they have already proven over the years they can hang with the best, the idea that a weak schedule taints the capabilities of this team and they somehow need to reprove themselves while resting their players for the playoffs is absurd.

 

[elindholm]

You're joking, right? Good things games aren't decided by Sagarin or Hollinger.

No, I'm not joking at all. Sagarin is a better indication of playing strength than pure W-L record. Future games aren't decided by it, but they aren't decided by W-L either. The Suns have had a cupcake schedule and they are not a top-five team right now.

One only needs to have watched every game, and have seen the progress and why they're starting to dominate once again.

I can't debate whether they looked worse at the start of the year, but having watched 1.5 of the last 2 games, I can tell you that what they are doing right now can't be considering "dominating" in any sense of the word. Chicago had a chance to make it a one-possession game with only a couple of minutes to play, and the Suns beat the undermanned, overworked Rockets only by running their starters into the ground.

If they are playing better -- and I'll concede that point, since I was out of the country to start the season -- it's only because they've fallen into the standard D'Antoni regular season traps of ignoring the deep bench and thinking that a 132-126 victory is perfectly fine.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

you're sounding like D'Antoni.

I'm sorry, but I "enjoyed the ride" last year. I want a damn championship and so does the other 99% of us on these boards. So expect us to be critical because it takes almost near perfection to get that title.

Most fans are bitching about things that won't win you a title. They bitch about nonsense.