Suns at Warriors 4-2-15

[slinslin]

Not like it matters, best thing that can come ouf of this season is getting #13 instead of #14.

 

[Finito]

Great game credit where credit is due.

Golden state is a fun team to watch but I don't trust a team whos bread and butter is the 3 point shot.

Really liked what I seen from Warren.

 

[mojorizen7]

Not like it matters, best thing that can come ouf of this season is getting #13 instead of #14.

No man's land. I wish this team would decide on a direction.

 

[mojorizen7]

Great game credit where credit is due.

Golden state is a fun team to watch but I don't trust a team whos bread and butter is the 3 point shot.

Really liked what I seen from Warren.

Well it's what they're doing on the other end that has them where they are. They force you to take bad shots and they do a great job on the boards.

 

[Finito]

By the way Shaq has ruined inside the NBA why am I watching him and his ex laker buddies. Seriously TNT.

 

[Phrazbit]

Yeah, TJ Warren does look really good. That guy is a phenom on the offensive end, and thats without him developing much of a 3pt shot yet.

Drafting Len in that minefield of a 1st round, getting Goodwin, who the jury is out on but juries typically don't last long on late picks, and Warren... even McD's detractors have got to take some solace in an impressive early draft resume.

 

[Catlover]

Yeah, TJ Warren does look really good. That guy is a phenom on the offensive end, and thats without him developing much of a 3pt shot yet.

Drafting Len in that minefield of a 1st round, getting Goodwin, who the jury is out on but juries typically don't last long on late picks, and Warren... even McD's detractors have got to take some solace in an impressive early draft resume.

The jury might still be in deliberation but they have to be intrigued by Archie's improvement so far. McDonough's reputation probably depends mostly on Len though. If he gets through his nagging injuries and strings some healthy years together this will be likely be viewed as a great group of draft selections.

 

[slinslin]

Yeah, TJ Warren does look really good. That guy is a phenom on the offensive end, and thats without him developing much of a 3pt shot yet.

Drafting Len in that minefield of a 1st round, getting Goodwin, who the jury is out on but juries typically don't last long on late picks, and Warren... even McD's detractors have got to take some solace in an impressive early draft resume.

There was a point when drafting Len looked better but we are again at the point where you can just shake your head and ask yourself how they passed on Noel the obvious choice.

Len right now is only the 3rd best center taken from that draft. With Steven Adams, Mason Plumlee, Gorgui Dieng not that far behind.

Dennis Schröder is starting to look very good.

And overall the draft does not look too bad anymore with Gobert, Giannis, Oladipo, Schröder, MCW, Dieng, Adams, Olynyk, Muhammad and other developing players like KCP, McLemore and Goodwin.

 

[slinslin]

The jury might still be in deliberation but they have to be intrigued by Archie's improvement so far. McDonough's reputation probably depends mostly on Len though. If he gets through his nagging injuries and strings some healthy years together this will be likely be viewed as a great group of draft selections.

Len must improve A LOT. Not just the injuries. Even when Len is healthy it will be questionable achievement to pick only the 3rd best player at a position with the #5 pick and the other 2 going #6 and #26.

 

[Absolute Zero]

Was watching this at a bar until halftime then left. There's nothing interesting or intelligent about this team right now.

You missed a hellofa second half, Suns played with a lot of heart and almost pulled it off

TJ Warren is a great bright spot for next year

 

[leclerc]

Can't understand why Bullock is ahead of Goodwin off the bench.

What the hell, coach. Kid needs consistent minutes to get confidence to make mistakes. The worst thing is young players with no confidence making mistakes. Look at Bledsoe throwing away the ball with confidence and still playing major minutes.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Len has seemed to regress, and its always something him. Foot surgery, then a finger (twice), then continuing foot recovery, then ankle sprain, now a nose. All seemingly unrelated mostly minor, annoying injuries.

You see the potential with Len, and sometimes it starts to really show, then he disappears for a while.

It seems to me that they need to design an offense for him to be involved, at least early. The early 90's Suns did that with Mark West. Usually the first two or three plays went down low to West.

 

[elindholm]

It seems to me that they need to design an offense for him to be involved, at least early. The early 90's Suns did that with Mark West. Usually the first two or three plays went down low to West.

I always disliked that. If you have a center who's going to be a primary offensive option throughout the game, that's one thing. But force-feeding someone to "get him going" is usually a self-defeating strategy. It's like a football team that opens the game with some token running plays even though everyone knows they're going to end up passing most of the time. Don't lead with a weak option just out of some democratic principle. Try to win the game from the opening tip. When was West ever a factor down the stretch? Almost never; in fact he was rarely on the floor. So what good did "featuring" him early in the game do?

 

[Catlover]

I always disliked that. If you have a center who's going to be a primary offensive option throughout the game, that's one thing. But force-feeding someone to "get him going" is usually a self-defeating strategy. It's like a football team that opens the game with some token running plays even though everyone knows they're going to end up passing most of the time. Don't lead with a weak option just out of some democratic principle. Try to win the game from the opening tip. When was West ever a factor down the stretch? Almost never; in fact he was rarely on the floor. So what good did "featuring" him early in the game do?

Me too. It rarely serves a purpose and it's an even worse idea with someone like Alex. Right now Len has neither a low post game or an outside shot (from short or long range). He has nice form and nice touch and should eventually be a real mid-range threat. But forcing the ball into him now isn't much different than throwing the ball away and we don't need more ways to do that.

 

[frankeegee1]

I didn't read anything about forcing the ball into him?

 

[Catlover]

I didn't read anything about forcing the ball into him?

I guess? But I'm not sure how you design an offense for him and send the ball down low to him the first few possessions without basically forcing the ball into him. I didn't mean to suggest we were going to make passes that aren't there, it's just that he is not yet ready to be an offensive factor and dumping the ball into him isn't going to change that. Besides, his ability to impact the game on defense is more than enough return from a young center like him. Worry about perfecting that part of his game and let the offense come when he's ready. He needs to get stronger and take a few hundred thousand jumpers before we worry about more than an occasional put-back or pick and roll. JMO

 

[Mainstreet]

I like for a center to concentrate on defense and rebounding as they progress early in their career. Then let the offense follow naturally. However, I have seen games where the Suns have focused on Len as an offensive weapon down low and he has performed well. Maybe the Suns need to work in some simple plays for him to run on a regular base and then go from there. Sometimes I think the Suns forget about certain players who make a bad play or get into early foul problems. For a time I thought Goodwin was turning the corner and then the Suns brought in AJ Price which disrupted his confidence.

 

[sunsfan88]

No man's land. I wish this team would decide on a direction.

Another middle of the pack draft pick (#13 or #14) and non playoff season for the 2nd straight year and for the 5th time in the last 6 or 7 years.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I really don't get why Goodwin isn't getting more run. In the last three games, he's averaged like 9 minutes per game after averaging around 20 during the winning streak. I understand he's REALLY unpolished, but this team ain't going nowhere and this is the time to start trying to develop him.

 

[Errntknght]

I know the discussion is about Len but you are all talking as though we had a coach that designed plays. With Markieff getting to line about half as often as he did last year, you'd think any coach worthy of the title would be designing plays targeted at getting him to rim at least as much as he did before. (I realize 'Kieff isn't working as hard to get there but that's what he needs to do whether he wants to or not, and said plays would a good way to tell him to get with the program.)

Heck, if you designed the play so that Len's man would be the natural guy to help against Markieff, then Len will automatically get involved in the offense via a play ostensibly designed for another guy. For example, a criss-cross screen by Len for Markieff would be such a play.

I've really had it with Hornacek. I just can't understand how he can overlook the fact that the offenses from his playing days that he's mimicing always had an elite PG involved and he isn't even bothering to have a bona fide PG at all. Cripes, the less creative your playmaker is, the more you need to design plays.

And Phraze, don't tell me the offense isn't the problem... well, it isn''t the only problem, but it sucks and one of the big reasons is Hornacek. I want to see lots of well designed stats if you're going to claim the Suns are a top six offensive team again. By my reading, they're substantially below par, closer to bottom six than top six.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I didn't read anything about forcing the ball into him?

I don't think it would take "forcing" the ball to him. We almost never pass inside to him. It seems like a well-rounded offense should do that every once-in-a-while.

 

[BC867]

Getting no respect from the refs as usual.

You're right, Slin.

But strong teams do no have to look for alibis. Alibis are explanations for failure, not a sign of success.

If the Suns didn't have a reputation for 3-Point Guard teams or small guys being pushed up a position to Center and Power Forward, we'd get our share of calls.

Bullies get away with more than their victims. Abusers get away with more than their victims. It sucks! But it is human nature.

Even in the NBA. It always has been.

 

[Phrazbit]

No errntknght, I'm not distressed about the offense. We're 5th in the league in scoring, we just scored 106 against one of the best defensive teams in the league. We win the game if a few of our guys didn't go 3 Stooges trying to secure an uncontested rebound.

5th in scoring, 13th in efficiency, but for most of the year they were top 10. We're 19th in 3pt percentage, the only team who scores in the same neighborhood as us but is worse from 3 is OKC. If anything our offense is remarkably good given our severe shortage of 3pt threats. If you put one guy who the opposition knew could hurt them from deep it would be huge. Instead we have a team that frequently gets open looks but cannot hit.

The offense is not amazing, but it isn't the problem. Our deficiencies are on defense and rebounding. The offense gets better with Len out but we get much worse defensively. The Morrii are both poor defenders, our center options besides Len are terrible on D, our most consistent guys on the glass are probably Bledsoe and Tucker. The bigs don't rebound and other than Len they stink at help D or rim protection.

We need to get better defensively, we need a consistent outside threat. The offense might not be the beautiful flow that we enjoyed under Nash, or the chaotic sprees of Dragic, but it works, it works better than the offense of the majority of the league. And given the personnel I have a hard time thinking that them not being an "elite" offense is the coaches fault.

 

[Catlover]

I know the discussion is about Len but you are all talking as though we had a coach that designed plays. With Markieff getting to line about half as often as he did last year, you'd think any coach worthy of the title would be designing plays targeted at getting him to rim at least as much as he did before. (I realize 'Kieff isn't working as hard to get there but that's what he needs to do whether he wants to or not, and said plays would a good way to tell him to get with the program.)

Heck, if you designed the play so that Len's man would be the natural guy to help against Markieff, then Len will automatically get involved in the offense via a play ostensibly designed for another guy. For example, a criss-cross screen by Len for Markieff would be such a play.

I've really had it with Hornacek. I just can't understand how he can overlook the fact that the offenses from his playing days that he's mimicing always had an elite PG involved and he isn't even bothering to have a bona fide PG at all. Cripes, the less creative your playmaker is, the more you need to design plays.

And Phraze, don't tell me the offense isn't the problem... well, it isn''t the only problem, but it sucks and one of the big reasons is Hornacek. I want to see lots of well designed stats if you're going to claim the Suns are a top six offensive team again. By my reading, they're substantially below par, closer to bottom six than top six.

For whatever reason, Markieff is not drawing the same kind of calls he has in the past. I would guess that plays into why he isn't going to the rim as often, he doesn't want to get clobbered and not get free throws. A similar thing happened with Rasheed Wallace. Once he drew the ire of the officials he also stopped drawing fouls as often as he should and he became less and less of an inside player as a result. Or at least that's the way is seemed to go down.

As for Len, how do you design and perfect plays for a guy who can never be counted on for practice or game? He's been in and out of both all season. I'm sure the coaching staff has their hands full just getting him to remember which end of the court he's supposed to shoot on. Basketball is far from second nature for this man, he needs consistent work for a few more years before he'll be any more than an occasional tease IMO. The sky is the limit for him but the sky is far, far away right now.

 

[Phrazbit]

I think the refs don't like either of the Morris twins and unfortunately I think they've brought it upon themselves. They scream at the refs even when the DO get a call. I don't think the refs go into a game thinking "screw those guys" but they're still human, with the never ending harassment the twins shout at the refs I doubt the refs ever feel like they owe the twins a makeup call (which happens a ton in the NBA).