Suns @ Bucks Tuesday Finals game thread 7-20-2021 - Game 6

[Ronin]

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[dscher]

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Kid can shoot like that from the outside and hasn't lofted at least a few during the playoffs?? Man, just to decongest the lane a bit would be massively useful. But, maybe and hopefully that will be used next year. Little too late at this point.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Not gonna lie........ Getting swept out of the finals after a 2-0 lead will haunt me for a bit.

Hopefully the fellas come back to life tomorrow night.

 

[Ronin]

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[82CardsGrad]

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I guess this sums up my earlier points... The Suns were at an average Potential Assists rate of 50.1 during the regular season. Over the past three games, that cratered to 36 and in Game 5, crashed all the way down to 29!
They also hoisted the lowest 3-point attempts of the entire season on Saturday (19).

I think the below comments from that article are again, zeroing in on what I've been saying about CP3 inability to consistently get the ball up-court without turning his back to Holiday:

"His goal most of the time looked like just getting into the paint and seeing what happened from there, as opposed to the more methodical approach of weaving around the midrange area. It looked good at the start of the game before he got away from it later on.
That last clip, Paul’s floater, is the best example where you can really see him trying to go downhill. He must consistently be this guy if his normal All-World caliber of point guard play isn’t coming out.

The extra giddy-up in the Point God’s step can go a long way in helping the Suns create more threes."

Very good article which, IMO, highlights that, while mountainous, if the Suns can make a few tweaks, they could pull this thing out! But will youth and inexperience, and CP3's challenges with Holiday, hold them back... Ok... pit is now officially planted in my stomach!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Correct. So, the Suns need to come up with an adjustment to lessen the impact of a one-man pressure that is having such a large impact on their leader, and as a result, their offense.
Again, the offense has been entirely disrupted since Holiday began to exert his physicality on Paul... wearing him down to the point where he's been unable to lead the team in the manner he had over the course of most of this season.
On Saturday, the Suns produced 119 points, which, one would see that and think there is nothing wrong. However, as we know, 37 of those points came in Q1. A quarter where Paul had 4 of his 11 assists.
Because Paul was kept at-bay by Holiday, "ISO Ball" ensued...Booker ended the game with 40 points, but they came on a whopping 33 attempts. Just as bad, the 2nd most attempts were put up by Chris Paul, who had 15... FWIW, Ayton had 12 attempts.

Conversely, the FGA's for the big three of the Bucks were much more evenly dispersed, with Giannis and Middleton each having 23, and Holiday with 20.

I think it's fair to suggest that the Big 3 of the Bucks are better, and have played better than the Big 3 of the Suns.
In the post season and particularly in the finals, it's really about your starters and to a lesser extent, your 6 & 7 players off the bench.
Over the past three games, the Bucks starters have outplayed the Suns starters, especially the respective Big 3 guys.

So as I've been saying, the mountain Monty and the Suns have to climb, is enormous. Not insurmountable... however, they have much more to overcome than do the Bucks.

Man you’re so pessimistic I think you see everything through shades of muck instead of a suns team who was likely two plays away from winning the last two games.

though he’s been outstanding defensively holiday has had one superb game on the other end, otherwise he’s stunk offensively. He’s shouting 39.8% overall and 26.7% from 3 for the finals averaging 17.6pts and 9 assists.

middleton has been up and down the too with 43.6% overall and 35% from 3 for finals with two games under 20. But averaging 25 per game

Conversely Paul has shot 53.8% overall and 48.4% from three in finals averaging 21 and 8.8. So he’s outplayed holiday offensively. Despite having a stinker of a game 4.

it’s tough to pick a second sun as book likely needs to be compared to giannis but that leaves a comparison of Middleton to Ayton which is kinda apples and oranges. I suppose if I do book to holiday then we gotta do Ayton to giannis and I think that’s where we learn where the big discrepancy actually lies.

so book has had percentages of 43.9 and 27% - below middleton but not by a huge margin. He’s also averaging 30 with a single stinker of a game below 20.

Giannis to Ayton will be ugly:

giannis 60.5% 32.2 pts 13 rebounds

aytin 56.9% 15.2 pts and 13.2 rebounds

Giannis’ 17 point advantage over Ayton is more than double the 8 point combined advantage of Booker/Paul over middleton/holiday. So that’s the big disparity. But otherwise I don’t think based on the actual play you can say middleton/holiday have outplayed book/Paul. And that’s without looking at

Correct. So, the Suns need to come up with an adjustment to lessen the impact of a one-man pressure that is having such a large impact on their leader, and as a result, their offense.
Again, the offense has been entirely disrupted since Holiday began to exert his physicality on Paul... wearing him down to the point where he's been unable to lead the team in the manner he had over the course of most of this season.
On Saturday, the Suns produced 119 points, which, one would see that and think there is nothing wrong. However, as we know, 37 of those points came in Q1. A quarter where Paul had 4 of his 11 assists.
Because Paul was kept at-bay by Holiday, "ISO Ball" ensued...Booker ended the game with 40 points, but they came on a whopping 33 attempts. Just as bad, the 2nd most attempts were put up by Chris Paul, who had 15... FWIW, Ayton had 12 attempts.

Conversely, the FGA's for the big three of the Bucks were much more evenly dispersed, with Giannis and Middleton each having 23, and Holiday with 20.

I think it's fair to suggest that the Big 3 of the Bucks are better, and have played better than the Big 3 of the Suns.
In the post season and particularly in the finals, it's really about your starters and to a lesser extent, your 6 & 7 players off the bench.
Over the past three games, the Bucks starters have outplayed the Suns starters, especially the respective Big 3 guys.

So as I've been saying, the mountain Monty and the Suns have to climb, is enormous. Not insurmountable... however, they have much more to overcome than do the Bucks.

Man you’re so pessimistic I think you see everything through shades of muck instead of a suns team who was likely two plays away from winning the last two games.

though he’s been outstanding defensively holiday has had one superb game on the other end, otherwise he’s stunk offensively. He’s shouting 39.8% overall and 26.7% from 3 for the finals averaging 17.6pts and 9 assists.

middleton has been up and down the too with 43.6% overall and 35% from 3 for finals with two games under 20. But averaging 25 per game

Conversely Paul has shot 53.8% overall and 48.4% from three in finals averaging 21 and 8.8. So he’s outplayed holiday offensively. Despite having a stinker of a game 4.

it’s tough to pick a second sun as book likely needs to be compared to giannis but that leaves a comparison of Middleton to Ayton which is kinda apples and oranges. I suppose if I do book to holiday then we gotta do Ayton to giannis and I think that’s where we learn where the big discrepancy actually lies.

so book has had percentages of 43.9 and 27% - below middleton but not by a huge margin. He’s also averaging 30 with a single stinker of a game below 20.

Giannis to Ayton will be ugly:

giannis 60.5% 32.2 pts 13 rebounds

aytin 56.9% 15.2 pts and 13.2 rebounds

Giannis’ 17 point advantage over Ayton is more than double the 8 point combined advantage of Booker/Paul over middleton/holiday. So that’s the big disparity. But otherwise I don’t think based on the actual play you can say middleton/holiday have outplayed book/Paul. Lopez and Tucker have combined to score 16 pts and 8 rebounds per game on nothing special shooting. Whereas Jae and Bridges have combined for 24 pts and 11 rebounds. So really it seems like the starters have completely matched each other.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Man you’re so pessimistic I think you see everything through shades of muck instead of a suns team who was likely two plays away from winning the last two games.

though he’s been outstanding defensively holiday has had one superb game on the other end, otherwise he’s stunk offensively. He’s shouting 39.8% overall and 26.7% from 3 for the finals averaging 17.6pts and 9 assists.

middleton has been up and down the too with 43.6% overall and 35% from 3 for finals with two games under 20. But averaging 25 per game

Conversely Paul has shot 53.8% overall and 48.4% from three in finals averaging 21 and 8.8. So he’s outplayed holiday offensively. Despite having a stinker of a game 4.

it’s tough to pick a second sun as book likely needs to be compared to giannis but that leaves a comparison of Middleton to Ayton which is kinda apples and oranges. I suppose if I do book to holiday then we gotta do Ayton to giannis and I think that’s where we learn where the big discrepancy actually lies.

so book has had percentages of 43.9 and 27% - below middleton but not by a huge margin. He’s also averaging 30 with a single stinker of a game below 20.

Giannis to Ayton will be ugly:

giannis 60.5% 32.2 pts 13 rebounds

aytin 56.9% 15.2 pts and 13.2 rebounds

Giannis’ 17 point advantage over Ayton is more than double the 8 point combined advantage of Booker/Paul over middleton/holiday. So that’s the big disparity. But otherwise I don’t think based on the actual play you can say middleton/holiday have outplayed book/Paul. And that’s without looking at

Man you’re so pessimistic I think you see everything through shades of muck instead of a suns team who was likely two plays away from winning the last two games.

though he’s been outstanding defensively holiday has had one superb game on the other end, otherwise he’s stunk offensively. He’s shouting 39.8% overall and 26.7% from 3 for the finals averaging 17.6pts and 9 assists.

middleton has been up and down the too with 43.6% overall and 35% from 3 for finals with two games under 20. But averaging 25 per game

Conversely Paul has shot 53.8% overall and 48.4% from three in finals averaging 21 and 8.8. So he’s outplayed holiday offensively. Despite having a stinker of a game 4.

it’s tough to pick a second sun as book likely needs to be compared to giannis but that leaves a comparison of Middleton to Ayton which is kinda apples and oranges. I suppose if I do book to holiday then we gotta do Ayton to giannis and I think that’s where we learn where the big discrepancy actually lies.

so book has had percentages of 43.9 and 27% - below middleton but not by a huge margin. He’s also averaging 30 with a single stinker of a game below 20.

Giannis to Ayton will be ugly:

giannis 60.5% 32.2 pts 13 rebounds

aytin 56.9% 15.2 pts and 13.2 rebounds

Giannis’ 17 point advantage over Ayton is more than double the 8 point combined advantage of Booker/Paul over middleton/holiday. So that’s the big disparity. But otherwise I don’t think based on the actual play you can say middleton/holiday have outplayed book/Paul. Lopez and Tucker have combined to score 16 pts and 8 rebounds per game on nothing special shooting. Whereas Jae and Bridges have combined for 24 pts and 11 rebounds. So really it seems like the starters have completely matched each other.

If being realistic (at least as I see it) is being "pessimistic" in your eyes, so be it... I believe the Bucks are the better "team." And, I believe over the last three games, this has been proven out.
I totally agree that the difference between these two teams is not at all the size of the Grand Canyon. That said, I do believe that, given the Suns shortcomings I have consistently raised, it will take a massive, near flawless effort over a complete 48 mins for them to grab a W tomorrow night.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If being realistic (at least as I see it) is being "pessimistic" in your eyes, so be it... I believe the Bucks are the better "team." And, I believe over the last three games, this has been proven out.
I totally agree that the difference between these two teams is not at all the size of the Grand Canyon. That said, I do believe that, given the Suns shortcomings I have consistently raised, it will take a massive, near flawless effort over a complete 48 mins for them to grab a W tomorrow night.

You’re entitled to your opinion. Other than Booker everyone played a poor game 4 and we almost won. So I don’t think we need this monumental near perfection to beat them.

 

[dscher]

If being realistic (at least as I see it) is being "pessimistic" in your eyes, so be it... I believe the Bucks are the better "team." And, I believe over the last three games, this has been proven out.
I totally agree that the difference between these two teams is not at all the size of the Grand Canyon. That said, I do believe that, given the Suns shortcomings I have consistently raised, it will take a massive, near flawless effort over a complete 48 mins for them to grab a W tomorrow night.

Pessimist/realist. Tomato, tomahto....

 

[Mainstreet]

There are other methods to bringing the ball up. If you go back to the first quarter of Game 5, he was often able to bring the ball up the court and not stop, turn his back and put the breaks on our offense.
Watch the way the Bucks bring the ball up... rarely will see any of their guards turn their back.

Chris Paul turns his back to a defender when pressured to protect the ball. There aren't many other options when he is handling the ball other than to pass, defer to another ball handler or use a screen to shake off the defender. He is not a speed demon where he can accelerate past a defender. If Paul is not pressured he is not going to turn his back to the defender... it's cause and effect.

 

[82CardsGrad]

You’re entitled to your opinion. Other than Booker everyone played a poor game 4 and we almost won. So I don’t think we need this monumental near perfection to beat them.

But... we didn't win Game 4. And we didn't win games 3 & 5 either. IMO, the reasons for those losses highlight the shortcomings of this Suns team - which clearly aren't so "short" given they had the 2nd most wins in the regular season. But, are "short" enough that in the NBA Finals, facing a slightly better team with loads more NBA experience, can be amplified and made much bigger shortcomings than they were in the regular season, or in the earlier rounds of the playoffs.

How we define "monumental near perfection" could be interesting perhaps... I'll say that if we see another game where Book puts up as high as 38% of all FGA's, he better have put up 50+ points... It would go a very long way if the Suns can truly get back to moving and sharing the ball. If they can even out the shot distribution, which in large part hinges on the ball getting up the court in a significantly more timely fashion than what we've seen from CP3 as of late, their chances for success go way up.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Chris Paul turns his back to a defender when pressured to protect the ball. There aren't many other options when he is handling the ball other than to pass, defer to another ball handler or use a screen to shake off the defender. He is not a speed demon where he can accelerate past a defender. If Paul is not pressured he is not going to turn his back to the defender... it's cause and effect.

I agree. That's my point!

 

[Mainstreet]

I agree. That's my point!

Then why are we talking about it. It's pretty obvious yet somehow he has had an 11 time All-Star career.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Then why are we talking about it. It's pretty obvious.

So obvious! Yet, some here don't see it as a problem... strange...

 

[Mainstreet]

So obvious! Yet, some here don't see it as a problem... strange...

What you ignore is the Suns would not be in the Finals without Chris Paul. Tell me, do you have a replacement?

 

[Mainstreet]

No one pressured Paul in the regular season, but the Lakers (Schroeder), Clippers (*$%&#$*!) and Bucks (Holiday) all have and he has sucked every time it happens.

Bridges was pressing Middleton full court a few times at the start of game 5, but he rarely brings the ball up the court anyway.

Don't tell me opponents never pressured Paul in the regular season. The Suns didn't get here on a magic carpet.

 

[82CardsGrad]

What you ignore is the Suns would not be in the Finals without Chris Paul. Tell me, do you have a replacement?

Huh?? Where am I ignoring that crystal clear fact?? This is specifically why I've been harping on this issue and routinely suggesting that Monty has a mountain to climb here. There isn't an easy solution to this problem. It was suggested earlier that having Book and Payne should more of the load in bringing up the ball... At this stage, I'd be ok with giving that a try as getting the ball up the court in time to give our offense maximized time on the play clock is paramount. Not doing so will continue to lead to more ISO-ball, and Booker taking the vast majority of shots, while taking other guys out of the offensive flow.
As the article posted by Ronin accurately pointed out, the Bucks are totally fine letting Book take 30+ two-pointers... as it minimizes every other Suns player.

 

[Mainstreet]

Huh?? Where am I ignoring that crystal clear fact?? This is specifically why I've been harping on this issue and routinely suggesting that Monty has a mountain to climb here. There isn't an easy solution to this problem. It was suggested earlier that having Book and Payne should more of the load in bringing up the ball... At this stage, I'd be ok with giving that a try as getting the ball up the court in time to give our offense maximized time on the play clock is paramount. Not doing so will continue to lead to more ISO-ball, and Booker taking the vast majority of shots, while taking other guys out of the offensive flow.
As the article posted by Ronin accurately pointed out, the Bucks are totally fine letting Book take 30+ two-pointers... as it minimizes every other Suns player.

The facts have been on the table all season. I'm glad you are finally realizing it.

 

[Ronin]

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[82CardsGrad]

The facts have been on the table all season. I'm glad you are finally realizing it.

C'mon man... see the below post. A post you 'liked" as a matter of fact. Stop with the silliness already.

Lakers @ Suns Tuesday Playoff game thread 5-25-2021 - Game #2

There we go Payne.

www.arizonasportsfans.com

 

[Mainstreet]

C'mon man... see the below post. A post you 'liked" as a matter of fact. Stop with the silliness already.

Lakers @ Suns Tuesday Playoff game thread 5-25-2021 - Game #2

There we go Payne.

www.arizonasportsfans.com

If there is any "silliness" it's on you.

 

[Absolute Zero]

 

[Superbone]

Man... EJ is SALTY on NBA Radio today.

Care to elaborate a little for those of us without access?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Care to elaborate a little for those of us without access?

he just sounded wayyyyy on edge. Extremely argumentative with his co-host (which is pretty routine) but also with callers. Seemed to have a hair trigger. Prob much like all of us right now.

 

[GatorAZ]

CP3 has to be in complete control of this game for us to win.