Suns @ Bucks Wednesday Finals game thread 7-14-2021 - Game 4

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Of those 3 regular season Laker games, Davis played in only one. And in that one game, he played 18 mins…
CP3 had a triple double in the third game… and had 10 assists in the second game.

My point is that Ayton, on offense, has a ton of room to grow and develop. And so, for now, he requires a facilitator like a Chris Paul, to play well and keep the offense flowing.. delivering the ball to Ayton in places where he can more effectively convert.

What exactly is your point again cheese? LMAO…

Cheese is talking playoffs.first three games against lakers when Paul was injured and awful. Ayton went 32-39 for 65 points. Paul averaged 6.7pts, 6.3 assists, and 2 TOs in those three games.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Cheese is talking playoffs.first three games against lakers when Paul was injured and awful. Ayton went 32-39 for 65 points. Paul averaged 6.7pts, 6.3 assists, and 2 TOs in those three games.

Got it. But, I didn’t think there was much debate about AD being less than 100% from the start of the series? By game 4, when he only played 19 mins… and sat out all of game 5, and played just 5 mins in Game 6…
I dunno… I’m going with AD was never right the entire series, his big offensive numbers in Games 2 and 3 notwithstanding…
Meanwhile, DA went for 14 points, 8 points and 8 points in the final three games of the Laker series… playing alongside a clearly compromised CP3.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Game 2? Where he had a double-double and a +10 +/-?
It was a game where he, and we, expected more based upon his great Game 1 performance, and what he had been doing throughout the post-season.
But again, my expectations were not that his offensive production would be sustained throughout the playoffs, as he hadn't been doing this at all during the regular season.

No excuse for a frustrating (not "bad") night... He could've been better. But was able to overcome his frustrations and played great in the last half of the 4th quarter. Great to see a young kid learn and grow!

Got it. But, I didn’t think there was much debate about AD being less than 100% from the start of the series? By game 4, when he only played 19 mins… and sat out all of game 5, and played just 5 mins in Game 6…
I dunno… I’m going with AD was never right the entire series, his big offensive numbers in Games 2 and 3 notwithstanding…
Meanwhile, DA went for 14 points, 8 points and 8 points in the final three games of the Laker series… playing alongside a clearly compromised CP3.

This is a pathological inability to admit you’re wrong. You’re going with AD wasn’t good... big numbers offensively and defensively notwithstanding? Lol. Did you even watch the first round? AD was fine and a beast in Game 2 and 3 in the playoffs and that’s when a lot of people quit on the team and wrote us off. Why was that? It was because AD dominated on both ends of the floor, averaging 34/10.5/2. And yet Ayton, with a clearly compromised CP3, going against one of the best big men in the league, averaged 21 ppg in that stretch.

AD tweaked his leg towards the middle of Game 4, after Ayton had already gone off for 21, 22 and 21 against him for three games ALL with Paul compromised. And it was in Game 4 that AD tweaked his leg and injured himself and got taken out of the game.

And then you say Paul was “clearly compromised” in Game 4, 5 and 6 and that’s why Ayton fell off? But Paul scored 18 points and had 9 assists in Game 4. You know... the same amount he did in Game 3 of the Bucks series where you say he played well. And CP3 was much worse in Game 1, 2 and 3 where Ayton had just gone off. And in Game 5 and 6, Especially Game 5, we were going nuts from 3 and Ayton only played 27 minutes in a massive blowout so it makes sense he didn’t have to score all that much. And Game 6 was the Booker game where he was en fuego from 3 and we went up 30 immediately.

It’s really hard to take any argument you make seriously when you don’t even remember what happened two months ago or just blindly decide to discount anything that goes against your argument with the reasoning of “I said so.”

It’s just not to much to expect Ayton to score more than a Tskalidis-esque 6 points in a Finals game.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This is a pathological inability to admit you’re wrong. You’re going with AD wasn’t good... big numbers offensively and defensively notwithstanding? Lol. Did you even watch the first round? AD was fine and a beast in Game 2 and 3 in the playoffs and that’s when a lot of people quit on the team and wrote us off. Why was that? It was because AD dominated on both ends of the floor, averaging 34/10.5/2. And yet Ayton, with a clearly compromised CP3, going against one of the best big men in the league, averaged 21 ppg in that stretch.

AD tweaked his leg towards the middle of Game 4, after Ayton had already gone off for 21, 22 and 21 against him for three games ALL with Paul compromised. And it was in Game 4 that AD tweaked his leg and injured himself and got taken out of the game.

And then you say Paul was “clearly compromised” in Game 4, 5 and 6 and that’s why Ayton fell off? But Paul scored 18 points and had 9 assists in Game 4. You know... the same amount he did in Game 3 of the Bucks series where you say he played well. And CP3 was much worse in Game 1, 2 and 3 where Ayton had just gone off. And in Game 5 and 6, Especially Game 5, we were going nuts from 3 and Ayton only played 27 minutes in a massive blowout so it makes sense he didn’t have to score all that much. And Game 6 was the Booker game where he was en fuego from 3 and we went up 30 immediately.

It’s really hard to take any argument you make seriously when you don’t even remember what happened two months ago or just blindly decide to discount anything that goes against your argument with the reasoning of “I said so.”

It’s just not to much to expect Ayton to score more than a Tskalidis-esque 6 points in a Finals game.

I think you could make a case that Lebron wasn't at his best throughout that series but Davis was Davis until game 4 - at that point we were trailing in the series 2-1 but we were outplaying them before Anthony hurt himself. Unlike Lebron, who only played 4 games total in the 2 months prior to our series, AD had rounded into form having returned from injury a month earlier.

 

[82CardsGrad]

This is a pathological inability to admit you’re wrong.

Ironically… these are the exact same words that come to mind as I debate you!

It’s just not to much to expect Ayton to score more than a Tskalidis-esque 6 points in a Finals game.

No… it’s certainly not.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think you could make a case that Lebron wasn't at his best throughout that series but Davis was Davis until game 4 - we were trailing in the series 2-1 but we were outplaying them before Anthony hurt himself. Unlike Lebron, who only played 4 games total in the 2 months prior to our series, AD had rounded into form having returned from injury a month earlier.

yup. And the reality of the playoffs is that outside of the Denver series, CP3 has been really up and down whether that has been because of injury, Covid or not playing well... but through all of it, Ayton has found ways more often than not to make some kind of impact on offense.

he didn’t on Wednesday and that hurt on a night where no one but Booker came to play on offense.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ironically… these are the exact same words that come to mind as I debate you!



No… it’s certainly not.

here’s the difference... in our “debate”, I provided actual facts that back up my argument and refuted yours. Your response back was to make things up that Davis was never healthy and totally ignore that Ayton’s been successful on offense against all comers in the playoffs despite CP3 being compromised multiple times and you’re ultimate argument is “you’re wrong despite the facts you laid out... because I said so.”

It’s okay to admit you’re wrong. I was WAY wrong earlier in the playoffs when I thought we should have benched CP3 before Game 4 of the Lakers series. It didn’t kill me tp admit that. I swear it won’t kill you to admit it here.

 

[Covert Rain]

My point is that Ayton, on offense, has a ton of room to grow and develop. And so, for now, he requires a facilitator like a Chris Paul, to play well and keep the offense flowing.. delivering the ball to Ayton in places where he can more effectively convert.

This. He has never been asked to be a guy you throw the ball down into and let him go to work. His game is dependent on other players. Ayton has said it himself that his game changed when Paul got here. Paul playing like he has impacted Ayton. Like you said he needs to get the ball delivered in places that allow him to convert. When his hands are off we see those results. When he has the ball in the paint the announcers throughout the playoffs have said he needs to learn to keep the ball high verses bringing it down. When he tries to back someone down he doesn't appear to have spin move and unless under the basket usually passes out. Ayton can get so much better for sure. I am excited because I think if he develops that part of his game he is going to be almost unstoppable on most nights.

 

[82CardsGrad]

here’s the difference... in our “debate”, I provided actual facts that back up my argument and refuted yours. Your response back was to make things up that Davis was never healthy and totally ignore that Ayton’s been successful on offense against all comers in the playoffs despite CP3 being compromised multiple times and you’re ultimate argument is “you’re wrong despite the facts you laid out... because I said so.”

It’s okay to admit you’re wrong. I was WAY wrong earlier in the playoffs when I thought we should have benched CP3 before Game 4 of the Lakers series. It didn’t kill me tp admit that. I swear it won’t kill you to admit it here.

Admit what exactly cheese?? That AD was "healthy" prior to game 4? I'm not gonna do that. Yes, he hurt himself further in game 4, but IMHO, I believe he was battling through health issues from the start of the series and was not 100% at any time in playoffs. I don't even think he was fully 100% when he returned to play in the regular season.
Further, while Ayton, on occasion and due to his immense talent, has been able to scratch out some offense in games when Paul was out or ineffective, I remain firm in my position, that Ayton requires Paul, or any other good-to-great facilitator to feed him in places where he is most comfortable and most likely to convert. While you can find points to dismiss this reality as seen in games 5 & 6, I see those games as yet another example of the clearly required connection between Ayton and a point guard like CP3.

Anyway, I'm done battling you. It's time to turn our focus to tomorrow night. I really, really hope CP3 can find a way to overcome the effects from Holiday. I hope Monty designs schemes to take some of the load off Paul (specifically, taking the ball up the court). I really hope Paul can get back to playing with pace and flow and rhythm, and NOT eat the ball every time he crosses midcourt.
And I believe Monty will have to make the impossibly difficult call of putting Paul on a short leash, where if he isn't doing the above, he will have to come off the court.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Admit what exactly cheese?? That AD was "healthy" prior to game 4? I'm not gonna do that. Yes, he hurt himself further in game 4, but IMHO, I believe he was battling through health issues from the start of the series and was not 100% at any time in playoffs. I don't even think he was fully 100% when he returned to play in the regular season.
Further, while Ayton, on occasion and due to his immense talent, has been able to scratch out some offense in games when Paul was out or ineffective, I remain firm in my position, that Ayton requires Paul, or any other good-to-great facilitator to feed him in places where he is most comfortable and most likely to convert. While you can find points to dismiss this reality as seen in games 5 & 6, I see those games as yet another example of the clearly required connection between Ayton and a point guard like CP3.

Anyway, I'm done battling you. It's time to turn our focus to tomorrow night. I really, really hope CP3 can find a way to overcome the effects from Holiday. I hope Monty designs schemes to take some of the load off Paul (specifically, taking the ball up the court). I really hope Paul can get back to playing with pace and flow and rhythm, and NOT eat the ball every time he crosses midcourt.
And I believe Monty will have to make the impossibly difficult call of putting Paul on a short leash, where if he isn't doing the above, he will have to come off the court.

Lol at “scratch out some offense” when talking about the kid going 32-39 over a three game stretch where he averaged 22pts/game against the league’s #1 defense and a healthy AD when Paul was playing so badly with a shoulder injury many of us were calling for him to be benched. You’re just refusing to acknowledge reality to stay cemented to your faulty position.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Admit what exactly cheese?? That AD was "healthy" prior to game 4? I'm not gonna do that. Yes, he hurt himself further in game 4, but IMHO, I believe he was battling through health issues from the start of the series and was not 100% at any time in playoffs. I don't even think he was fully 100% when he returned to play in the regular season.

So, despite all evidence to the contrary, you’re gonna stick with “AD wasn’t healthy because I say so”.

The rest of your post is littered with too much BS that I’ve already refuted above, so yeah, we can be done here.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Lol at “scratch out some offense” when talking about the kid going 32-39 over a three game stretch where he averaged 22pts/game against the league’s #1 defense and a healthy AD when Paul was playing so badly with a shoulder injury many of us were calling for him to be benched. You’re just refusing to acknowledge reality to stay cemented to your faulty position.

The “scratch out” comment was the point of no return on even trying to have a rational conversation.

 

[Covert Rain]

Been reviewing Ayton's playoff shot data.

83.2% of his shots are assisted verses 16.8% unassisted. So very few of his overall makes come from creating his own shot including put backs.

10.5% of his shots have come from Catch and Shoots

1.9% are Pull Ups

85% of his shots have been at the rim.

81% have come with ZERO dribbles. Couple that with the low catch and shoot and being assisted 83.2% means most of his makes are not put backs.

16.7% of made shots have come with a defender next to him (0-2 feet) or contested.

59.5% of his made shots have come with someone 2- 4 feet away which indicates most of his makes are after he slips the defense on pick and rolls or ally oops verse battling in the paint for put backs.

17.6% of his made shots with someone 4-6 feet away

6.2% Wide open makes

I was going mostly on what I had seen on the court but after review this there is zero doubt Ayton goes how his team feeds him. I am not sure how this compares to the regular season. I reviewed this all while on a break at work so I didn't get a chance.

The formula is simple. Stop the team from passing to Ayton and you kill his effectiveness in terms of making buckets. I don't think you can stop him on the boards or defensively when he is committed to that. Chris Paul playing bad absolutely kills Ayton's offensive production.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Bottom line is if your team wants to win an NBA championship, or any championship, that usually only happens when all your stats raise their game a notch in every area. Our three stars are Book, CP3 and Ayton. Both Book and CP3 have put up ALL-TIME stinkers and Ayton left a little to be desired on offense last game.

theres 3 games to go. If we’re gonna win this sucker we need those 3 to raise their game from herein to win a Chip.

 

[Covert Rain]

Bottom line is if your team wants to win an NBA championship, or any championship, that usually only happens when all your stats raise their game a notch in every area. Our three stars are Book, CP3 and Ayton. Both Book and CP3 have put up ALL-TIME stinkers and Ayton left a little to be desired on offense last game.

theres 3 games to go. If we’re gonna win this sucker we need those 3 to raise their game from herein to win a Chip.

No doubt everybody has to step up in the finals. However, this highlights how important passing is to this team...especially for Ayton to be effective. All these damn turnovers need to stop if we are to have a chance. The turnovers and success with passing early in that game are likely set the tone for how that game plays out.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No doubt everybody has to step up in the finals. However, this highlights how important passing is to this team...especially for Ayton to be effective. All these damn turnovers need to stop if we are to have a chance. The turnovers and success with passing early in that game are likely set the tone for how that game plays out.

but Ayton has also to make the best of his opportunities. He looked shaky on the block for the first time in a while in Game 4, which is why he only shot 3-9. He was playing with so much confidence, even in Game 3 where he came out and EVERYTHING was money in the first quarter when he exploded for 12 points. He’s got to have that eye of the tiger again and trust himself when he does get opportunities down low again.

also, Booker needs to hit the boards again. He had 1 rebound. We need more from our SG (and everyone) at that part of the game.

and Paul obviously can’t be the worst player on the court.

Man, Game 4 sucked.

 

[95pro]

off topic from all the suns stats,

defensively we just need make tucker and holiday be the play makers. easier said than done, but they have been bad from the field all series long. And they are the bucks primary defenders, we cant expect them to perform on both ends of the court.

We need craig to just tail Giannis when he's in. Part of the reason booker got in foul trouble was he was the only one back on several of those runouts. And we need to gang rebound on the defensive end.

Our defense needs to pick it up.

 

[Covert Rain]

but Ayton has also to make the best of his opportunities. He looked shaky on the block for the first time in a while in Game 4, which is why he only shot 3-9. He was playing with so much confidence, even in Game 3 where he came out and EVERYTHING was money in the first quarter when he exploded for 12 points. He’s got to have that eye of the tiger again and trust himself when he does get opportunities down low again.

also, Booker needs to hit the boards again. He had 1 rebound. We need more from our SG (and everyone) at that part of the game.

and Paul obviously can’t be the worst player on the court.

Man, Game 4 sucked.

Oh I don't disagree but it appears most of his opportunities are setup by the team for him. That's how this team and Ayton plays for better or for worse. Maybe Monty can mix it up. How many times during these games have we all shouted to throw it down to him to at least try when the offense goes stagnate?

In terms of Booker I agree. I don't expect him to be rebounding a bunch when he is ON like he was but 1?!?! That's pathetic. Bridges has been pathetic.

Paul? Man...I got nothing. I just can't fathom sticking with him if he continues to struggle. I want him to be out there. We know he can take over a game. The only thing I can say is I hope for at least 2 more games he can dig deep or at least be competent. We need him.

 

[Covert Rain]

Oh I don't disagree but it appears most of his opportunities are setup by the team for him. That's how this team and Ayton plays for better or for worse. Maybe Monty can mix it up. How many times during these games have we all shouted to throw it down to him to at least try when the offense goes stagnate?

In terms of Booker I agree. I don't expect him to be rebounding a bunch when he is ON like he was but 1?!?! That's pathetic. Bridges has been pathetic.

Paul? Man...I got nothing. I just can't fathom sticking with him if he continues to struggle. I want him to be out there. We know he can take over a game. The only thing I can say is I hope for at least 2 more games he can dig deep or at least be competent. We need him.

One last note. Honestly, Bridges I think has been the biggest disappointment for me so far. Yes he had one fantastic game. Overall though? My biggest disappointment followed by the disappearance of Payne. For the most part Ayton, Booker and Paul (when healthy), Crowder and Cam have shown up. The rest of the bench not so much.

 

[Cheesebeef]

One last note. Honestly, Bridges I think has been the biggest disappointment for me so far. Yes he had one fantastic game. Overall though? My biggest disappointment followed by the disappearance of Payne. For the most part Ayton, Booker and Paul (when healthy), Crowder and Cam have shown up. The rest of the bench not so much.

ive given up on Bridges as far as expectations. He’s gone totally AWOL on both sides of the court one too many times for me in the last couple series.

whatever he gives us at this point is a bonus.

 

[Hoop Head]

off topic from all the suns stats,

defensively we just need make tucker and holiday be the play makers. easier said than done, but they have been bad from the field all series long. And they are the bucks primary defenders, we cant expect them to perform on both ends of the court.

We need craig to just tail Giannis when he's in. Part of the reason booker got in foul trouble was he was the only one back on several of those runouts. And we need to gang rebound on the defensive end.

Our defense needs to pick it up.

I noticed that a lot, especially when he was already in foul trouble. Others need to run back with him. Booker isn't the quickest guy on the team and shouldn't be the only one who gets back in an attempt to stop fast breaks. Not sure what the issue with others were but they can't let that happen again.

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

Monty and CP3 blew this. CP3 will go down as a massive choke artist. Guy doesn't even seem to care about winning

 

[Cheesebeef]

Monty and CP3 blew this. CP3 will go down as a massive choke artist. Guy doesn't even seem to care about winning

holy crap... CP3 doesn’t even care about winning? After battling injury, Covid and more injury all playoffs to get us to the Finals, Paul doesn’t care about winning?

This hot take are laughably pathetic. Now go ahead and tell me to go f myself again. You’ve already said you won’t even watch Game 6. Do us a favor... carry that attitude on with posting if it’s going to be flaming trash like this.

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

holy crap... CP3 doesn’t even care about winning? After battling injury, Covid and more injury all playoffs to get us to the Finals, Paul doesn’t care about winning?

This hot take are laughably pathetic. Now go ahead and tell me to go f myself again. You’ve already said you won’t even watch Game 6. Do us a favor... carry that attitude on with posting if it’s going to be flaming trash like this.

I think this ended up in the wrong thread but w/e.

I hope CP3 proves me wrong. I see a guy who's shied away in the biggest moments. How does the "Point God" floor general squander a 16 point lead in 6 minutes while Booker is on the bench? He has 1 more chance.

 

[jagu]

Frank Kaminsky for MVP!