Suns @ Cavaliers game thread 3-23-18

[Mainstreet]

Here are Payton's stats for the last five games... not enough to impress.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2583639/elfrid-payton

However, he has not had much help with Booker and Warren out.

 

[Cheesebeef]

During a season there needs to be moments of hope and trading for Payton was in that category.

He played well for awhile and IMO he was worth the risk. I still think if he cut the hair in front of his eyes, he would be a better player. I simply can't understand why a player would risk losing millions of dollars because of a hairdo.

It’s not a matter of risk and that’s was never what I was saying. I was saying you couldn’t label the trade automatically “another success” for McD simply because it was made.

 

[Hoop Head]

I'm fine with the Payton trade because his time here should keep us from overpaying for him in the offseason. If he signs to a reasonable deal then it was a good trade. Even if he walks, it wasn't a bad move. They gave him a trial run and I can't blame the front office for giving him an extended audition instead of being stuck paying him starter money to learn he's a poor fit. If he is resigned for $7 million a year or less I'm fine with the trade.

 

[Mainstreet]

It’s not a matter of risk and that’s was never what I was saying. I was saying you couldn’t label the trade automatically “another success” for McD simply because it was made.

I think the Payton trade can only be ruled as a success if he makes the Suns regular season roster next season.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

I think the Payton trade can only be ruled as a success if he makes the Suns regular season roster next season.

If he plays like he has been recently, him being on the team next year with a longer contract could be the real failure.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think the Payton trade can only be ruled as a success if he makes the Suns regular season roster next season.

I think that’s a fair argument... especially if he actually contributes to them getting better.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If he plays like he has been recently, him being on the team next year with a longer contract could be the real failure.

This too.

You don’t want another Knight situation.

 

[Mainstreet]

If he plays like he has been recently, him being on the team next year with a longer contract could be the real failure.

The way Payton is playing now I would not want to commit to him on a longer contract. He also needs to decide if appearance is more important than basketball.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

It's Chriss's once per month "Hey, maybe he CAN be a player" game. I wouldn't build up too many expectations from it.

Chriss did this quite a bit last season. So there is a decent chance that he will keep it up.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Here are Payton's stats for the last five games... not enough to impress.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2583639/elfrid-payton

However, he has not had much help with Booker and Warren out.

Agreed. This is what happens when you have a pass first point guard and no one to pass to. I'm not a big Payton fan but he's being set up for failure right now IMO.

 

[Phrazbit]

Payton was a flier that cost us a 2nd round pick... and we've still got loads of them. It's like getting free food, it's free... so long as it does not make you ill then the cost is fine. The only way the Payton trade can be considered a loss is if he murders a teammate... maybe 2 depending on who they are.

 

[Hoop Head]

Not only did Payton only cost a 2nd round pick but it wasn't even our own 2nd round pick. The pick came from the Troy Daniels salary dump by Memphis. We got that pick, which was originally the Lakers 2nd round pick, and Daniels for a 2nd round pick that only conveyed to Memphis if the Suns 2nd rounder fell between #55-60. If it didn't convey this year then we owe them nothing, and that was never going to convey anyways. We got Daniels for this season and next on a contract that is only $3 million a year and Payton for an audition before deciding whether they want to match any offer he gets in free agency this summer. I wouldn't mind having him back, for a reasonable cost, but that will depend on how the new head coach views him and how much money he's trying to get annually. He shouldn't be a starter for us going forward but the Suns could do worse than him at PG going forward also.

It's worth noting Payton has the same agent as TJ Warren, Ty Sullivan. Warren signed a very reasonable extension prior to this season, 4 years/$50 million, and there's no way that Payton will get that much. Since McD has a history of dealing with that agent I think that could be a good thing in terms of a negotiating a new deal for Payton, if the Suns elect to keep him beyond this season. He's worth backup money, something between $4 to 8 million a year, depending on the length of the contract. The longer the deal the less he gets annually. Something like 4 years and $20-30 million should be about what he's able to get this summer, and I think keeping him for that price wouldn't be bad.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Not only did Payton only cost a 2nd round pick but it wasn't even our own 2nd round pick. The pick came from the Troy Daniels salary dump by Memphis. We got that pick, which was originally the Lakers 2nd round pick, and Daniels for a 2nd round pick that only conveyed to Memphis if the Suns 2nd rounder fell between #55-60. If it didn't convey this year then we owe them nothing, and that was never going to convey anyways. We got Daniels for this season and next on a contract that is only $3 million a year and Payton for an audition before deciding whether they want to match any offer he gets in free agency this summer. I wouldn't mind having him back, for a reasonable cost, but that will depend on how the new head coach views him and how much money he's trying to get annually. He shouldn't be a starter for us going forward but the Suns could do worse than him at PG going forward also.

It's worth noting Payton has the same agent as TJ Warren, Ty Sullivan. Warren signed a very reasonable extension prior to this season, 4 years/$50 million, and there's no way that Payton will get that much. Since McD has a history of dealing with that agent I think that could be a good thing in terms of a negotiating a new deal for Payton, if the Suns elect to keep him beyond this season. He's worth backup money, something between $4 to 8 million a year, depending on the length of the contract. The longer the deal the less he gets annually. Something like 4 years and $20-30 million should be about what he's able to get this summer, and I think keeping him for that price wouldn't be bad.

Good post, and I agree with it for the most part. Payton has shown some flashes and definitely has some potential to develop into a really good player.

However, I'm concerned about an emerging trend about Payton regarding a lack of effort. More than anything, the Suns need intrinsically motivated players. Stuff like this makes me reconsider wanting him on the team at all:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

I understand he spent the beginning of his career with a horrible Magic team only to switch to the Suns and struggle to win any game and that can be dispiriting. But this team needs winners, and it needs players who are going to reliably bring it every night. If that's not Payton, I don't want him even on a cheap contract.

Here's a good article on Payton that just came out on AZCentral:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo.../?hootPostID=c9a440a7fb603a3b016892fded1799fe

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Also...

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

That +- stat is crazy! I get that it's mainly because the starters have been getting destroyed and it's FAR from all Payton's fault, but still...

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Good post, and I agree with it for the most part. Payton has shown some flashes and definitely has some potential to develop into a really good player.

However, I'm concerned about an emerging trend about Payton regarding a lack of effort. More than anything, the Suns need intrinsically motivated players. Stuff like this makes me reconsider wanting him on the team at all:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

I understand he spent the beginning of his career with a horrible Magic team only to switch to the Suns and struggle to win any game and that can be dispiriting. But this team needs winners, and it needs players who are going to reliably bring it every night. If that's not Payton, I don't want him even on a cheap contract.

Here's a good article on Payton that just came out on AZCentral:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo.../?hootPostID=c9a440a7fb603a3b016892fded1799fe

The effort part of this is pretty damning imo.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It’s not a matter of risk and that’s was never what I was saying. I was saying you couldn’t label the trade automatically “another success” for McD simply because it was made.

Yeah. I don’t think he was dia

I think the Payton trade can only be ruled as a success if he makes the Suns regular season roster next season.

I don't know. If getting him now and getting a good look prevented us from taking a risk on him this summer with a long term deal, that's sort of a success.

Payton plays basketball like he has been hitting the THC, hard.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Payton was a flier that cost us a 2nd round pick... and we've still got loads of them. It's like getting free food, it's free... so long as it does not make you ill then the cost is fine. The only way the Payton trade can be considered a loss is if he murders a teammate... maybe 2 depending on who they are.

Not exactly free. That pick might have had some value in a trade somewhere.

 

[Mainstreet]

Not exactly free. That pick might have had some value in a trade somewhere.

Or it could cost the Suns a player. Because the Suns have so many draft picks it's easy to overlook the value it presents.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Good post, and I agree with it for the most part. Payton has shown some flashes and definitely has some potential to develop into a really good player.

However, I'm concerned about an emerging trend about Payton regarding a lack of effort. More than anything, the Suns need intrinsically motivated players. Stuff like this makes me reconsider wanting him on the team at all:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

I understand he spent the beginning of his career with a horrible Magic team only to switch to the Suns and struggle to win any game and that can be dispiriting. But this team needs winners, and it needs players who are going to reliably bring it every night. If that's not Payton, I don't want him even on a cheap contract.

Here's a good article on Payton that just came out on AZCentral:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo.../?hootPostID=c9a440a7fb603a3b016892fded1799fe

Even in pick-up ball at the gym I'll put in 100x more effort than this. When a supposed 'professional athlete' shows lack of effort in a game...that's inexcusable. If I was the coach I'd make him go wash dishes at Applebees for a month and then see where his effort level is at. What a loser.

 

[Mainstreet]

Even in pick-up ball at the gym I'll put in 100x more effort than this. When a supposed 'professional athlete' shows lack of effort in a game...that's inexcusable. If I was the coach I'd make him go wash dishes at Applebees for a month and then see where his effort level is at. What a loser.

Dudley should give gym players hope. He doesn't have much athleticism going for him but he is all effort.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Dudley should give gym players hope. He doesn't have much athleticism going for him but he is all effort.

I'd rather have a player who lacks athleticism, but makes up for it with pure hustle. That's why I have high hopes for Jackson; insane athletic and he always plays hard.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'd rather have a player who lacks athleticism, but makes up for it with pure hustle. That's why I have high hopes for Jackson; insane athletic and he always plays hard.

Totally agree. Jackson will put in the work to get better. I'm don't think aggressive instincts can be taught.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Totally agree. Jackson will put in the work to get better. I'm don't think aggressive instincts can be taught.

I think players can get more aggressive as the gain more confidence. It is very hard to break laziness though. Maybe with the right coach next year some of these guys that are being lazy will start showing significantly more effort.

 

[Hoop Head]

It's amazing that Dudley has managed to have an 11 year career in the NBA, 12 years when his contract runs out. Now that he's developed a quality outside shot he could probably play another 2 or 3 years beyond his current contract. If he were 6'10 or taller I could see sticking around that long, bigs seem to get unlimited opportunities in the NBA, but he's 6'7 at most and 240 pounds. He's never been described as quick, fast, or athletic either but he is all hustle and smarts. When he's put into games now it's to get the young players attention and playing smarter. You can tell he has the respect of our young players, which is important. He is almost like having an assistant coach that is able to be on the court with our young players. He says he wants to be a coach when his career is over and he should do well as an assistant, at the least. I'm not sure if he would be a good head coach or not with his temperament but I think he should be a quality assistant.

 

[Hoop Head]

Totally agree. Jackson will put in the work to get better. I'm don't think aggressive instincts can be taught.

I don't think that can be taught either but I do think a player can develop it on their own over time. I think Dragic is an example of that. He was super timid when he came into the league and it took a while for him to become assertive and really stand out. He always had talent but he didn't have the drive of a great player. He doesn't play with it all the time now either but he does for certain games and stretches. There are other players like that, I'm sure, but we got to see that with him on the Suns. He was a different player during his 2nd run here. Once he managed to tap into that and get that attitude he became an All-Star type player.