Suns @ Clippers Tuesday game thread 12-17-19

[Sunburn]

So if he’s a great player, how is he a “mistake?”

Because he won't be as great a player as he could be, because he doesn't have the drive. And because we could've had a greater player. Say someone has 100 dollars hidden in one hand, and 50 dollars hidden in the other. He says choose one hand and he'll give you what's in that hand. You choose the hand with the 50 dollars. It's great you now have 50 dollars, but it was still a mistake not choosing the other hand.

 

[TJ]

Because he won't be as great a player as he could be, because he doesn't have the drive. And because we could've had a greater player. Say someone has 100 dollars hidden in one hand, and 50 dollars hidden in the other. He says choose one hand and he'll give you what's in that hand. You choose the hand with the 50 dollars. It's great you now have 50 dollars, but it was still a mistake not choosing the other hand.

1) You’re assuming that the 20-year-old has hit his peak when he hasn’t even played 82 career NBA games. It took Giannis until his third NBA season to become the Greek Freak. The main problem people have about Ayton is that he’s not all-NBA right now. So what? Nobody thought he’d be AD or KAT from day one. Everyone thought he would take time to develop

2) Still don’t get how people think he has no drive. This seems Like something mentalistic that can’t be operationally defined; yet, people here think they know what they’re talking about. Ayton is probably one of the most athletic players in the entire NBA. He has almost no body fat, is strong, and extremely talented. You don’t get to that place with no drive. What I think we can universally agree upon Is that there are areas in his game in which he needs to improve, such as creating contact down low.

3) I don’t care about the “greater” player. The assumed “greater player” is not a Phoenix Sun. He wasn’t the pick. Complaining about it does yourself no good. If Ayton turns into an upper-echelon all-NBA player, which is more likely than not, then it’s a moot point. You wont find many Rocket fans bitching about taking Hakeem Olajuwon over the guy taken 3rd overall that year. If Ayton turns into Anthony Bennett, which is highly unlikely, I’ll field the complaints and even join in them.

And to your analogy, I still came ahead $50 Richer than I did before your game.

My point: Stop overanalyzing and stop ruminating over what could have been.

 

[Western Font]

I’d have to take a closer look but Ayton’s points in the paint “seem” to mostly be tip ins. If he’s not in the restricted area he seems to choose a turnaround jumper. I’m glad he has these and can quietly take them into double digits, but he just has to take the ball to the hoop more. He’ll start picking up free throws and gain confidence that he’ll score one way or the other. His movement is also fluid enough that he’s not going to attract too many offensive fouls.

 

[Sunburn]

1) You’re assuming that the 20-year-old has hit his peak when he hasn’t even played 82 career NBA games. It took Giannis until his third NBA season to become the Greek Freak. The main problem people have about Ayton is that he’s not all-NBA right now. So what? Nobody thought he’d be AD or KAT from day one. Everyone thought he would take time to develop

2) Still don’t get how people think he has no drive. This seems Like something mentalistic that can’t be operationally defined; yet, people here think they know what they’re talking about. Ayton is probably one of the most athletic players in the entire NBA. He has almost no body fat, is strong, and extremely talented. You don’t get to that place with no drive. What I think we can universally agree upon Is that there are areas in his game in which he needs to improve, such as creating contact down low.

3) I don’t care about the “greater” player. The assumed “greater player” is not a Phoenix Sun. He wasn’t the pick. Complaining about it does yourself no good. If Ayton turns into an upper-echelon all-NBA player, which is more likely than not, then it’s a moot point. You wont find many Rocket fans bitching about taking Hakeem Olajuwon over the guy taken 3rd overall that year. If Ayton turns into Anthony Bennett, which is highly unlikely, I’ll field the complaints and even join in them.

And to your analogy, I still came ahead $50 Richer than I did before your game.

My point: Stop overanalyzing and stop ruminating over what could have been.

1) No I'm not. I'm not saying the present is his peak at all. I'm saying his peak won't be as great as it could be because he doesn't have the drive.

2) Talent, athleticism, and low body fat at 21 years old dont necessarily represent dedication. Those can be genetically gifted. There are countless examples in professional sports of genetic wonders not living up to expectations because they lacked the want to.

3) The recent discussion on this thread had to do with Ayton's comments at the time of the draft. Commenting on alternative draft selections was a natural course of progression. And I feel comfortable saying Ayton is no Olajuwon.

You came away with $50 dollars, but it was still a mistake not taking the $100. Especially if that's the price of a championship.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

1) No I'm not. I'm not saying the present is his peak at all. I'm saying his peak won't be as great as it could be because he doesn't have the drive.

2) Talent, athleticism, and low body fat at 21 years old dont necessarily represent dedication. Those can be genetically gifted. There are countless examples in professional sports of genetic wonders not living up to expectations because they lacked the want to.

3) The recent discussion on this thread had to do with Ayton's comments at the time of the draft. Commenting on alternative draft selections was a natural course of progression. And I feel comfortable saying Ayton is no Olajuwon.

You came away with $50 dollars, but it was still a mistake not taking the $100. Especially if that's the price of a championship.

1.) This is pure speculation on your part. From all accounts the dude was busting his butt off in practice and that tends to contradict the idea that he doesn't have drive.

2.) Staying in his level of shape and working as hard as he has been reported to be working in practice absolutely points to some sort of dedication.

3.) Of course he isn't Olajuwon (he does have some similar skills, but overall much different style). His point in that comparison is talking about Ayton becoming a great player and because of that being worth the selection even though he may not go down as the best player from his draft (which very much describes Olajuwon).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I’d have to take a closer look but Ayton’s points in the paint “seem” to mostly be tip ins. If he’s not in the restricted area he seems to choose a turnaround jumper. I’m glad he has these and can quietly take them into double digits, but he just has to take the ball to the hoop more. He’ll start picking up free throws and gain confidence that he’ll score one way or the other. His movement is also fluid enough that he’s not going to attract too many offensive fouls.

100%. His offensive game at present draws zero contact - hence no free throws. But the zero free throws are not the only symptom of his lack of desire to pound opponents in the paint. It also fails to put his defenders in foul trouble. And those defenders are guys like embiid, KAT, or Jokic having them hampered or on the court less would benefit the team. Moreover, if he punished teams in the paint it would necessitate double teams, thereby opening our shooters for better open looks. I know that I expected Ayton to create greater gravity than he has to date. And his failure to do so is directly attributable to his namby pamby I’d rather shoot jumpshots style of play.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

1.) This is pure speculation on your part. From all accounts the dude was busting his butt off in practice and that tends to contradict the idea that he doesn't have drive.

2.) Staying in his level of shape and working as hard as he has been reported to be working in practice absolutely points to some sort of dedication.

3.) Of course he isn't Olajuwon (he does have some similar skills, but overall much different style). His point in that comparison is talking about Ayton becoming a great player and because of that being worth the selection even though he may not go down as the best player from his draft (which very much describes Olajuwon).

1. It’s speculation in both directions. But the trend (or “trajectory”) hasn’t been up. It’s been flat. So all evidence to date really kinda points to this being peak or near peak. That’s if he continues his consistent plateau. I hope monty shakes him upward.

2. what level of shape is he? He looks exactly like he’s always looked. From uofa, to draft, to last year, to preseason. Looks exactly the same to me. And he’s a young physically gifted athlete. I’m betting that much like the game comes easy to him, so does that physique.

3. yes you got the analogy right. But if I’m using 20-20 hindsight and get to say whether I wish I had mj or olajawon, it’s mj all day every day. Olajawon was a fantastic consolation prize. And while I don’t blame a bunch of us fans for making the wrong draft call, that’s what professional sports teams are paid to do, get it right, and get it as right as possible. Because championships, after all, is what it’s ultimately all about.

 

[Sunburn]

1.) This is pure speculation on your part. From all accounts the dude was busting his butt off in practice and that tends to contradict the idea that he doesn't have drive.

2.) Staying in his level of shape and working as hard as he has been reported to be working in practice absolutely points to some sort of dedication.

3.) Of course he isn't Olajuwon (he does have some similar skills, but overall much different style). His point in that comparison is talking about Ayton becoming a great player and because of that being worth the selection even though he may not go down as the best player from his draft (which very much describes Olajuwon).

1) The start of discussion was Ayton's lack of competitiveness and the comments he made leading up to the draft indicating such. Based on that, I am asserting he will not be as great a player as he could be because he lacks the competitive drive. Since I don't know the future, by definition, it is speculation.

2) I was merely refuting the premise that talent, athleticism, and low body fat are indicative of drive. They can be genetically gifted. They're certainly not indicative of competitive drive.

3) I know what his point was. The word great is being used broadly here. Olajuwon is an all-time great who led his team to two championships. Because of this, taking him before Jordan seems not as egregious. Ayton will not approach this. Not because he doesn't have the physical tools, but because he lacks the desire. Since Ayton will not be an all-time great, and if Doncic is, which seems probable, Ayton over Doncic will be looked at as more egregious than Olajuwon over Jordan. As for being worth the selection, if you're talking about maximizing the value of the pick, no he was not worth the selection. If you're talking about meeting a subjective threshold of quality, that's up to you.

 

[pokerface]

This was my biggest fear all along. Doncic seemed like a winner to me...Ayton did not. Now it's right in front of our faces.

We have a jump shooting center. Is he a Dirk Nowitski??

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

I would pick Ayton at #1, but *IF* the knocks are true about motor and instincts, it would be a mistake. The problem is then this board will be "What are the coaches doing?!!!"; "They aren't using him correctly!"; "Why aren't the coaches motivating him"; etc.

This is what still gnaws at me. Far all of the hyperbolic Doncic statements - on both sides - he is a winner, even if he is a jack-of-all-trades type of 6'7" player. Regardless of competition, this seems to be borne out in the facts.

I have had enough of the "great-measurables-except-the-heart-and-between-the-ears" type of player. Anyone else share this concern?

This is what I posted back in May of 2018. I do wish for a do-over (for the Suns, for my own life in some cases, for my kids in some cases, etc.) but all "we" (the Suns FO in this case) can do is learn from it and move forward. I think JJ is experiencing that same wish right now, hearing his comments about changing a player.
I will say that harping on it and throwing it in the faces of fans does no good for anyone. But that also, like a bad breakup, it is going to take time - a long time.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I get that losing breeds impatience, but people need to understand that we are talking about a guy that is TWO games into his 2nd season and it's not like he wasn't a good rookie. The takes acting like what we have seen in those 2 games is anywhere near enough to make a conclusion are just shortsighted and impatient. Give the young man some time to grow. If Giannis for instance was drafted higher he may well have been talked about as a bust before his 3rd season and didn't particularly look like a star until his 4th season (same for George and Kawhi). Ayton was without a doubt a better rookie than any of those guys, but the growth that they showed from even their 3rd season to their prime was huge. Ayton is a long way from his prime.

 

[Bufalay]

So he’s a bust? Gotcha

Yes, he’s a bust.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Yes, he’s a bust.

K...

 

[swagron]

Every post you've made here says you're not. There's a difference between being realistic and being a troll. You display troll like behavior in every post you make on the Suns forum. Like saying how the Suns will never recover from passing on Doncic, how Booker is a stat stuffing scrub, and everyone in the Phoenix sports media is an idiot. Throw in how you praise the Lakers and it's clear that you aren't a Suns fan and the only reason you won't come out and admit it is so you can continue taking jabs at the team on this forum.

Wow that is quite a laundry list of assumptions. I don’t even think I have the most negative posts on this forum , just realistic. I suppose maybe my jabs connect more than some others, lol.

 

[swagron]

These were the comments of a 20 year old player.

Luka is a 20 year old.

 

[Hoop Head]

Wow that is quite a laundry list of assumptions. I don’t even think I have the most negative posts on this forum , just realistic. I suppose maybe my jabs connect more than some others, lol.

And yet you don't deny anything. You're not a "realist", you're a troll who toes the line and pretends otherwise so you can continue to bash the Suns here. Your posts last season saying the Lakers wouldn't trade Kuzma, Ball, or Hart for Booker or Ayton proves that. That isn't realistic, in any way, it's garbage spewed by a Laker fan.

 

[BC867]

We have a jump shooting center. Is he a Dirk Nowitski??

Thank you for citing Dirk. He has always been listed as a Power Forward
(exceptfor his 4th and 6th out of 21 seasons), which is why I have
suggested that might be Deandre's best position.

Nowitski was 7'0"-245 and Ayton came in at 7'0"-250 (before the
NBA played honest with its heights and lowered him to 6'11").

Dirk led his team to their championship only when an inside Center,
Tyson Chandler, was added to the roster as a starter.

Tyson was 7'0"-240 and his backup Brendan Haywood was 7'0"-268.
The luxury of a power Center for whatever combination of players
were on the court.

With so many posters citing Ayton's comfort with jump shots and
avoiding contact, I can't understand why other posters are so
adamant about Ayton being a Center - period.

Because that is how we drafted him? He wasn't playing Center
when we drafted him.

If Power Forward was good enough for Dirk, it's good enough for
Deandre. If power Centers play alongside him. But not if the Suns
go with their traditional light Centers.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Every post you've made here says you're not. There's a difference between being realistic and being a troll. You display troll like behavior in every post you make on the Suns forum. Like saying how the Suns will never recover from passing on Doncic, how Booker is a stat stuffing scrub, and everyone in the Phoenix sports media is an idiot. Throw in how you praise the Lakers and it's clear that you aren't a Suns fan and the only reason you won't come out and admit it is so you can continue taking jabs at the team on this forum.

This falls under the calling people trolls, which I posed last week.

I am seeing this pattern where you believe it is fine for you to police others level of fandom.

Consider this strike 2.

 

[Hoop Head]

This falls under the calling people trolls, which I posed last week.

I am seeing this pattern where you believe it is fine for you to police others level of fandom.

Consider this strike 2.

Really on top of things, aren't we? Having to go back to a post made 2 weeks BEFORE you ever made your troll thread.

Hey @Shaggy it would cool if the Suns board had a moderator who was actually present instead of someone who pops in every couple of weeks and tries to enforce rules that wouldn't be getting broken if there were an actual active mod who stopped troll activity when it shows up.

I stand by what I said about Swagron. Look at his post history and it's clear as day he's not a Suns fan. He bashes them at every opportunity. He's a Laker fan who enjoys poking fun at the Suns. Why else would someone come to a Suns forum and talk about how the Lakers wouldn't trade Josh Hart for Devin Booker or Ayton. Post here. So now I'm being "warned" for calling someone a troll and Laker fan, which is a rule Chris apparently started January 2nd, per the thread he made here in this forum and I'm being warned for breaking those rules about 2 weeks before hand.

I wonder what you think about the rule Chris has made that says calling someone a Laker fan is now a ban-able offense as well. That has to be one of the dumbest rules I've ever heard for a sports forum. The only thing worse than that, IMO, is having a mod issue a warning for someone who called out another fan for their desire to see the team moved out of state. Just to clarify that one, we had a "Suns fan" here call for the Suns to pack up shop and move to Seattle or Las Vegas and I questioned what sort of fan would call for their team to be moved and received a warning for it. That's just beyond me. You'd think a site titled ArizonaSportsFans would allow for it's members to want their favorite teams to stay in Arizona but apparently that's something that isn't allowed.

I'm not just complaining because I received a warning either. I would stand up for any fan here who received a "warning" for anything so ridiculous. We've lost some good posters recently and more are on the verge of quitting here as well because there isn't a mod who is actually a member of this community. Without an active mod this board is imploding because it's forced to deal with issues on it's own because the mod can't be bothered to look at context or even the date of a post. Issuing warnings for things said weeks before a rule was implemented? That's awesome. Issuing warnings because a poster questions what sort of fan someone is if they want to see that franchise moved across the country. Right on!

I have a feeling this post will be deleted or get me banned and if it does, so be it. I hate to see this site go down the toilet the way it has and I'm sure I'm not the only one frustrated by how it's been around recently.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

You were reported multiple times by other posters. Enjoy your perma ban

 

[Chris_Sanders]

And to address caca cabeza's complaint that I am not in every game thread...

His posts were being reported for attacking other fans, which is why I responded. There were so many reports of his posts that I had a back log to deal with post holidays

So caca cabeza.. based on the sheer volume of your rule breaking you should have been banned but I tried to give you another chance. I literally only responded to 2 of the 5 reported posts because I was trying to be nice rather than just outright ban you for so many transgressions.

I thought 2 strikes was clear enough. But then you chose to break another board rule.

Your choice. Your results

 

[JerkFace]

And to address caca cabeza's complaint that I am not in every game thread...

His posts were being reported for attacking other fans, which is why I responded. There were so many reports of his posts that I had a back log to deal with post holidays

So caca cabeza.. based on the sheer volume of your rule breaking you should have been banned but I tried to give you another chance. I literally only responded to 2 of the 5 reported posts because I was trying to be nice rather than just outright ban you for so many transgressions.

I thought 2 strikes was clear enough. But then you chose to break another board rule.

Your choice. Your results

How long is he banned for?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

How long is he banned for?

He said permanently in the first post.

 

[BC867]

When he finally got rid of the Poop Head logo (and that obnoxious avatar illustrating it),
he changed it to "Señor Caca Cabeza". Who's he kidding?

I considered that flaunting bad taste, even if it was self-deprecation, and insulting ASFN
and it's participants in the process.

 

[JerkFace]

He said permanently in the first post.

Yea, I saw that... it just seemed so, ummm, permanent (ha) for someone who has been on this board for 14 years.