Suns Fans and the Refs

[azirish]

I don't read a lot other team's forums, but I suspect that Suns fans have as deep seeded dislike of the refs as any fans in the NBA. Some of this is similar to that of all fans, but some is due to the way the Suns play.

The simple truth is that the Suns have always been an offense oriented team. The Colangelos always wanted an up tempo, free flowing, high scoring style of basketball to the point where JC even helped to change the rules. The Colangelos hated the 90's grab and hold, half court dump in and kick style that most teams played and built his team accordingly.

The problem with having an offense oriented team is that it is dependent on the refs doing their jobs. When the refs decide that enforcing the RULES AS WRITTEN is too hard, the Suns get penalized more than a grab and hold team like the Spurs on both ends of the court.

Some fans (or anti-fans as the case may be) recommend that the Suns go over to the dark side and hire a bunch of goons so they can respond to this style of officiating. It hasn't helped the other teams that tried to solve the Spurs, but they are prepared to let the refs off the hook rather than keep pushing for the enforcement of the rules.

It is not really likely that the refs are deliberately trying to destroy the Suns. That is just a byproduct of just refusing to do their jobs in the playoffs. Somehow they do that without announcing, "We plan to change the rules during the playoffs but we won't tell you what the new rules are or how they will be enforced". Besides, its your fault in thinking that the rules should be enforced.

Except for the rule about leaving the bench...that's the only rule that will be enforced. Everything else is left to the whims of the referees.

The betting scandal is just reopening the deep hostility that most Suns fans have with the refs. Whether it is changing the rules, uneven application of the rules, or just plain blown calls; there is a lot of reason why Suns fans don't like the way games are being officiated.

It doesn't make Suns fans feel better when being told "it's all your fault if you are so naive to think the games should be well officiated. But rest assured, while you are getting screwed, you should know it's not personal."

 

[dodie53]

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[Scot1]

I agree with nearly everything you say, but I sure disagree with a seeming implication--that we should get over it, expect it, go with the flow.... The refs are incompetent and lazy (when they're not crooked), the rules change from that lamentable standard in the playoffs, and even though Stern picks and chooses which rules to enforce and when and just happens to habitually choose the ones that hurt us and not the ones that help us, we shouldn't be angry. I disagree. If I get kicked, even if it's not me but the class of dog I am, I'm gonna be angry--and rightly so.

A competent commissioner could decree that the rules won't change during the playoffs, referee mistakes will lead to fines and reassignment, and a pattern of misconduct by, e.g., the Spurs, will be punished so that it very clearly doesn't pay. That would be a fairly easy policy for a competent commissioner to carry out--the hardest part is what they do during the regular season anyway. Not to mention that it would allow room for the kind of basketball that fans like, that most players like.... He, and the refs, are not just incompetent but bad marketers.

[Late edit--I just read another thread, http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=93902, and broadly agree with your suggestions, azirish--fuller and sounder than what I implied.

 

[mjb21aztd]

not spurs fans i was reading their forum on realgm today and they think every call against the suns was a right call lol go figure... the calls I viewed on that youtube video you could easily tell they were favoring the spurs

 

[azirish]

I agree with nearly everything you say, but I sure disagree with a seeming implication--that we should get over it, expect it, go with the flow.... The refs are incompetent and lazy (when they're not crooked), the rules change from that lamentable standard in the playoffs, and even though Stern picks and chooses which rules to enforce and when and just happens to habitually choose the ones that hurt us and not the ones that help us, we shouldn't be angry. I disagree. If I get kicked, even if it's not me but the class of dog I am, I'm gonna be angry--and rightly so.

A competent commissioner could decree that the rules won't change during the playoffs, referee mistakes will lead to fines and reassignment, and a pattern of misconduct by, e.g., the Spurs, will be punished so that it very clearly doesn't pay. That would be a fairly easy policy for a competent commissioner to carry out--the hardest part is what they do during the regular season anyway. Not to mention that it would allow room for the kind of basketball that fans like, that most players like.... He, and the refs, are not just incompetent but bad marketers.

[Late edit--I just read another thread, http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=93902, and broadly agree with your suggestions, azirish--fuller and sounder than what I implied.

Actually I agree with you. I was referring to those who want us to stop complaining about the refs.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Actually I agree with you. I was referring to those who want us to stop complaining about the refs.

uh, who exactly are the anti-fans in this forum? And what exactly is an anti-fan may I ask? I've yet to see one, but then again, I'mnot quite sure I understand the term.

I think a lot of Suns fans just don't want to be equated with Mavs/Kings fans, but I think it's too late for that at this point across the net.

 

[Gaddabout]

And what exactly is an anti-fan may I ask?

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[nashman]

When we get screwed by the Refs which I think alot of people not just on here but nationwide think...we have reason to dislike them! Quite frankly I thought the whole spurs series was a crock of &*@# they were aloud to molest us the whole series with no reprocussions. Has anyone on the Spurs ever fouled out of a game really? Duncan? Maybe never in his career? I know he never commits a foul!

 

[Sir Donald]

I heard this joke from the Brooklyn Dodgers show I watched the other night on TV so I stole it:

There is a Suns fan with a gun and two bullets locked in a room with Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Tim Donaghy. Which two jerks does he shoot?

 

[Bufalay]

I heard this joke from the Brooklyn Dodgers show I watched the other night on TV so I stole it:

There is a Suns fan with a gun and two bullets locked in a room with Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Tim Donaghy. Which two jerks does he shoot?

I guess you could shoot donaghy twice since hitler and stalin are already dead.

 

[Sir Donald]

Close. You put one in Donaghy and save the other for Eddie Rush.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think a lot of Suns fans just don't want to be equated with Mavs/Kings fans, but I think it's too late for that at this point across the net.

I will go on record saying the Kings and their fans got screwed by the referees a number of years back when they played the Lakers in the playoffs. So they may have a legitimate reason to whine. I can't remember the year off hand, but the Kings had a Championship caliber team that year and got jobbed. Perhaps someone can remember the year. If ESPN can give the Spurs an * for their series win over the Suns then so can I.

I know what I saw in the Suns series with the Spurs (the play of Bowen and Horry) and the referees with whistles stuck in their mouth... it was all a pack of lies.

 

[Bufalay]

I will go on record saying the Kings and their fans got screwed by the referees a number of years back when they played the Lakers in the playoffs. So they may have a legitimate reason to whine. I can't remember the year off hand, but the Kings had a Championship caliber team that year and got jobbed. Perhaps someone can remember the year. If ESPN can give the Spurs an * for their series win over the Suns then so can I.

I know what I saw in the Suns series with the Spurs (the play of Bowen and Horry) and the referees with whistles stuck in their mouth... it was all a pack of lies.

what happened to the kings?

 

[scXfreakX]

Yeah and Bowen looked like he intentionally kneed nash in the groin. Man and then the stepping on the heel of amare, which I will admit could be argued that it was an accident. Then what Horry did was so low. And steve forgave him which showed character. It was such a hard series to watch because it seemed so unfair.

 

[SASpursfan]

I remember, and almost every Spurs fan, during the early 2000's, thinking that the refs were out to get the Spurs so that the Lakers could win title after title. It seemed as if the lakers got all the calls, especially Kobe and Shaq. But in reality the Spurs were not good enough to beat the Lakers. The additions of Parker (2002) and Ginobili (2003) changed the complexion of the Spurs and made them a team that could attack the rim.

Maybe the Suns are not yet good enough to beat the Spurs. Maybe a year more of playing together can make them a better offensive team and defensive team. ( By offensive, I mean Amare being a better low post player and some creating other Nash). However, I cant figure out why the Suns would trade KT away, when he did a decent job against Duncan.

Even last year when we lost to the Mavericks in the semi-finals everyone thought the Mavs got all the callls.

Perhaps losing makes one want to find excuses, rather than possibly accepting that your home team isnt quite ready to move to on the next level.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I remember, and almost every Spurs fan, during the early 2000's, thinking that the refs were out to get the Spurs so that the Lakers could win title after title. It seemed as if the lakers got all the calls, especially Kobe and Shaq. But in reality the Spurs were not good enough to beat the Lakers. The additions of Parker (2002) and Ginobili (2003) changed the complexion of the Spurs and made them a team that could attack the rim.

Maybe the Suns are not yet good enough to beat the Spurs. Maybe a year more of playing together can make them a better offensive team and defensive team. ( By offensive, I mean Amare being a better low post player and some creating other Nash). However, I cant figure out why the Suns would trade KT away, when he did a decent job against Duncan.

Even last year when we lost to the Mavericks in the semi-finals everyone thought the Mavs got all the callls.

Perhaps losing makes one want to find excuses, rather than possibly accepting that your home team isnt quite ready to move to on the next level.

i completely agree - and as far as the Kings getting jobbed, sure there was horrendous officiating in that Game 6, but you know what? They still had Game 4 wrapped up with a 24 point lead at one point and still were up two with seconds left when Vlade tipped a rebound out which he should have just grabbed which ended up in Horry's hands for a three to win it and they still had a Game 7 AT HOME which they completely choked away missing foul shots and making incredibly stupid/scared plays, losing in OT.

Now, if it were to come out that Donagy bet on Game 3, then yes, I'd say Suns fans have a legit beef and we'll never know who was better this year, but until that day, I just think the majority of the board is coming off as the same Mav/Kings fans who the same majority of the board regularly rips into.

 

[Redrage]

I remember, and almost every Spurs fan, during the early 2000's, thinking that the refs were out to get the Spurs so that the Lakers could win title after title. It seemed as if the lakers got all the calls, especially Kobe and Shaq. But in reality the Spurs were not good enough to beat the Lakers. The additions of Parker (2002) and Ginobili (2003) changed the complexion of the Spurs and made them a team that could attack the rim.

Maybe the Suns are not yet good enough to beat the Spurs. Maybe a year more of playing together can make them a better offensive team and defensive team. ( By offensive, I mean Amare being a better low post player and some creating other Nash). However, I cant figure out why the Suns would trade KT away, when he did a decent job against Duncan.

Even last year when we lost to the Mavericks in the semi-finals everyone thought the Mavs got all the callls.

Perhaps losing makes one want to find excuses, rather than possibly accepting that your home team isnt quite ready to move to on the next level.

Nope, you were right then.

The Lakers did get all of the calls.

Spurs get calls because the refs give more leeway to Championship teams or super stars. If they see contact, but can't devine who initiated it, they'll blow the whistle in favor of the Duncan's of this world. It's always been this way. You'll hear it referred to as the halo effect. It happens in pro sports and corporate America. Establish yourself as a super star and you will get coddled.

As far as the Spur series this year: it seems that the only fans who don't believe the Suns were jobbed are Spurs fans and general Suns haters.

 

[scXfreakX]

Nope, you were right then.

The Lakers did get all of the calls.

Spurs get calls because the refs give more leeway to Championship teams or super stars. If they see contact, but can't devine who initiated it, they'll blow the whistle in favor of the Duncan's of this world. It's always been this way. You'll hear it referred to as the halo effect. It happens in pro sports and corporate America. Establish yourself as a super star and you will get coddled.

As far as the Spur series this year: it seems that the only fans who don't believe the Suns were jobbed are Spurs fans and general Suns haters.

Yeah, and even though I think some of them know that they're giving us a lot of bad calls, they still disagree and give us a hard time about it.

 

[SASpursfan]

Nope, you were right then.

The Lakers did get all of the calls.

Spurs get calls because the refs give more leeway to Championship teams or super stars. If they see contact, but can't devine who initiated it, they'll blow the whistle in favor of the Duncan's of this world. It's always been this way. You'll hear it referred to as the halo effect. It happens in pro sports and corporate America. Establish yourself as a super star and you will get coddled.

As far as the Spur series this year: it seems that the only fans who don't believe the Suns were jobbed are Spurs fans and general Suns haters.

If that were entirely true how were the Pistons able to play as physical as they did against lakers. Lakers had the superstars and Detroit pushed them all over the place. Lakers fans complained how physical Detroit was allowed to play without any calls, similar to the Suns fans this past year.

It seems that if you establish yourself as a defensive player or team you are allowed to get away with more.

I believe that KT got away with being extremely physical to Duncan, however I felt it was ok because of his success defending him.

 

[Redrage]

If that were entirely true how were the Pistons able to play as physical as they did against lakers. Lakers had the superstars and Detroit pushed them all over the place. Lakers fans complained how physical Detroit was allowed to play without any calls, similar to the Suns fans this past year.

It seems that if you establish yourself as a defensive player or team you are allowed to get away with more.

I believe that KT got away with being extremely physical to Duncan, however I felt it was ok because of his success defending him.

My guess would be that the pistons established themselves as the team of destiny throughout the season. Momentum was on their side.

ANother thing to keep in mind is that refs tend to swallow their whistles in the playoffs which benefits half court teams(or at least teams with dominant big men). From my vantage point, the game suffers from that.

So, honest opinion. Between Stern's ruling on Amare and Diaw (keeping in mind that Duncan did the same thing in the same game) and the possibility that a crooked ref skewed a game, do you think SUns fans have legitamte complaints?

 

[cly2tw]

I remember, and almost every Spurs fan, during the early 2000's, thinking that the refs were out to get the Spurs so that the Lakers could win title after title. It seemed as if the lakers got all the calls, especially Kobe and Shaq. But in reality the Spurs were not good enough to beat the Lakers. The additions of Parker (2002) and Ginobili (2003) changed the complexion of the Spurs and made them a team that could attack the rim.

Maybe the Suns are not yet good enough to beat the Spurs. Maybe a year more of playing together can make them a better offensive team and defensive team. ( By offensive, I mean Amare being a better low post player and some creating other Nash). However, I cant figure out why the Suns would trade KT away, when he did a decent job against Duncan.

Even last year when we lost to the Mavericks in the semi-finals everyone thought the Mavs got all the callls.

Perhaps losing makes one want to find excuses, rather than possibly accepting that your home team isnt quite ready to move to on the next level.

The main problem with the refs in the Suns-Spurs series was the inconsistency, in particular in game 3. In that youtube feed, nobody could explain why Manu got the foul called on Diaw driving to the hoop without any real contact, while Nash got no call when the ref had a clear view to see that both Bowen and Horry heavily hacked on him. In the same game, TD swiped at Amare's arm to get a block while later Amare's clean block on TD was a foul. So, if the claim is to allow more physical play then they allowed it only on Spurs' part, with a little exception for KT.

So, it's not like Suns were not good enough to beat the Spurs, but rather not good enough to beat Spurs and refs. Without the refs, the odds were probably 60-40 in Spurs favor, but with the refs, it's like 80-20.

 

[F-Dog]

I don't know why Suns fans would think the Spurs were better.

Suns had more regular-season wins, they were the Vegas favorites, and if you throw out game 3, the Suns were 2-1 in the three SA playoff games where both teams were at full strength.

 

[azirish]

If that were entirely true how were the Pistons able to play as physical as they did against lakers. Lakers had the superstars and Detroit pushed them all over the place. Lakers fans complained how physical Detroit was allowed to play without any calls, similar to the Suns fans this past year.

It seems that if you establish yourself as a defensive player or team you are allowed to get away with more.

I believe that KT got away with being extremely physical to Duncan, however I felt it was ok because of his success defending him.

The Pistons were pretty physical, but their big advantage was that without Malone the Lakers were very overmatched. In any case, the Lakers were still trying to run the archaic triangle which was designed to exploit the old illegal defense rules. The Pistons had a modified zone that meant Kobe was doubled every time he got the ball.