Suns @ Grizzlies 12-3-13

[Superbone]

Vitamins! Crap, vitamin supplements do prevent vitamin deficiency diseases but they are no substitute for a good diet if you aim higher than that. Anti-oxident vitamin supplements (C and E) are counter productive when it comes to athletic conditioning while dietary sources of them do not have the same effect. That may not be germane to Len's problems but it is an example of why just shotgunning vitamins isn't good.

LOL. I would hope that our vaunted training staff isn't shotgunning vitamins.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'd think the professionals have a good idea about vitamins and diet planning for their athletes. However... this does make it sound as though Len just has crappy bones. Pumping him full of vitamin D to get some density going. The thought all of this was somewhat expected when Len was drafted seems silly at this point. Knowing what they know now I would imagine Len would have plummeted down the draft board.

The Suns are expected to know this. I mean it is their job to do a thorough research before they draft a player. I suspect McDonough had an attachment to this player which can cloud the vision.

 

[Errntknght]

LOL. I would hope that our vaunted training staff isn't shotgunning vitamins.

I would hope so, too, but when the only thing they mention about nutrition is giving him vitamins, I worry. Especially on top of his girllfriend saying that he had been eating the bulk of his meals at Burger King but she'd gotten him to add Boston Market to his cuisine.

 

[Chaplin]

The Suns are expected to know this. I mean it is their job to do a thorough research before they draft a player. I suspect McDonough had an attachment to this player which can cloud the vision.

Except that nothing in McDonough's past or present would indicate he would have this kind of obsession for a player. It's easy to say McDonough made a mistake and is overly reliant on some past viewing of the kid, but I think it's much more complicated than that.

It's completely possible that he was drafted based on upside and since winning this season wasn't a priority for them, they made the pick. It's only because the team actually has been winning that the motives are now being questioned. If we only had 3 wins right now, nobody would care that he's sitting out, and in fact, would probably want him to.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Except that nothing in McDonough's past or present would indicate he would have this kind of obsession for a player. It's easy to say McDonough made a mistake and is overly reliant on some past viewing of the kid, but I think it's much more complicated than that.

It's completely possible that he was drafted based on upside and since winning this season wasn't a priority for them, they made the pick. It's only because the team actually has been winning that the motives are now being questioned. If we only had 3 wins right now, nobody would care that he's sitting out, and in fact, would probably want him to.

really? the motives for making the pick (i.e. McDonough's loved him since he saw his workout as a high schooler at age 17) were made months ago, even at draft time by a lot of us.

 

[Chaplin]

really? the motives for making the pick (i.e. McDonough's loved him since he saw his workout as a high schooler at age 17) were made months ago, even at draft time by a lot of us.

You mean by a bunch of armchair GMs having discussions on a message board? Sure, his past knowledge of the kid had a part in the pick, but it is naive on your and all of our parts if we assume that's the only reason they took him. You've essentially accused him of making a pick without any input from anybody else. That just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You mean by a bunch of armchair GMs having discussions on a message board? Sure, his past knowledge of the kid had a part in the pick, but it is naive on your and all of our parts if we assume that's the only reason they took him. You've essentially accused him of making a pick without any input from anybody else. That just doesn't make any sense.

Uh...I did nothing of the sort. I just think he really liked the kid and it may have ultimately swung his thinking and clouded his judgement to the possibility of long term injury problems.

As to the "armchair GM" crack, it was you that said the ONLY reason people were questioning motives now is because we're winning, which I disagreed with and is just not true. I don't know what being an armchair GM has to do with you rewriting the history of what actually happened on the board. Who cares if we're armchair GMs? What does that have to do with the fact that his motives were questioned before we started winning?

 

[elindholm]

really? the motives for making the pick (i.e. McDonough's loved him since he saw his workout as a high schooler at age 17) were made months ago, even at draft time by a lot of us.

Yes, and by the Suns front office itself, to let the fan base know how clever the GM was.

 

[elindholm]

Also, the whole "armchair" rhetoric gets tiresome. You don't have to know how to do a job in order to recognize when someone else has made a mistake at it. A commuter train engineer zoned out and ran his train off the rails. Do I need to know how to run a train to be able to say that that was a mistake? A baseball hitter falls into the habit of swinging at every first pitch. Do I need to be a ballplayer to criticize that?

The evidence was clear that Len had limited upside and significant durability questions. McDonough thought he knew better, and made the pick anyway. But lots of experts questioned the pick at the time, so no matter what a given fan says, that fan is in agreement with some experts and in disagreement with others. If you give McDonough the benefit of the doubt, that means you're disagreeing with all of the analysts who said he blew it -- not to mention the first four GMs who passed on Len.

 

[Chaplin]

Also, the whole "armchair" rhetoric gets tiresome. You don't have to know how to do a job in order to recognize when someone else has made a mistake at it. A commuter train engineer zoned out and ran his train off the rails. Do I need to know how to run a train to be able to say that that was a mistake? A baseball hitter falls into the habit of swinging at every first pitch. Do I need to be a ballplayer to criticize that?

The evidence was clear that Len had limited upside and significant durability questions. McDonough thought he knew better, and made the pick anyway. But lots of experts questioned the pick at the time, so no matter what a given fan says, that fan is in agreement with some experts and in disagreement with others. If you give McDonough the benefit of the doubt, that means you're disagreeing with all of the analysts who said he blew it -- not to mention the first four GMs who passed on Len.

Yes, but you can't discount the experts that were pegging him to be a possible #1 pick as well. There are those that Len would be a good pick, but they are basically ignored in discussions like this because, well, they don't agree with your viewpoint.

I won't even touch your analogy to the situation with the train. Unbelievable that you would even use that. And your baseball analogy is off the mark because at least with that situation, you have some current data to support your opinion. You need a certain number of at-bats to support a claim that a guy can't hit. Len hasn't even been given any real opportunity yet.

So what's the outcome? Some people think Len is a wasted pick because McDonough allegedly based it on a false opinion that he was some great wunderkind 5 years ago. Everything that has happened since he became GM has overwhelmingly proved the opposite. So what's right? Could McDonough have made a mistake? Sure. Imagine this--McDonough asks the training staff and they all agree with you--he's too big of a risk and won't be healthy. Would McD simply ignore that and make the pick anyway? In your mind, how does that make sense? You seem so casually able to proclaim McDonough wrong. Why? I know you're not as enamored with his moves so far, but he hasn't done anything that is just flat-out wrong or bad for the team.

But based on playing time, length of time on the team and McDonough's track record, a definitive opinion on his current value doesn't hold a lot of water.

 

[elindholm]

Yes, but you can't discount the experts that were pegging him to be a possible #1 pick as well.

Right, exactly. A few people thought Len was a top prospect and a lot didn't. So a fan will side with one group or the other.

And your baseball analogy is off the mark because at least with that situation, you have some current data to support your opinion. You need a certain number of at-bats to support a claim that a guy can't hit. Len hasn't even been given any real opportunity yet.

He's been given plenty of opportunity to get healthy enough to take the floor, and he hasn't been able to. How can you say that being constantly injured isn't "data" supporting the opinion that a guy's body can't handle the NBA? What other data would you want to see?

Imagine this--McDonough asks the training staff and they all agree with you--he's too big of a risk and won't be healthy. Would McD simply ignore that and make the pick anyway?

How could I possibly know? This is a classic straw-man argument.

In your mind, how does that make sense?

Well, how about the moves that you call "overwhelmingly positive"? Would he have made those over the objection of others in the front office? What's the point of constructing bizarre hypotheticals?

I know you're not as enamored with his moves so far, but he hasn't done anything that is just flat-out wrong or bad for the team.

So your argument is, picking Len can't have been a bad move, because McDonough hasn't made any bad moves. Do you see a flaw in that logic?

 

[Chaplin]

So your argument is, picking Len can't have been a bad move, because McDonough hasn't made any bad moves. Do you see a flaw in that logic?

Simplistic much? It's possibly a bad move, but there isn't enough data either way to support or disprove that assumption.

I have never out-and-out said that picking Alex Len at #5 was a good move. And yes, I think that McD's track record with the Suns so far has given him some leeway here. After the All-Star break and trade deadline will be a much better time to really analyze the success or failure of this pick, IMO. If we were a championship contender, I'd say absolutely yes the pick was a failure at this point, but I think in this reality, the pick was made with the understanding that we didn't need him to be 100% at the beginning of the season, or even the entire year.

 

[Sci Fi]

Also, the whole "armchair" rhetoric gets tiresome. You don't have to know how to do a job in order to recognize when someone else has made a mistake at it. A commuter train engineer zoned out and ran his train off the rails. Do I need to know how to run a train to be able to say that that was a mistake? A baseball hitter falls into the habit of swinging at every first pitch. Do I need to be a ballplayer to criticize that?

The evidence was clear that Len had limited upside and significant durability questions. McDonough thought he knew better, and made the pick anyway. But lots of experts questioned the pick at the time, so no matter what a given fan says, that fan is in agreement with some experts and in disagreement with others. If you give McDonough the benefit of the doubt, that means you're disagreeing with all of the analysts who said he blew it -- not to mention the first four GMs who passed on Len.

Please site evidence. Your opinion doesn't count as evidence. Said evidence must prove the future.

 

[Sci Fi]

Oops. Wrong thread! See rockets thread.

Great win last night. It certainly wasn't pretty but the Suns needed a win. Beating that fraud Howard just makes it that much sweeter. Morey's probably going to wish he'd taken a few psychology courses at Harvard by the time this season's over.

PJ was a grown ass man last night, even more than usual. I love that guy. Maybe soon Suns fans will stop trying to want him traded (especially so that Goodwin can play) or put on the bench and realize he's legit. I hope he gets consideration for All NBA defense this year because he deserves it. He's quick enough to guard the quickest guards and strong enough to guard almost any four. The only defenders in the league i can think of that are more versatile are LeBron and Marion. And one of the things that I think could come out of this game is that Tuck should be get more respect from the refs. I dislike that in the NBA good players get favorable calls on both sides of the ball. While I'll never expect that Tucker will get star defensive player calls, a few more games like last night and I think he'll start to get fairer calls.

The Suns are now 10-9. Are the playoffs possible? Where does that leave them for next years draft? Well, both Hollinger and BBR project them to win 43 games this year given games to date leaving them with the 13th pick in one projection and 14th in the other. That leaves the Suns with no choice. Gotta go for the playoffs! So I'd like to offer up three suggestions to get them there.

1) A simple change that should yield nice results. Goran is now the PG. Bledose is the SG. Use the dual PG concept for times when it is beneficial such as a quick outlet pass to either one, but beyond that Dragic runs the show. He's one of the top PG's in the league. I doubt Bledsoe is ever as good running an offense as Dragic is now. And Dragic is still improving. He should have the ball and Hornacek should make this clear.

2) Send Archie to the D league. He's cut his teeth in the NBA now but he need to go down and work on his game. He's not NBA ready. He gives good effort but he needs a lot work. That's a good place to get it. Atlanta sent Schroeder down so it's no demotion. It's for his and the teams long tern good.

3) The second unit needs a little punch on offense. So make a move to try to trade for the Jimmer. Sacramento is a mess so I take little from his stats during his time there. Put him in a good situation and see if he can grow. I think he has a real possibility to blossom like Redick. Sac has given up on Jimmer so I'd think a second round pick could get him here. Show him some love, hope he blossoms and then sign him longer term. Well worth the gamble.

 

[BC867]

1) A simple change that should yield nice results. Goran is now the PG. Bledose is the SG. Use the dual PG concept for times when it is beneficial such as a quick outlet pass to either one, but beyond that Dragic runs the show. He's one of the top PG's in the league. I doubt Bledsoe is ever as good running an offense as Dragic is now. And Dragic is still improving. He should have the ball and Hornacek should make this clear.

Absolutely. I had already come to the conclusion that Bledsoe is no more a Point Guard than the Brazilian Blur was. Dragic, with a solid backup for 12 minutes per game, should be our only combo at the "1".

What Bledsoe is . . . is the only go-to guy we've had in the past 2 seasons. If we can do well with an undersized backcourt, we need him. If not, we need to find a legitimate Wing (not a tweener) to fulfill it in the starting and closing lineup by later in the season.

 

[SirStefan32]

Also, the whole "armchair" rhetoric gets tiresome. You don't have to know how to do a job in order to recognize when someone else has made a mistake at it. A commuter train engineer zoned out and ran his train off the rails. Do I need to know how to run a train to be able to say that that was a mistake? A baseball hitter falls into the habit of swinging at every first pitch. Do I need to be a ballplayer to criticize that?

The evidence was clear that Len had limited upside and significant durability questions. McDonough thought he knew better, and made the pick anyway. But lots of experts questioned the pick at the time, so no matter what a given fan says, that fan is in agreement with some experts and in disagreement with others. If you give McDonough the benefit of the doubt, that means you're disagreeing with all of the analysts who said he blew it -- not to mention the first four GMs who passed on Len.

Without joining the argument about Len being a good or a bad pick, I think it is not fair to say that Len had (or has) limited upside. He is a legitimate Center with good mobility, can score in the low post and hit a jumper. His upside is very high. His durability was in question, of course.

 

[Mainstreet]

Without joining the argument about Len being a good or a bad pick, I think it is not fair to say that Len had (or has) limited upside. He is a legitimate Center with good mobility, can score in the low post and hit a jumper. His upside is very high. His durability was in question, of course.

IMO, it's all about Len's health. If he can get his ankle(s) healthy, where they are not a chronic problem, I would be satisfied with this pick. I'm willing to wait a few years for him to come around as a player. The disturbing thing for me, the Suns were thinking he was ready to play at the beginning of the season. This seems to indicate they made the wrong assessment in regard to his ankle problems. Otherwise I believe Len was a worthy pick at #5, with that big exception. I do not believe the Suns would draft him again if they could get a do-over knowing what they know now.

 

[Phrazbit]

His upside is debatable. The people who tout high potential site what scouts said about him in Europe. The player that Len has been on this side of the pond has certainly not shown anything to suggest he has some huge ceiling. His college career did not do anything to hint he has much potential.

 

[elindholm]

Without joining the argument about Len being a good or a bad pick, I think it is not fair to say that Len had (or has) limited upside.

Anyone may have untapped potential. What I meant by "the evidence was clear" was that there was nothing that he had done to that point to suggest that his prospects were any better than those of a random collegiate seven-footer. In the clips I watched, I saw below-average aggression toward the basket on the offensive end, as well as many other concerns. I detailed them in post #23 of this thread, which I started the day before the draft:

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f7/dx-noel-vs-len-196467.html?highlight=noel

I'd invite anyone to break down that video similarly and come to a different conclusion.

He is a legitimate Center with good mobility, can score in the low post and hit a jumper.

That isn't what I saw.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Anyone may have untapped potential. What I meant by "the evidence was clear" was that there was nothing that he had done to that point to suggest that his prospects were any better than those of a random collegiate seven-footer. In the clips I watched, I saw below-average aggression toward the basket on the offensive end, as well as many other concerns. I detailed them in post #23 of this thread, which I started the day before the draft:

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f7/dx-noel-vs-len-196467.html?highlight=noel

I'd invite anyone to break down that video similarly and come to a different conclusion.



That isn't what I saw.

gotta agree with all of this and the above and the injury problems were the reason I wasn't crazy with the pick (an understatement, I know).