Suns @ Hawks 2-23-19

[Mainstreet]

For what it is worth, I really enjoyed the Hawks game last night. I finally saw someone playing next to Booker who compliments him in Tyler Johnson.

He may not be the answer at point guard but the Suns back court was really dynamic. This was a long time coming. It showed me what a point guard can do playing next to Booker.

Unfortunately, when Trae Young came back in the game with the Suns winning by about 8, I thought the momentum would shift and it did which is not surprising. Otherwise, I thought the Suns would win the game.

Last night's game gave me hope for the Suns future beyond this season. I hope the Suns carry over what I saw last night.

 

[sunsfan88]

I don’t think people have formed cliques. I think some people lump groups of us together in attempts to generalize about, and miscast, us.

For instance, I don’t scapegoat Ayton. I breakdown his negatives. But I’ve never even suggested he is the reason for this season’s putridity. A contributing factor? Sure. But we’ve talked about the myriad other contributing factors as well . . . some to death. But it’s easier to lump anyone who dares speak negatively about any aspect of ayton’s game together and throw generalizations than it is to address specific points being discussed.

You’re right.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don't know about others but I really feel I'm somewhere in the middle on most of the topics here of late but I'm frequently being lumped into one side or the other (sometimes both). I like Ayton, I think he's performing like a good rookie with a very promising future. But I think like most 20 year old rookies he's a long ways from being able to help this team win consistently.

And I like what little I know of Koko in the past but I've seen nothing from this team (except for a few excellent defensive performances) that says he can coach this group. But I'm also not comfortable with putting him in the problem category as I'm unable to tell what is poor coaching as opposed to roster construction.

Another hot topic that might seem to have created cliques here has been the play of Booker. I'm very disappointed with Devin's performance this season which might put me in one camp but most of what bothers me about his play this season is position and injury related so I'm also at odds with the "he's overrated or we should trade him now" groups.

I think I am with you on this. I like Ayton. I am not disappointed with him, but I did hope he would be a bit better out of the box. I was hoping for an Embiid level player, but it doesn't look like we are going to get that unless he changes his attitude on defense.

I was hopeful with Igor. I still am. I am not sure he is the problem with this team. It is hard to do well when you are starting three rookies most of the time. Maybe its Igor, but that just does make sense to me, and changing right now does not seem like a good idea.

Booker is a problem to me. He shoots the highest volume with low efficiency. Yes, we need a pg, but Booker was better last year without a pg than he is this year without a pg. I am not advocating trading him, but I am willing to admit that his play is a problem lately. He can do better, we have seen it.

When I look at the talent we have, this team should be better than it is. It just should be. They are capable of playing quality D, but do so only on occasion.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't know about others but I really feel I'm somewhere in the middle on most of the topics here of late but I'm frequently being lumped into one side or the other (sometimes both). I like Ayton, I think he's performing like a good rookie with a very promising future. But I think like most 20 year old rookies he's a long ways from being able to help this team win consistently.

And I like what little I know of Koko in the past but I've seen nothing from this team (except for a few excellent defensive performances) that says he can coach this group. But I'm also not comfortable with putting him in the problem category as I'm unable to tell what is poor coaching as opposed to roster construction.

Another hot topic that might seem to have created cliques here has been the play of Booker. I'm very disappointed with Devin's performance this season which might put me in one camp but most of what bothers me about his play this season is position and injury related so I'm also at odds with the "he's overrated or we should trade him now" groups.[/QUOTE]

is there really a group of these people? I've seen one or two posters really in that camp but not many others.

 

[taz02]

We finally had a real PG in the Hawks game and still lost. If Igor's system is really a PG away from being a winning formula it seems to me we should have won that game.

The Hawks have the 4th worst record in the NBA and were playing on a back to back. We are likely not going to sign a PG that plays anywhere near that level on a nightly basis.

 

[Chaplin]

I don't know about others but I really feel I'm somewhere in the middle on most of the topics here of late but I'm frequently being lumped into one side or the other (sometimes both). I like Ayton, I think he's performing like a good rookie with a very promising future. But I think like most 20 year old rookies he's a long ways from being able to help this team win consistently.

And I like what little I know of Koko in the past but I've seen nothing from this team (except for a few excellent defensive performances) that says he can coach this group. But I'm also not comfortable with putting him in the problem category as I'm unable to tell what is poor coaching as opposed to roster construction.

Another hot topic that might seem to have created cliques here has been the play of Booker. I'm very disappointed with Devin's performance this season which might put me in one camp but most of what bothers me about his play this season is position and injury related so I'm also at odds with the "he's overrated or we should trade him now" groups.

This is pretty much where I lie.

 

[Chaplin]

I think I am with you on this. I like Ayton. I am not disappointed with him, but I did hope he would be a bit better out of the box. I was hoping for an Embiid level player, but it doesn't look like we are going to get that unless he changes his attitude on defense.

I was hopeful with Igor. I still am. I am not sure he is the problem with this team. It is hard to do well when you are starting three rookies most of the time. Maybe its Igor, but that just does make sense to me, and changing right now does not seem like a good idea.

Booker is a problem to me. He shoots the highest volume with low efficiency. Yes, we need a pg, but Booker was better last year without a pg than he is this year without a pg. I am not advocating trading him, but I am willing to admit that his play is a problem lately. He can do better, we have seen it.

When I look at the talent we have, this team should be better than it is. It just should be. They are capable of playing quality D, but do so only on occasion.

Embiid level? What exactly is that? If you expected Embiid of today, there was no way that was going to happen. He didn’t even play until
His third year so at least he had some idea of the NBA grind and even how conditioning in the league works—well before he ever played. Ayton didn’t have that. And it’s a pretty good argument that at both college and pro, he hasn’t received even average coaching. That contributes a lot to where he is now.

 

[Chaplin]

cheesebeef’s quote

This I agree with (the response within the quote). I’ve seen people go crazy about Booker on RealGM, but not here. And let’s face it, a lot of the extreme opinions on this forum for ANY player really are given in the heat of the moment and for the most part most people walk back or at least can legitimize the opinion, even if it is given later without the same level of extremity.

 

[Mainstreet]

We finally had a real PG in the Hawks game and still lost. If Igor's system is really a PG away from being a winning formula it seems to me we should have won that game.

The Hawks have the 4th worst record in the NBA and were playing on a back to back. We are likely not going to sign a PG that plays anywhere near that level on a nightly basis.

One game is not a fair test.

It's not like the Suns are going to set the world on fire but they played much better against the Hawks and Johnson had a big role in that.

I can see the Suns winning some games if he continues to play like that.

 

[Chaplin]

One game is not a fair test.

It's not like the Suns are going to set the world on fire but they played much better against the Hawks and Johnson had a big role in that.

I can see the Suns winning some games if he continues to play like that.

Right now last night was the exception. I fully expect him to go back to how he played before the Hawks game. The only thing he’s been consistent at is being inconsistent.

 

[GatorAZ]

Yeah not sure how anyone projected Ayton to be like Embiid. The comparison Billups made on draft night was stupid given their skill sets. Ayton will always be more like Towns than Embiid.

 

[Chaplin]

Yeah not sure how anyone projected Ayton to be like Embiid. The comparison Billups made on draft night was stupid given their skill sets. Ayton will always be more like Towns than Embiid.

And if we’re talking about potential, why can’t David Robinson be that, like it was originally?

Yes The Admiral was a great defender, but I’m not sold on the narrative that Ayton can’t ever be a good defender.

 

[AzStevenCal]

is there really a group of these people? I've seen one or two posters really in that camp but not many others.

I think there's probably a half dozen (active) here that fall into that group. And if you include RealGM, it starts to feel like a majority.

 

[Mainstreet]

Right now last night was the exception. I fully expect him to go back to how he played before the Hawks game. The only thing he’s been consistent at is being inconsistent.

This could well be true. However, I think a fresh start will help Tyler.

It took awhile for him to get used to the Suns style of play.

He is capable of putting up about 11 points a game and 3 assists, which for the Suns is a step in the right direction.

The big thing is he will take pressure off Booker.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah not sure how anyone projected Ayton to be like Embiid. The comparison Billups made on draft night was stupid given their skill sets. Ayton will always be more like Towns than Embiid.

I think you are right. Ayton compares better to Towns.

Also Embiid missed his first two seasons to start his NBA career.

I think we all need to take a step back and give Ayton a break.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Booker is a problem to me. He shoots the highest volume with low efficiency. Yes, we need a pg, but Booker was better last year without a pg than he is this year without a pg. I am not advocating trading him, but I am willing to admit that his play is a problem lately. He can do better, we have seen it.

When I look at the talent we have, this team should be better than it is. It just should be. They are capable of playing quality D, but do so only on occasion.

Well, I was certainly including you when I later said that there are probably a half dozen posters here that believe he is overrated and/or should be traded. You have suggested both several times and you may even be right. But while his efficiency isn't where we want it, there are very good reasons for it namely that he's been playing injured and out of position. Even still though, his true shooting percentage is .570 which really is not horrible, especially since he so rarely gets fully open or single covered. Klay Thompson, for example, even though he's surrounded by tremendous players, is at .568.

If I were going to rip Booker, it would be for time missed and time playing when he shouldn't because of injury limitations. And then I'd go after him for his absurd turnovers and his referee confrontations. I know that's probably him just trying to be a leader and sticking up for his teammates but he's too invested in it. He needs to calm down, shut up, and just play basketball for awhile. But I'd also point out that even with his shortcomings he's putting up positive numbers that are almost unheard of for a 22 year old.

 

[GatorAZ]

I think you are right. Ayton compares better to Towns.

Also Embiid missed his first two seasons to start his NBA career.

I think we all need to take a step back and give Ayton a break.

You could tell from Embiid’s short stint in college that he was physical and took defense personally. Ayton talks a big game and patterns his game after KG. Maybe he meant Kendall Gill?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You could tell from Embiid’s short stint in college that he was physical and took defense personally. Ayton talks a big game and patterns his game after KG. Maybe he meant Kendall Gill?

Kendall Gill was a superior defender too. Albeit at the wing position.

 

[Raze]

I don't know about others but I really feel I'm somewhere in the middle on most of the topics here of late but I'm frequently being lumped into one side or the other (sometimes both). I like Ayton, I think he's performing like a good rookie with a very promising future. But I think like most 20 year old rookies he's a long ways from being able to help this team win consistently.

And I like what little I know of Koko in the past but I've seen nothing from this team (except for a few excellent defensive performances) that says he can coach this group. But I'm also not comfortable with putting him in the problem category as I'm unable to tell what is poor coaching as opposed to roster construction.

Another hot topic that might seem to have created cliques here has been the play of Booker. I'm very disappointed with Devin's performance this season which might put me in one camp but most of what bothers me about his play this season is position and injury related so I'm also at odds with the "he's overrated or we should trade him now" groups.

Solid post.

I'd like to add:

Koko also has to deal with arguably one of the worst FO in sports. Sarver is worse than people are giving him credit. I just spoke to an ex Suns employee that said his experience with Sarver proved he was cheap and controlling. It's not a pleasant place to work. Which is pretty much what we see from the outside. Problem #1 is the owner. Getting a new HC isn't EVER going to fix that. Best we can hope for is that someone is able to thrive in these awful conditions. I wonder if even Pop could survive long term here. This topic seems to eliminate all cliques and it's something that should constantly be held up among us barely surviving fans.

Koko is also stuck starting players that are: 22, 20, 22, 20, and 25 years old. It's just impossible to win without any real experience. Their game IQ is pathetic. Which isn't their fault. Players under 25 rarely have high game IQs. Time will season them well. (so we get to wait 4 years or so)

However, I do hold Koko somewhat culpable for the defensive atrocity (2nd Worst Drtg). They are truly terrible to watch on D. I'm much more old school and believe D wins championships more than O. So I spend more time watching D. Part of the problem is the lack of experience, part is due to Koko giving almost D'Antoni kind of attention to it. It has to change or it will be his down fall.

It also hurts us that our best player is absolutely terrible at D. I still believe we can win with Book, but he HAS to have 4 solid defenders around him AND a HC who will press the D mindset. (ala Steve Kerr as opposed to D'antoni who continues to prove that no D equates to no Championships.)

Picking absolutes with Koko or Book's culpability is extremely difficult to do given the circumstances. I know this era struggles with patience, but that has to be our 8 year long banner tag. (The "good news" is that we're about 4 years in).

 

[sdscard4]

No long post needed. Worst in the league. Worst coach in the league. Despite all that love the talent on the team.

 

[1tinsoldier]

no one has personal reasons to not "like" Booker, Ayton, or Igor.

no one needs to contrive reasons to criticize the team with the worst record in the NBA,the worst record in Suns history, on a 17 game losing streak.

granted, some of us were more willing to admit to the problems earlier in the season than others

 

[JCSunsfan]

Embiid level? What exactly is that? If you expected Embiid of today, there was no way that was going to happen. He didn’t even play until
His third year so at least he had some idea of the NBA grind and even how conditioning in the league works—well before he ever played. Ayton didn’t have that. And it’s a pretty good argument that at both college and pro, he hasn’t received even average coaching. That contributes a lot to where he is now.

No. I did not expect that today. You are right, that would be an unreasonable expectation. As far as Embiid, Robinson, KAT, I don't care. That's just arguing about game nuances. It was the Embiid level of impact that I was hoping for some day. I am not as optimistic that Ayton might reach that now than I was at draft time. I am not saying it cannot happen, but my expectations have dropped some.

 

[Chaplin]

No. I did not expect that today. You are right, that would be an unreasonable expectation. As far as Embiid, Robinson, KAT, I don't care. That's just arguing about game nuances. It was the Embiid level of impact that I was hoping for some day. I am not as optimistic that Ayton might reach that now than I was at draft time. I am not saying it cannot happen, but my expectations have dropped some.

I'm wondering what you saw that made you think of Embiid in the first place.

 

[GatorAZ]

Kendall Gill was a superior defender too. Albeit at the wing position.

You’re older so maybe you remember but why did Charlotte breakup that Mourning-LJ-Gill core?

 

[Mainstreet]

You could tell from Embiid’s short stint in college that he was physical and took defense personally. Ayton talks a big game and patterns his game after KG. Maybe he meant Kendall Gill?

What I am saying is Embiid was out two seasons to start his career while Ayton started his career right away. Thus Ayton has two seasons to further develop his game before a fair comparison can be made to Embiid's rookie season.

Ayton looks similar to Towns early in his career but lets see how he develops.