Suns @ Jazz Monday game thread 2-24-20

[leclerc]

Point Book doesn't work when he's doubled all the time especially by a physical defender like <name>.

 

[Mainstreet]

Especially if he continues to make shots. But, he needs to be paired with someone who can run the offense, and Okobo is not it. With either Rubio and Booker I think it can work.

I agree about the pairing part but this sort of puts Carter in a shooting guard role. Regardless, Carter is the Suns best guard off the bench. They do not have better options unless Jerome develops somewhere down the road. The consistent with Carter, he will play defense every night.

 

[Ronin]

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[JCSunsfan]

Right now, when healthy, the Suns are a better team than the Jazz. I believe that. Our greatest weakness is our back up pg position, not the pf position. Okobo is such a net negative on the floor it is hard to comprehend. He just throws the ball away. Okobo is not a pg. He is barely a 2, but definitely out of his element trying to direct traffic. This team is better simply NOT playing Okobo. With Oubre and Mikal in the starting lineup and Baynes, Saric, and eventually Kaminsky coming off the bench, I think we are solid there. Our options for the guard position?

1. Groom Carter as the third guard. I think this is OK. Carter is consistent. As a 3 and D combo guard we know what we are going to get. Honestly, I like this option. It has less unknowns than the rest. His ball handling is OK. He can bring the ball up and then pass to Book to run the offense or play off ball with Rubio. At least we could try it the rest of the season.

2. Go after a FA guard. This is not a good option. Outside of Lowry, I do not see options better than Carter.

3. Trade for a guard. This is fine, but you will have to give something up. I can't even really evaluate this option right now because there are too many unknowns.

4. Draft a guard. The draft should be BPA, but drafting Ball or Haliburton would be an immediate help. Ball can run a team, but his efficiency scares me--too many missed shots and too many turnovers. Haliburton has a higher floor and lower ceiling, but we have done pretty well historically with players like that (Nash, Majerle). Unless we trade up, both players will likely be gone. If we really believe in one of those two, this might be a draft to trade up. I have a feeling that a lot of teams will want to be trading out of this weak draft.

5. Give Mikal guard minutes. I think this might be a good option, if we have enough depth elsewhere.

Right now, the most important thing to do is narrow the rotations. One of either Book and Ricky need to be on the floor at all times (or at least close to it). Carter needs to get primary back up minutes at guard. Mikal should put in a few minutes at guard. Ty Jerome can get a few if the matchup suits. Elie should be done. He should get DNPCD's except for garbage time.

 

[Mainstreet]

my god...i'll say it again and again, okobo is awful...and still comes off the bench first. Just roll with point-Book and get some defensive help from Carter. Carter can also do other things like make 3's or a layup. I'm not sure what the deal is still with the backup guards, Tyler was a castaway to start the season as is Carter, but Carter just never gives up on D. He was hounding Conley and after a while Conely didn't want the ball anymore.

Oubre, whats with all the fumbles, i think he had 2 this time? He picked up a stupid T again, it was the same ref all night making bad calls as Gobert clearly stuck out forearms into his chest.

1st quarter, Ayton actually backed up Gobert with a back and forth pivot move and got the hoop, never seen that before especially against a dpoy.

Booker and Rubio still have to work out some timing issues with Ayton for those lobs.
I was amazed how much love the jazz fans showed rubio, they even had some video playing. And did you notice the boos Conley was getting due to his mistakes.

Ingles and Bogdanovic have two of the most punchable faces in the league.

We totally agree about Carter.

That move by Ayton against Gobert was fantastic. It took awhile to digest because it was a veteran move not expected at this stage of his career. A welcome glimpse into the future.

Mostly have to take the good with the bad with Oubre until he matures. He is a high energy player that makes things happen. The Suns need that.

In regard to Rubio, I think Jazz fans wish they had him back. Conley is a persistent reminder.

Ingles facial reactions always tend to irritate me. Still, I've come to respect him as a player.

 

[GatorAZ]

Right now, when healthy, the Suns are a better team than the Jazz. I believe that. Our greatest weakness is our back up pg position, not the pf position. Okobo is such a net negative on the floor it is hard to comprehend. He just throws the ball away. Okobo is not a pg. He is barely a 2, but definitely out of his element trying to direct traffic. This team is better simply NOT playing Okobo. With Oubre and Mikal in the starting lineup and Baynes, Saric, and eventually Kaminsky coming off the bench, I think we are solid there. Our options for the guard position?

1. Groom Carter as the third guard. I think this is OK. Carter is consistent. As a 3 and D combo guard we know what we are going to get. Honestly, I like this option. It has less unknowns than the rest. His ball handling is OK. He can bring the ball up and then pass to Book to run the offense or play off ball with Rubio. At least we could try it the rest of the season.

2. Go after a FA guard. This is not a good option. Outside of Lowry, I do not see options better than Carter.

3. Trade for a guard. This is fine, but you will have to give something up. I can't even really evaluate this option right now because there are too many unknowns.

4. Draft a guard. The draft should be BPA, but drafting Ball or Haliburton would be an immediate help. Ball can run a team, but his efficiency scares me--too many missed shots and too many turnovers. Haliburton has a higher floor and lower ceiling, but we have done pretty well historically with players like that (Nash, Majerle). Unless we trade up, both players will likely be gone. If we really believe in one of those two, this might be a draft to trade up. I have a feeling that a lot of teams will want to be trading out of this weak draft.

5. Give Mikal guard minutes. I think this might be a good option, if we have enough depth elsewhere.

Right now, the most important thing to do is narrow the rotations. One of either Book and Ricky need to be on the floor at all times (or at least close to it). Carter needs to get primary back up minutes at guard. Mikal should put in a few minutes at guard. Ty Jerome can get a few if the matchup suits. Elie should be done. He should get DNPCD's except for garbage time.

Nah Utah is just in a funk right now. They’ll be fine.

 

[Mainstreet]

Right now, when healthy, the Suns are a better team than the Jazz. I believe that. Our greatest weakness is our back up pg position, not the pf position. Okobo is such a net negative on the floor it is hard to comprehend. He just throws the ball away. Okobo is not a pg. He is barely a 2, but definitely out of his element trying to direct traffic. This team is better simply NOT playing Okobo. With Oubre and Mikal in the starting lineup and Baynes, Saric, and eventually Kaminsky coming off the bench, I think we are solid there. Our options for the guard position?

1. Groom Carter as the third guard. I think this is OK. Carter is consistent. As a 3 and D combo guard we know what we are going to get. Honestly, I like this option. It has less unknowns than the rest. His ball handling is OK. He can bring the ball up and then pass to Book to run the offense or play off ball with Rubio. At least we could try it the rest of the season.

2. Go after a FA guard. This is not a good option. Outside of Lowry, I do not see options better than Carter.

3. Trade for a guard. This is fine, but you will have to give something up. I can't even really evaluate this option right now because there are too many unknowns.

4. Draft a guard. The draft should be BPA, but drafting Ball or Haliburton would be an immediate help. Ball can run a team, but his efficiency scares me--too many missed shots and too many turnovers. Haliburton has a higher floor and lower ceiling, but we have done pretty well historically with players like that (Nash, Majerle). Unless we trade up, both players will likely be gone. If we really believe in one of those two, this might be a draft to trade up. I have a feeling that a lot of teams will want to be trading out of this weak draft.

5. Give Mikal guard minutes. I think this might be a good option, if we have enough depth elsewhere.

Right now, the most important thing to do is narrow the rotations. One of either Book and Ricky need to be on the floor at all times (or at least close to it). Carter needs to get primary back up minutes at guard. Mikal should put in a few minutes at guard. Ty Jerome can get a few if the matchup suits. Elie should be done. He should get DNPCD's except for garbage time.

Jordan Clarkson would help the Suns and he will be a free agent. Moving up for Ball or Haliburton may be costly.

 

[leclerc]

Carter must be the first backup point guard. Okobo can be used as scoring punch rather than playmaker.

 

[leclerc]

Get Clarkson. Not Ball.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Mostly have to take the good with the bad with Oubre until he matures. He is a high energy player that makes things happen. The Suns need that.

We do need a high energy player like Oubre that makes things happen. But I'm not sure his game will ever mature the way we need it to and if it doesn't, I don't think he'll be part of our future. He seems like a great teammate but his play is incredibly selfish and as such he hurts us in ways that don't show up in the stats (other than maybe on/off numbers).

Kelly can be such a positive force at times but he's a lot like Josh Jackson when he's not having a great game. Hopefully Monty will eventually be able to rein him in but I don't believe the current version of Oubre would even see court time if he were playing for someone like Pop.

 

[Superbone]

I'm done with Okobo. He refuses to shoot the ball which makes it easy for opponents to pick off his passes.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Nah Utah is just in a funk right now. They’ll be fine.

Yes, and maybe no. I think they really screwed up with the Conley deal and that along with one or two other additions has really messed up their on court chemistry and if some of the rumors are accurate, it's divided their locker room too.

But assuming they don't overreact this offseason (by firing Quin for example) they should be able to correct a few or their mistakes. I'm just not sure they'll be able to solve their biggest problems this season. They're in a race right now with Denver, LAC and Houston for the 2nd best record in the West but I wouldn't be surprised to see them fall to 7th by the end of the season. Still better than us but nowhere near where they expected to be.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm done with Okobo. He refuses to shoot the ball which makes it easy for opponents to pick off his passes.

It doesn't help that he seems unable to see that defender just standing there waiting to steal his pass - over and over. Booker's awareness in that same situation has improved quite a bit (still needs work) but Okobo doesn't seem to realize he has a problem. And to make it worse, sometimes he just stands there after the turnover. At least Booker would always bust his butt to get back to try and make up for his screw-up by defending or even blocking the shot.

 

[GatorAZ]

Yes, and maybe no. I think they really screwed up with the Conley deal and that along with one or two other additions has really messed up their on court chemistry and if some of the rumors are accurate, it's divided their locker room too.

But assuming they don't overreact this offseason (by firing Quin for example) they should be able to correct a few or their mistakes. I'm just not sure they'll be able to solve their biggest problems this season. They're in a race right now with Denver, LAC and Houston for the 2nd best record in the West but I wouldn't be surprised to see them fall to 7th by the end of the season. Still better than us but nowhere near where they expected to be.

The Conley deal definitely backfired but he’s only under contract through next year.

 

[Mainstreet]

We do need a high energy player like Oubre that makes things happen. But I'm not sure his game will ever mature the way we need it to and if it doesn't, I don't think he'll be part of our future. He seems like a great teammate but his play is incredibly selfish and as such he hurts us in ways that don't show up in the stats (other than maybe on/off numbers).

Kelly can be such a positive force at times but he's a lot like Josh Jackson when he's not having a great game. Hopefully Monty will eventually be able to rein him but I don't believe the current version of Oubre would even see court time if he were playing for someone like Pop.

I know we disagree on Oubre some. The technical he received last night was simply dumb but he had a great game otherwise.

Only two players had a +31 last night and they were Booker and Oubre. A lot of criticism Oubre gets is when he tries to make things happen. This is a double edge sword. Sometimes he forces things but sometimes the Suns need someone to make things happen when their offense bogs down.

Looking at the bigger picture, Oubre has improved his game every season over 5 seasons and is still only 24. He has plenty of time to mature as a person and a player. If he is not part of the Suns future, they will regret it.

 

[Phrazbit]

It doesn't help that he seems unable to see that defender just standing there waiting to steal his pass - over and over. Booker's awareness in that same situation has improved quite a bit (still needs work) but Okobo doesn't seem to realize he has a problem. And to make it worse, sometimes he just stands there after the turnover. At least Booker would always bust his butt to get back to try and make up for his screw-up by defending or even blocking the shot.

Booker's turnovers of late come when he has dribbled into the paint and decided, odds be dammed, he is going to either toss up a lob or a low bounce pass between 2 defenders. The lob works a fair amount of the time, his low bounce pass virtually never does.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I know we disagree on Oubre some. The technical he received last night was simply dumb but he had a great game otherwise.

Only two players had a +31 last night and they were Booker and Oubre. A lot of criticism Oubre gets is when he tries to make things happen. This is a double edge sword. Sometimes he forces things but sometimes the Suns need someone to make things happen when their offense bogs down.

Looking at the bigger picture, Oubre has improved his game every season over 5 seasons and is still only 24. He has plenty of time to mature as a person and a player. If he is not part of the Suns future, they will regret it.

I have a problem with his decision making but not really with the way he forces the action or gambles for steals. My biggest concern is he ignores wide open teammates. That hurts the team and not just in the moment.

Right now his PER indicates he's basically an average player even with his huge swings from game to game and you cannot afford the kind of mistakes he makes from a heavy minutes player that isn't regularly a huge plus in the stats columns. He has too much talent to just give up on him but we're not going to be a consistent winning team if the Oubre we see today is the Kelly he'll always be. So, I'm not calling for his head, just that he start using it.

 

[Phrazbit]

I know we disagree on Oubre some. The technical he received last night was simply dumb but he had a great game otherwise.

Only two players had a +31 last night and they were Booker and Oubre. A lot of criticism Oubre gets is when he tries to make things happen. This is a double edge sword. Sometimes he forces things but sometimes the Suns need someone to make things happen when their offense bogs down.

Looking at the bigger picture, Oubre has improved his game every season over 5 seasons and is still only 24. He has plenty of time to mature as a person and a player. If he is not part of the Suns future, they will regret it.

Oubre has, by far, the worst on court off court splits of our current starters. He is a solid player but I think his value is largely over stated by Suns fans. I like his energy and enthusiasm, teams do need a player like that, but I am really glad we didn't over commit to him. IMO, he is more of a 6th or 7th man than anyone who should sniff a max deal.

He makes a few highlight defensive plays a game but his overall defense is poor. He loses track of his man more than anyone in our starting lineup. In the open court and close to the rim he is a great offensive player, but when he gets it into his head that he is due a shot attempt (and it happens once every 2 or 3 minutes) the result is typically a wasted possession.

He has improved year by year but I would still firmly plant him as our 5th best player and the one I would look to move if an opportunity to make a big splash arose.

 

[BC867]

On a team that has been losing for as long as the Suns,
Oubre is a spark they seem to need.

When they reach the next plateau (over .500), his selfish
play will be a detriment.

Situational basketball.

 

[Mainstreet]

I have a problem with his decision making but not really with the way he forces the action or gambles for steals. My biggest concern is he ignores wide open teammates. That hurts the team and not just in the moment.

Right now his PER indicates he's basically an average player even with his huge swings from game to game and you cannot afford the kind of mistakes he makes from a heavy minutes player that isn't regularly a huge plus in the stats columns. He has too much talent to just give up on him but we're not going to be a consistent winning team if the Oubre we see today is the Kelly he'll always be. So, I'm not calling for his head, just that he start using it.

I think we had the same type conversations about PJ Tucker who is not nearly as talented. We do not see the same things in these two players. Maybe that's because I look at what a player can do first. Every player has weaknesses.

By the way, I saw Oubre passing to other teammates last night. Maybe that was because he didn't have to force the issue. However, some nights he has to be a third scorer to help carry the load.

Of course you are probably thinking it works like that every night when he passes the ball.

 

[Mainstreet]

Oubre has, by far, the worst on court off court splits of our current starters. He is a solid player but I think his value is largely over stated by Suns fans. I like his energy and enthusiasm, teams do need a player like that, but I am really glad we didn't over commit to him. IMO, he is more of a 6th or 7th man than anyone who should sniff a max deal.

He makes a few highlight defensive plays a game but his overall defense is poor. He loses track of his man more than anyone in our starting lineup. In the open court and close to the rim he is a great offensive player, but when he gets it into his head that he is due a shot attempt (and it happens once every 2 or 3 minutes) the result is typically a wasted possession.

He has improved year by year but I would still firmly plant him as our 5th best player and the one I would look to move if an opportunity to make a big splash arose.

The Suns would be hard pressed to replace Oubre. They need him to play well in order to win. If more players brought their "A" game like last night there is less pressure for him to have to produce. If Oubre is guilty of anything, he tries to carry the Suns when they need that third or fourth scorer. Agree about the energy and enthusiasm part. However, Oubre is a good player as well. He is not overrated, ask Monty.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The Suns would be hard pressed to replace Oubre. They need him to play well in order to win. If more players brought their "A" game like last night there is less pressure for him to have to produce. If Oubre is guilty of anything, he tries to carry the Suns when they need that third or fourth scorer. Agree about the energy and enthusiasm part. However, Oubre is a good player as well. He is not overrated, ask Monty.

I like oubre, and I think he’s crucial to winning now, and I hope he continues to mature but I think you overrate him.

 

[Mainstreet]

I like oubre, and I think he’s crucial to winning now, and I hope he continues to mature but I think you overrate him.

The first three points are good enough for me.

 

[Carolinacacti]

I'll take oubre over Josh Jackson and Warren. And when Kelly is blowing kisses to the crowd he is telling all you to kiss his . .

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'll take oubre over Josh Jackson and Warren. And when Kelly is blowing kisses to the crowd he is telling all you to kiss his . .

Warren is a better player right now than Oubre but I'd take Kelly over either one of them too. But that isn't what we're talking about. Kelly's lows are too low for a good team to survive. Right now we need him to play well just to have a chance most nights. But he buries us far too often and that needs to change if he's going to be a core player for us. I like a lot about him and as I've said, it's far too early to give up on him. But there are concerns.