Suns @ Jazz Monday game thread 2-24-20

[AzStevenCal]

I think we had the same type conversations about PJ Tucker who is not nearly as talented. We do not see the same things in these two players. Maybe that's because I look at what a player can do first. Every player has weaknesses.

By the way, I saw Oubre passing to other teammates last night. Maybe that was because he didn't have to force the issue. However, some nights he has to be a third scorer to help carry the load.

Of course you are probably thinking it works like that every night when he passes the ball.

I liked Tucker quite a bit but I hated that he would force a shot amongst the trees when he'd grab an offensive rebound or when he'd ignore teammates on a fast break. I never really thought he was a selfish player, more like he'd get a case of tunnel-vision in those situations. But I didn't really turn on him until he sort of quit on the team. He has always been one of the hardest workers but there was a point where he started mailing it in unless it was a big game or he was matched up against a Paul George or Anthony Davis type. And then he'd shine.

Around that time there were rumors that he'd gone back to heavy drinking which had been a problem for him at Texas too (not to mention all those late night burrito trips). That season he was penalized for missing a team bus and again for missing a team flight IIRC. That's not the kind of example we needed from one of our few veterans given all the teenagers on that squad.

I'm just guessing here but I suspect our constant losing and the coaching genius of Earl Watson probably wore him out. For a guy who got where he was by outworking everyone around him, it shouldn't have been such a huge surprise to me that he went that way. At the time though, I really had no clue how much of a joke Earl was so this is all hindsight on my part.

And Oubre does pass the ball but all too often it's him passing out of a problem rather than setting up a teammate. If this is coming across like I don't want him here, that isn't the case at all. He's a very exciting player and I love his personality even though I've never cared for the "look at me" theatrics. I want him to succeed and stay in Phoenix, I'm just saying there needs to be a fundamental shift in his approach for that to happen. He needs to become a better team player, it's that simple.

 

[Hoop Head]

Warren is a better player right now than Oubre but I'd take Kelly over either one of them too. But that isn't what we're talking about. Kelly's lows are too low for a good team to survive. Right now we need him to play well just to have a chance most nights. But he buries us far too often and that needs to change if he's going to be a core player for us. I like a lot about him and as I've said, it's far too early to give up on him. But there are concerns.

I wouldn't say Warren is the better player now, he's way too one dimensional and is a poor defender. Kelly isn't a great defender, probably average, but he's so active that I think he fools people into believing he's a better defender than he truly is. He's still average, which is better than Warren, and he's also better at creating his own shot.

I know 2 points is 2 points but I'll take how Kelly scores compared to TJ any day of the week also because he can actually spark a run with his enthusiasm and energy. I don't know how many times I looked at the box score and saw TJ scored 23 points but wondered when that happened because he didn't seem to make shots when it mattered and was quiet on the court. When Kelly scores 20+ though, you know it and so does everyone watching. That energy is infectious and is a huge reason why he's a much better partner for Booker on the wing than TJ was.

You must be registered for see images attach

Their stats this year are very similar, with Kelly playing a little more but both scoring about the same amount, TJ is doing so more efficiently but Oubre is probably doing so more impactfully. I wish there was a measurement for that because I believe it does matter, especially on a young team that has a history of feeling bad for themselves and rolling over to die when things aren't going their way.

http://bkref.com/tiny/7bayN

 

[Mainstreet]

I liked Tucker quite a bit but I hated that he would force a shot amongst the trees when he'd grab an offensive rebound or when he'd ignore teammates on a fast break. I never really thought he was a selfish player, more like he'd get a case of tunnel-vision in those situations. But I didn't really turn on him until he sort of quit on the team. He has always been one of the hardest workers but there was a point where he started mailing it in unless it was a big game or he was matched up against a Paul George or Anthony Davis type. And then he'd shine.

Around that time there were rumors that he'd gone back to heavy drinking which had been a problem for him at Texas too (not to mention all those late night burrito trips). That season he was penalized for missing a team bus and again for missing a team flight IIRC. That's not the kind of example we needed from one of our few veterans given all the teenagers on that squad.

I'm just guessing here but I suspect our constant losing and the coaching genius of Earl Watson probably wore him out. For a guy who got where he was by outworking everyone around him, it shouldn't have been such a huge surprise to me that he went that way. At the time though, I really had no clue how much of a joke Earl was so this is all hindsight on my part.

And Oubre does pass the ball but all too often it's him passing out of a problem rather than setting up a teammate. If this is coming across like I don't want him here, that isn't the case at all. He's a very exciting player and I love his personality even though I've never cared for the "look at me" theatrics. I want him to succeed and stay in Phoenix, I'm just saying there needs to be a fundamental shift in his approach for that to happen. He needs to become a better team player, it's that simple.

I didn't mean to drag PJ Tucker into the conversation other than we view how he played differently. When Tucker got tunnel vision I didn't necessarily think he was being selfish. It was more he didn't want to turn the ball over when he got locked-in. Tucker was not the best passer.

I see a lot of this with Oubre once he makes the decision to go to the basket. A lot of players turn the ball over once they change their mind in the middle of a move. Some players are better passing out than others. Often it results in a worse shot or a turnover. I think some of this is going on with Oubre as he learns.

Oubre will get better at passing the ball as the team develops more options. Too often he reacts like he has to carry the team and many nights he does outside of Booker and Ayton.

I see lots of room for improvement with Oubre and it should not take a lot for him to get better. For instance if Oubre could develop some pump fakes especially in traffic it would be easier for him to score. Opponents time his shot which often results in blocked shots. Also if he learns to use his body to create fouls he would more easily get to the free throw line.

In short Oubre is a work in progress with plenty of time to learn. Maybe where we differ is I see his upside and perhaps you view him more critically as a more finished product. Bottom line, Suns need to add talent not lose it.

 

[Phrazbit]

I didn't mean to drag PJ Tucker into the conversation other than we view how he played differently. When Tucker got tunnel vision I didn't necessarily think he was being selfish. It was more he didn't want to turn the ball over when he got locked-in. Tucker was not the best passer.

I see a lot of this with Oubre once he makes the decision to go to the basket. A lot of players turn the ball over once they change their mind in the middle of a move. Some players are better passing out than others. Often it results in a worse shot or a turnover. I think some of this is going on with Oubre as he learns.

Oubre will get better at passing the ball as the team develops more options. Too often he reacts like he has to carry the team and many nights he does outside of Booker and Ayton.

I see lots of room for improvement with Oubre and it should not take a lot for him to get better. For instance if Oubre could develop some pump fakes especially in traffic it would be easier for him to score. Opponents time his shot which often results in blocked shots. Also if he learns to use his body to create fouls he would more easily get to the free throw line.

In short Oubre is a work in progress with plenty of time to learn. Maybe where we differ is I see his upside and perhaps you view him more critically as a more finished product. Bottom line, Suns need to add talent not lose it.

I don't think Oubre's lack off passing has anything to do with a lack of options. He dribbles into triple teams while Booker is on the court, regularly.

Oubre is a classic "low basketball IQ and irrationally confident" player. I think he is one of the better versions of that type of player, but the gambling mistakes he makes on defense and his, occasionally, extreme selfishness on offense, those are personality traits, not inexperience traits.

I don't want people to get the impression that I think Oubre is terrible, not at all. But when I hear people saying that we should have locked him up longer, call him a blossoming star... I give pause. IMO, he would be best used with a diminished role, right now we don't have the talent to diminish it.

 

[95pro]

Similar stats but Oubre just brings energy to the game. I'm sure he's more loved than Warren from his teammates as well, chemistry is always underrated. Oubre can be demoralizing: Steal and dunk on you or an emphatic block, yes ; but also to our own team, with gambling for steals and tunnel vision. I think as we, as a team, progress that his tunnel vision will be less of a problem. The players each have their own issues but Oubre helps us more than a Warren would.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Similar stats but Oubre just brings energy to the game. I'm sure he's more loved than Warren from his teammates as well, chemistry is always underrated. Oubre can be demoralizing: Steal and dunk on you or an emphatic block, yes ; but also to our own team, with gambling for steals and tunnel vision. I think as we, as a team, progress that his tunnel vision will be less of a problem. The players each have their own issues but Oubre helps us more than a Warren would.

This is a big part of why I prefer Kelly to Warren although I think TJ's shooting efficiency makes him the better player right now. But between his stand-offish personality and the mysterious injuries I think Warren had more than worn out his welcome here. The other players all seem to genuinely like Oubre and they are passionate when showing support for his effort. We didn't see much of that with Warren.

 

[leclerc]

1st quarter, Ayton actually backed up Gobert with a back and forth pivot move and got the hoop, never seen that before especially against a dpoy.

One of the highlights of the game for me. He didn't play scared. Even Baynes threw up weak stuff because of Goober.