Suns lose again

[sdscard4]

I want a PF and a PG don't care if it's the draft or FA or a trade. Draft BPA most important move is getting rid of this coaching staff

 

[1tinsoldier]

i agree that coaching is a major priority
but regardless of the damage they can do in another season
who we draft or trade for could impact us for up to a decade or more

 

[1Sun]

i like Tyler's effort, but i'm not a fan of his pg skills

He doesn't have PG skills, which is okay, because he is a back-up SHOOTING GUARD.

 

[1tinsoldier]

well, at .37% he's not much of a shooting guard either

 

[SirStefan32]

I don't know what the Ignore Squad folks are saying, but I am not crazy about a rookie PG either. I admit I've seen very little college basketball, so I may be grossly undervaluing Morant. I would much prefer an established point guard, especially if he can defend and shoot. Morant, from what I've seen, can't do either. Again, I've seen only a handful of games, so maybe I am missing something.

 

[Chaplin]

I don't know what the Ignore Squad folks are saying, but I am not crazy about a rookie PG either. I admit I've seen very little college basketball, so I may be grossly undervaluing Morant. I would much prefer an established point guard, especially if he can defend and shoot. Morant, from what I've seen, can't do either. Again, I've seen only a handful of games, so maybe I am missing something.

That’s nice and all, but the odds on getting a vet point guard that moves the needle more than Tyler Johnson are next to nothing.

 

[SirStefan32]

That’s nice and all, but the odds on getting a vet point guard that moves the needle more than Tyler Johnson are next to nothing.

Well sure, but that can be said about just about anyone. If I can't secure Holiday or someone like that, then I draft Morant, but ideally, I'd prefer someone who is not a rookie who can't shoot or defend.

 

[Cheesebeef]

i agree that coaching is a major priority
but regardless of the damage they can do in another season
who we draft or trade for could impact us for up to a decade or more

coaching doesn't seem to be changing, (for better or worse... I suspect worse, but that's another subject) so there's no reason to belabor the point right now, IMO which is why I agree with your last statement.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well sure, but that can be said about just about anyone. If I can't secure Holiday or someone like that, then I draft Morant, but ideally, I'd prefer someone who is not a rookie who can't shoot or defend.

would you give up the 2nd pick in the draft to get Holiday?

 

[Chaplin]

Well sure, but that can be said about just about anyone. If I can't secure Holiday or someone like that, then I draft Morant, but ideally, I'd prefer someone who is not a rookie who can't shoot or defend.

Well you won’t get Holliday before the draft, so it will have to be as Cheese said—a draft day trade. I just don’t think the #2 is on the table for Holliday.

 

[1Sun]

well, at .37% he's not much of a shooting guard either

He is a so-so back-up shooting guard, which is what I said when the Suns traded for him.

 

[1Sun]

That’s nice and all, but the odds on getting a vet point guard that moves the needle more than Tyler Johnson are next to nothing.

Then we're officially screwed, because Johnson as a point guard does not move the needle at all, and Morant as a rookie would move the needle negatively.

 

[Covert Rain]

Well you won’t get Holliday before the draft, so it will have to be as Cheese said—a draft day trade. I just don’t think the #2 is on the table for Holliday.

If we drop out of the top 2 I am all for a trade for a legit PG. I think it’s going to be harder to get a PG as you say that moves the needle later in the draft verses a serviceable PF later in the draft.

 

[SirStefan32]

would you give up the 2nd pick in the draft to get Holiday?

Yes, but with a disclaimer that I really haven't watched any of the prospects enough to be reasonably sure I am right about their value. In general, I would absolutely trade a number two pick in a weak draft for (arguably) the best defensive point guard in the NBA who also happens to be a pretty good scorer.

 

[SirStefan32]

Well you won’t get Holliday before the draft, so it will have to be as Cheese said—a draft day trade. I just don’t think the #2 is on the table for Holliday.

Oh I am not arguing that it is or isn't. I am simply saying I'd rather have an established point guard that we KNOW can play than a rookie who does some things well but has major holes in his game.

 

[taz02]

would you give up the 2nd pick in the draft to get Holiday?

Yes.

 

[Mainstreet]

I thought this tweet by Duane Rankin was interesting. The Suns only had one winning starting lineup out of 28 different ones.

That lineup was Johnson, Booker, Ayton, Oubre and Bender. This lineup beat the Bucks and Warriors.

It doesn't prove anything but it hints when the Suns have competitive starters they can win.

IIRC, Johnson and Oubre went out injured after the Jazz game.

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[Cheesebeef]

Yes, but with a disclaimer that I really haven't watched any of the prospects enough to be reasonably sure I am right about their value. In general, I would absolutely trade a number two pick in a weak draft for (arguably) the best defensive point guard in the NBA who also happens to be a pretty good scorer.

You should really watch some of Morant's games. The dude has IT, IMO. And yes, it is a weak draft, but that's mostly because it's very top heavy. The top 3 of Zion, Morant and Barrett are very talented and then there's a massive drop-off after that.

I also think this team isn't NEARLY as close to being close as I believe you do. Yes, Holiday would make them better in the short term, but to what end? Even with Anthony Davis, Mirotic and Randle, the Pelicans haven't been very good year in year out and were beyond disappointing this year even before the trade demand was made. I fear he's a bit of a band-aid... a REALLY GOOD band-aid, but a band-aid nonetheless that might push this team immediately to be a 40-45 win team next year, but after that, I think we might end up running in mud, up and down between 45-50 wins in the next couple years while being an also-ran in a tough Western Conference. And then when Holiday's contract is up, we'll be screwed. We've endured this much pain to try and be GREAT. I'm not ready to settle at being... okay and or good in a peak season.

Patience right now is key. We were the second worst team in the league last year. For us to truly challenge in the future... which is what we all want... it's still going to need a 3rd super-talented player with star upside to make up a true Big 3. And more than that, I think we're going to need another true alpha dog. We have 1 with Book, but I believe despite Ayton's natural talents, the lack of dog in him will ultimately keep him from being the dominant #2 a title team needs. Make no mistake, he will get better, but I think looking forward, if we're going to put together a title team, we'll need a true blue #2 or even another #1a/b to go along with Booker/Ayton to compete at the highest level long term. Morant has that potential to be one of the players at the most important position on the floor.

 

[Mainstreet]

You should really watch some of Morant's games. The dude has IT, IMO. And yes, it is a weak draft, but that's mostly because it's very top heavy. The top 3 of Zion, Morant and Barrett are very talented and then there's a massive drop-off after that.

I also think this team isn't NEARLY as close to being close as I believe you do. Yes, Holiday would make them better in the short term, but to what end? Even with Anthony Davis, Mirotic and Randle, the Pelicans haven't been very good year in year out and were beyond disappointing this year even before the trade demand was made. I fear he's a bit of a band-aid... a REALLY GOOD band-aid, but a band-aid nonetheless that might push this team immediately to be a 40-45 win team next year, but after that, I think we might end up running in mud, up and down between 45-50 wins in the next couple years while being an also-ran in a tough Western Conference. And then when Holiday's contract is up, we'll be screwed. We've endured this much pain to try and be GREAT. I'm not ready to settle at being... okay and or good in a peak season.

Patience right now is key. We were the second worst team in the league last year. For us to truly challenge in the future... which is what we all want... it's still going to need a 3rd super-talented player with star upside to make up a true Big 3. And more than that, I think we're going to need another true alpha dog. We have 1 with Book, but I believe despite Ayton's natural talents, the lack of dog in him will ultimately keep him from being the dominant #2 a title team needs. Make no mistake, he will get better, but I think looking forward, if we're going to put together a title team, we'll need a true blue #2 or even another #1a/b to go along with Booker/Ayton to compete at the highest level long term. Morant has that potential to be one of the players at the most important position on the floor.

I think Oubre can be one of those cornerstones as well. He is only 23.

 

[SirStefan32]

You should really watch some of Morant's games. The dude has IT, IMO. And yes, it is a weak draft, but that's mostly because it's very top heavy. The top 3 of Zion, Morant and Barrett are very talented and then there's a massive drop-off after that.

I also think this team isn't NEARLY as close to beind Barrett are very talented and then there's a massive drop-off after that.

I also think this team isn't NEARLY as close to being close as I believe you do. Yes, Holiday would make them better in the short term, but to what end? Even with Anthony Davis, Mirotic and Randle, the Pelicans haven't been very good year in year out and were beyond disappointing this year even before the trade demand was made. I fear he's a bit of a band-aid... a REALLY GOOD band-aid, but a band-aid nonetheless that might push this team immediately to be a 40-45 win team next year, but after that, I think we might end up running in mud, up and down between 45-50 wins in the next couple years while being an also-ran in a tough Western Conference. And then when Holiday's contract is up, we'll be screwed. We've endured this much pain to try and be GREAT. I'm not ready to settle at being... okay and or good in a peak season. ng close as I believe you do. Yes, Holiday would make them better in the short term, but to what end? Even with Anthony Davis, Mirotic and Randle, the Pelicans haven't been very good year in year out and were beyond disappointing this year even before the trade demand was made. I fear he's a bit of a band-aid... a REALLY GOOD band-aid, but a band-aid nonetheless that might push this team immediately to be a 40-45 win team next year, but after that, I think we might end up running in mud, up and down between 45-50 wins in the next couple years while being an also-ran in a tough Western Conference. And then when Holiday's contract is up, we'll be screwed. We've endured this much pain to try and be GREAT. I'm not ready to settle at being... okay and or good in a peak season.

Patience right now is key. We were the second worst team in the league last year. For us to truly challenge in the future... which is what we all want... it's still going to need a 3rd super-talented player with star upside to make up a true Big 3. And more than that, I think we're going to need another true alpha dog. We have 1 with Book, but I believe despite Ayton's natural talents, the lack of dog in him will ultimately keep him from being the dominant #2 a title team needs. Make no mistake, he will get better, but I think looking forward, if we're going to put together a title team, we'll need a true blue #2 or even another #1a/b to go along with Booker/Ayton to compete at the highest level long term. Morant has that potential to be one of the players at the most important position on the floor.

Yeah, I think that's where we disagree. I think your argument is excellent and very logical. We just disagree on that one premise. That 10-ish games stretch with Johnson, Booker, Oubre, and Ayton all healthy showed that they can play 50/50 ball with a marginal NBA player at PG. I think Holiday takes them a step further so they can compete every night while Ayton develops, along with other youngsters. After Holiday's contract is up, you have cap space, and you have a better shot with free agents once you have a competitive team.

It also may not be an either-or proposition. Suns could theoretically get a veteran point guard and still draft Morant. You may be right about him, and you've probably seen more of him than I have. My main issue is that what little I've seen of him, I saw no defense and poor shooting. Those are the two things the Suns need. I am OK going into next season with Johnson and Morant at PG, but I would prefer a great defenders who can contribute and score.

 

[SirStefan32]

I think Oubre can be one of those cornerstones as well. He is only 23.

Agreed. I think both Oubre and Bridges will end up being better than people think. Neither may ever make an all star team, but if Booker gets a little better, Ayton develops well, and the Suns find a good point guard, they probably don't need them to be all-stars.

 

[Chaplin]

Oh I am not arguing that it is or isn't. I am simply saying I'd rather have an established point guard that we KNOW can play than a rookie who does some things well but has major holes in his game.

I don’t think you’d get much of an argument there. Problem is, there are some of us that aren’t enthusiastic about the odds of it happening.

 

[GatorAZ]

I wouldn’t do #2 for Jrue unless it’s a pick swap but with Dave Griffin in place it’s not going to happen. If Ja’ is gone and we’re picking 3+ then absolutely straight up. I’m holding out hope Bol Bol has a great pre-draft process makes a beeline for the top-5 improving our trade value potentially.

 

[1Sun]

I thought this tweet by Duane Rankin was interesting. The Suns only had one winning starting lineup out of 28 different ones.

That lineup was Johnson, Booker, Ayton, Oubre and Bender. This lineup beat the Bucks and Warriors.

It doesn't prove anything but it hints when the Suns have competitive starters they can win.

IIRC, Johnson and Oubre went out injured after the Jazz game.

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And the losses against Portland and Utah were blowouts, and with the exception of the Lakers game (where they got off to a red hot start and then blew their own huge lead), they had to come back from huge deficits for those wins, even the home win against the NBA-worst Knicks. In my opinion, that 7 game stretch is very much overhyped as cause for hope.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think Oubre can be one of those cornerstones as well. He is only 23.

I don't discount Oubre. I think he can be a fantastic fourth piece... or maybe even a 3b with Ayton. But I don't think he's the game-changer this team will need moving forward to be legit contender year in, year out.

And as far as Bridges is concerned, I think his ceiling is GREAT role player as a 3 and D specialist..., and I do think he'll hit that ceiling, but I'll be surprised if he rises above that. Remember, he's not a super young guy who came out as a freshmen. He's already 22 and even at that age, struggled a lot this season on offense and showed very little ability to create for himself or others. Would be stoked to see that change, but again, that's never been any part of his game, even in college where he had age as advantage over a lot of younger players.