Suns Off-season Thread

[Mainstreet]

That's sort of what I am saying. When I break down the trade, you solidify the backup PG position, don't address the PF position, and is downgrade at the Center position assuming we resign McGee and/or Bizz. I don't see how this really helps the team get better unless you are pinning all your hopes on not only the draft pick but the draft pick helping during this title run (which isn't likely).

The more and more I see trades like this the more it puts me in the keep Ayton camp. At the end of the day, unless trading Ayton gets you to be a more well rounded team I don't see the point. So I am agree with your preference if this is all we can do.

There are not going to be perfect trades or perfect teams.

The value in the trade with the Kings is point guard Davion Mitchell, a replacement center in Richaun Holmes and a high quality young player if the Suns received whoever they draft at #4.

 

[Folster]

yeah... if they wanted to really win, the solution would be to add Collins TO Ayton on the front-line... but there's no way we take on that kind of salary.

I actually think he'd be a great 4 for this team. Maybe move Cam J, one of our expiring "bigs" (Crowder/Dario) and a pick.

Giving up Cam J, that reduces our shooting even more. I think getting Collins would be to play him more as a 5.

 

[Finito]

Giving up Cam J, that reduces our shooting even more. I think getting Collins would be to play him more as a 5.

You would be going ultra small with Collins at 5 and making a bad rebounding team into a horrible rebounding team.

Collins is a perfect stretch 4 in my opinion

We also don’t have the shooters to play 5 out

 

[Folster]

You would be going ultra small with Collins at 5 and making a bad rebounding team into a horrible rebounding team.

Collins is a perfect stretch 4 in my opinion

We also don’t have the shooters to play 5 out

Take a look at Collins last year in ATL before Capella arrived at age 22 compared to Ayton's age 22 year with us. Equalized per 36 minutes.

Rk

Player

Season

Age

G

GS

MP

FG

FGA

FG%

3P

3PA

3P%

2P

2PA

2P%

FT

FTA

FT%

ORB

DRB

TRB

AST

STL

BLK

TOV

PF

PTS

1

Deandre Ayton

2020-21

22​

69​

69​

2115​

7.3​

11.7​

0.626​

0.1​

0.3​

0.2​

7.3​

11.4​

0.639​

2.3​

2.9​

0.769​

3.9​

8.5​

12.4​

1.7​

0.7​

1.4​

1.8​

3.3​

17​

2

John Collins

2019-20

22​

41​

41​

1363​

9.3​

16​

0.583​

1.6​

3.9​

0.401​

7.8​

12.1​

0.642​

3.2​

4​

0.8​

3.1​

7.9​

11​

1.6​

0.8​

1.7​

2​

3.6​

23.4​

They are pretty comparable although Ayton does average about 1.5 more boards a game. The three point shooting is pretty disparate as well. I think he is more of an ideal 5 for what we want, I do think adding a better rebounding 4 would help immensely, but that is needed even if Ayton stays. We need a rebounding 3 and D player at the 4.

 

[Finito]

Take a look at Collins last year in ATL before Capella arrived at age 22 compared to Ayton's age 22 year with us. Equalized per 36 minutes.

Rk

Player

Season

Age

G

GS

MP

FG

FGA

FG%

3P

3PA

3P%

2P

2PA

2P%

FT

FTA

FT%

ORB

DRB

TRB

AST

STL

BLK

TOV

PF

PTS

1

Deandre Ayton

2020-21

22​

69​

69​

2115​

7.3​

11.7​

0.626​

0.1​

0.3​

0.2​

7.3​

11.4​

0.639​

2.3​

2.9​

0.769​

3.9​

8.5​

12.4​

1.7​

0.7​

1.4​

1.8​

3.3​

17​

2

John Collins

2019-20

22​

41​

41​

1363​

9.3​

16​

0.583​

1.6​

3.9​

0.401​

7.8​

12.1​

0.642​

3.2​

4​

0.8​

3.1​

7.9​

11​

1.6​

0.8​

1.7​

2​

3.6​

23.4​

They are pretty comparable although Ayton does average about 1.5 more boards a game. The three point shooting is pretty disparate as well. I think he is more of an ideal 5 for what we want, I do think adding a better rebounding 4 would help immensely, but that is needed even if Ayton stays. We need a rebounding 3 and D player at the 4.

I like Collins but he’s not a 5 at all there’s a reason ATL went out and got Capela.

What do we want to do on offense? Our offense is based on mid range and pick and rolls. Can Collins take a season playing low in the paint? I want Collins on the perimeter if I have him.

 

[Hoop Head]

Take a look at Collins last year in ATL before Capella arrived at age 22 compared to Ayton's age 22 year with us. Equalized per 36 minutes.

Rk

Player

Season

Age

G

GS

MP

FG

FGA

FG%

3P

3PA

3P%

2P

2PA

2P%

FT

FTA

FT%

ORB

DRB

TRB

AST

STL

BLK

TOV

PF

PTS

1

Deandre Ayton

2020-21

22​

69​

69​

2115​

7.3​

11.7​

0.626​

0.1​

0.3​

0.2​

7.3​

11.4​

0.639​

2.3​

2.9​

0.769​

3.9​

8.5​

12.4​

1.7​

0.7​

1.4​

1.8​

3.3​

17​

2

John Collins

2019-20

22​

41​

41​

1363​

9.3​

16​

0.583​

1.6​

3.9​

0.401​

7.8​

12.1​

0.642​

3.2​

4​

0.8​

3.1​

7.9​

11​

1.6​

0.8​

1.7​

2​

3.6​

23.4​

They are pretty comparable although Ayton does average about 1.5 more boards a game. The three point shooting is pretty disparate as well. I think he is more of an ideal 5 for what we want, I do think adding a better rebounding 4 would help immensely, but that is needed even if Ayton stays. We need a rebounding 3 and D player at the 4.

Collins is no more of a 5 than Amare was. It'd be nice to have him as a small ball C occasionally but he should spend no less than 75% of his playing time at PF.

Knowing Atlanta wants to move him, is interested in DA, and would also move Capela, I really think that's the team we need to make a deal with. I don't know all the specifics but if we can send out Ayton and get Capela and Collins back then I'd be ok giving up Cam J as well since odds are we won't be able to afford him anyways with all that payroll.

 

[Folster]

I like Collins but he’s not a 5 at all there’s a reason ATL went out and got Capela.

What do we want to do on offense? Our offense is based on mid range and pick and rolls. Can Collins take a season playing low in the paint? I want Collins on the perimeter if I have him.

It seems like he would be a natural pick and roll/pick and pop player with Book and Paul very similar to Ayton but he is a threat from 3 and has better hands.

These are highlights but he is so much more decisive in his actions than Ayton. The dunking is nice and highlights over emphasize that, but he does a lot of other things well. Reminds me of a cross between Ayton and Stoudemire. Having him locked up for 3 years making an average of 25M per season and a 4th year player option seems doable especially with the spacing he will add on offense. Ayton will be making on average 35M per season and I don't think he adds an extra 10M more in value per season. Factor in we could get Collins and other assets might be worth it.

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[Folster]

Collins can play the 5. You guys are crazy. Dallas beat us with Dwight Powell and Maxi Kleba. Golden State is running Looney and Draymond.

 

[Mainstreet]

Collins can play the 5. You guys are crazy. Dallas beat us with Dwight Powell and Maxi Kleba. Golden State is running Looney and Draymond.

Mostly it's about guards and wings these days and a role playing center. Don't even need a traditional power forward.

 

[Covert Rain]

There are not going to be perfect trades or perfect teams.

The value in the trade with the Kings is point guard Davion Mitchell, a replacement center in Richaun Holmes and a high quality young player if the Suns received whoever they draft at #4.

That's why we need a 3rd team involved. If this is how all these trades are going to pan out? The Suns will not be able to add enough during this "Chris Paul run" to be better without adding a 3rd team in the mix.

 

[Mainstreet]

That's why we need a 3rd team involved. This is how all these trades are going to pan out. The Suns will not be able to add enough during this "Chris Paul run" to be better.

A third team would allow the Suns to add more value if they do a sign and trade with Ayton. So if they must, this might be the way to go. I expect the 2022-23 season could be the last for Chris Paul in Phoenix.

 

[Finito]

It seems like he would be a natural pick and roll/pick and pop player with Book and Paul very similar to Ayton but he is a threat from 3 and has better hands.

These are highlights but he is so much more decisive in his actions than Ayton. The dunking is nice and highlights over emphasize that, but he does a lot of other things well. Reminds me of a cross between Ayton and Stoudemire. Having him locked up for 3 years making an average of 25M per season and a 4th year player option seems doable especially with the spacing he will add on offense. Ayton will be making on average 35M per season and I don't think he adds an extra 10M more in value per season. Factor in we could get Collins and other assets might be worth it.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Highlights are deceiving. The knock on him as that he is soft and doesn’t always play hard there is a reason he was threatening to hold out and the Hawks didn’t want to pay him the max. He’s been on the trade block for two years he’s def not some flawless player. His defense is really bad.

I see nothing Ayton or Amare in Collins. You flat out cannot run the Chris Paul offense again. Booker doesn’t do pick and rolls he’s not a playmaker and Paul is a 100. You don’t get Collins to have him in the paint setting screens playing pick and roll.

Listen I don’t think anything was saving us against the Mavs and it has nothing to do with the Mavs. I think this team lost because of the Suns.

Dallas has Luka and Golden State has Steph. We don’t got that. Book ain’t on that level and Paul is old.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Highlights are deceiving. The knock on him as that he is soft and doesn’t always play hard there is a reason he was threatening to hold out and the Hawks didn’t want to pay him the max. He’s been on the trade block for two years he’s def not some flawless player. His defense is really bad.

I see nothing Ayton or Amare in Collins. You flat out cannot run the Chris Paul offense again. Booker doesn’t do pick and rolls he’s not a playmaker and Paul is a 100. You don’t get Collins to have him in the paint setting screens playing pick and roll.

Listen I don’t think anything was saving us against the Mavs and it has nothing to do with the Mavs. I think this team lost because of the Suns.

Dallas has Luka and Golden State has Steph. We don’t got that. Book ain’t on that level and Paul is old.

this is the central issue with trying to emulate the way those teams are built. Book is great, but he doesn't leave entire defenses scrambling all game long the way Luka/Steph can.

 

[Matt L]

yeah... if they wanted to really win, the solution would be to add Collins TO Ayton on the front-line... but there's no way we take on that kind of salary.

I actually think he'd be a great 4 for this team. Maybe move Cam J, one of our expiring "bigs" (Crowder/Dario) and a pick.

This is what really bugs me. They have a legit chance to be in the finals but they aren't willing to spend into the luxury tax

 

[Muggz]

Relax guys! Flex said we getting a superstar!

I cant wait.

 

[Covert Rain]

Relax guys! Flex said we getting a superstar!

I cant wait.

He met we are getting a soup with stars. Mmmmm...chicken stars.

 

[somethingshesaid]

Well, since James Jones was a bold and intelligent enough GM to make such moves as acquiring Chris Paul--the biggest trade since Jason Kidd and possibly the biggest since Charles Barkley--I feel reasonably confident that if Jones even wants to trade Ayton, he will make a good trade. And if Jones should not trade Ayton but merely show patience, he will probably understand that too. Considering that the Suns franchise *effectively had no GM during much of the time after Jerry and Bryan Colangelo, James Jones is probably the best GM since the Colangelos.

*Mike D'Antoni as GM was just a coach pretending to be a GM, and empty suits like that Lance Blanks guy don't count. There was Steve Kerr, but it seems like Robert Sarver didn't give him a chance.

 

[somethingshesaid]

Here is a recent Suns history question. What are your thoughts on Ricky Rubio, whom I didn't get to observe firsthand?

When Rubio was with other teams (last team I remember him playing for was the Timberwolves), I had the impression of him being a good defender but a poor shooter and mediocre scorer. I recently saw someone else--I can't remember whether it was here or elsewhere--disparage Rubio, calling him "not very good" or something like that; but that doesn't make much sense,. If Rubio was a lousy player, how did the Suns get from the bottom to the bubble--and great success in the bubble--with him? He was evidently good enough that the Thunder would give Chris Paul essentially for him. Am I wrong to suppose that the trade must have been the equivalent of Jeff Hornacek and filler being traded for Charles Barkley, a good player being traded for a superstar?

On the other hand, Rubio seems to get traded by every team that acquires him.

 

[Finito]

Here is a recent Suns history question. What are your thoughts on Ricky Rubio, whom I didn't get to observe firsthand?

When Rubio was with other teams (last team I remember him playing for was the Timberwolves), I had the impression of him being a good defender but a poor shooter and mediocre scorer. I recently saw someone else--I can't remember whether it was here or elsewhere--disparage Rubio, calling him "not very good" or something like that; but that doesn't make much sense,. If Rubio was a lousy player, how did the Suns get from the bottom to the bubble--and great success in the bubble--with him? He was evidently good enough that the Thunder would give Chris Paul essentially for him. Am I wrong to suppose that the trade must have been the equivalent of Jeff Hornacek and filler being traded for Charles Barkley, a good player being traded for a superstar?

On the other hand, Rubio seems to get traded by every team that acquires him.

Rubio will always have a spot in my Suns heart. He was here for a short time but he was part of the spark that started the fire and he seemed like a really great guy.

Getting Rubio would be a best case scenario for the Suns.

 

[Hoop Head]

Here is a recent Suns history question. What are your thoughts on Ricky Rubio, whom I didn't get to observe firsthand?

When Rubio was with other teams (last team I remember him playing for was the Timberwolves), I had the impression of him being a good defender but a poor shooter and mediocre scorer. I recently saw someone else--I can't remember whether it was here or elsewhere--disparage Rubio, calling him "not very good" or something like that; but that doesn't make much sense,. If Rubio was a lousy player, how did the Suns get from the bottom to the bubble--and great success in the bubble--with him? He was evidently good enough that the Thunder would give Chris Paul essentially for him. Am I wrong to suppose that the trade must have been the equivalent of Jeff Hornacek and filler being traded for Charles Barkley, a good player being traded for a superstar?

On the other hand, Rubio seems to get traded by every team that acquires him.

Rubio is about the worst starting PG you can have and hope to be a playoff contender, IMO. He's a great playmaker but terrible shooter. He can score well enough when he has to, driving to the basket, but that, the occasional 3, and 3-4 FT a game is what will get him to his 12-15 points each night. He really only scores to keep defenses honest. If he didn't attack occasionally then they'd play off him entirely and keep him from getting others going, which he's really good.

He's not a Nash or CP3 level playmaker but the reason he's not is because play making is virtually all he does so it's easier for defenses to key on that than it is for Nash or CP3 because Rubio is never going to score 30+ and help his team win by scoring.

He's good defensively. He gambles for a lot of steals but usually he's smart when he does it and sees the open court right away so he'd get the turnover and a basket. He was slowing down when he was here but he was above average, for sure. He'd have trouble with speedy PG's but who doesn't struggle guarding them. He had good sized as well and wouldn't be abused physically by other PG's.

Im probably making him sound better than he is but after the awful PG's we had between Bledsoe demanding a trade and landing Ricky, he seemed like a godsend. We were running a bunch of G-Leaguers who would literally lose their spot in the NBA as a whole after we'd replace them with a slightly better G-Leaguer.

Overall I think he'd be the best backup PG in the league if that's the role he takes on and he'd definitely help a team contend in that role but as a starter he's not going to lead a team to a title or a conference finals. His best days are behind him at this point and he's really only a stop gap starter for a year or two but his team will be looking to upgrade that position sooner than later. Sort of like Crowder as the Suns PF. He's not flashy and won't wow anyone but he's adequate.

OKC did the trade because the CP3 trade because Chris wanted to come here and they were rebuilding. It made no sense to keep him. They got Oubre, Rubio, Ty Jerome, and our 1st this year. They flipped Rubio and Oubre to separate teams for 1st round picks and Jerome was just 1 year into his career. So they ended up with a young prospect and 3 total 1st rounders, which is pretty damn good for what people viewed as the worst contract in the league the previous year when they acquired him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Rubio will always have a spot in my Suns heart. He was here for a short time but he was part of the spark that started the fire and he seemed like a really great guy.

Getting Rubio would be a best case scenario for the Suns.

I agree with your first paragraph although I'm not sure that Rubio still represents the best case scenario for us.

If it's the Rubio that played for us, yes, it's the best case scenario. But a couple of years have passed since the Bubble and to that add injury and who knows what Ricky will be going forward? I'd still want to acquire him but he has a lot of mileage for an about to turn 33 year old point guard.

 

[Finito]

Rubio is about the worst starting PG you can have and hope to be a playoff contender, IMO. He's a great playmaker but terrible shooter. He can score well enough when he has to, driving to the basket, but that, the occasional 3, and 3-4 FT a game is what will get him to his 12-15 points each night. He really only scores to keep defenses honest. If he didn't attack occasionally then they'd play off him entirely and keep him from getting others going, which he's really good.

He's not a Nash or CP3 level playmaker but the reason he's not is because play making is virtually all he does so it's easier for defenses to key on that than it is for Nash or CP3 because Rubio is never going to score 30+ and help his team win by scoring.

He's good defensively. He gambles for a lot of steals but usually he's smart when he does it and sees the open court right away so he'd get the turnover and a basket. He was slowing down when he was here but he was above average, for sure. He'd have trouble with speedy PG's but who doesn't struggle guarding them. He had good sized as well and wouldn't be abused physically by other PG's.

Im probably making him sound better than he is but after the awful PG's we had between Bledsoe demanding a trade and landing Ricky, he seemed like a godsend. We were running a bunch of G-Leaguers who would literally lose their spot in the NBA as a whole after we'd replace them with a slightly better G-Leaguer.

Overall I think he'd be the best backup PG in the league if that's the role he takes on and he'd definitely help a team contend in that role but as a starter he's not going to lead a team to a title or a conference finals. His best days are behind him at this point and he's really only a stop gap starter for a year or two but his team will be looking to upgrade that position sooner than later. Sort of like Crowder as the Suns PF. He's not flashy and won't wow anyone but he's adequate.

OKC did the trade because the CP3 trade because Chris wanted to come here and they were rebuilding. It made no sense to keep him. They got Oubre, Rubio, Ty Jerome, and our 1st this year. They flipped Rubio and Oubre to separate teams for 1st round picks and Jerome was just 1 year into his career. So they ended up with a young prospect and 3 total 1st rounders, which is pretty damn good for what people viewed as the worst contract in the league the previous year when they acquired him.

He’s not Paul or Nash? You mean he’s not one of the 5 greatest point guards of all time? I mean who is?

Are you saying Rubio was “slightly better” than a G Leaguer?

 

[Finito]

I agree with your first paragraph although I'm not sure that Rubio still represents the best case scenario for us.

If it's the Rubio that played for us, yes, it's the best case scenario. But a couple of years have passed since the Bubble and to that add injury and who knows what Ricky will be going forward? I'd still want to acquire him but he has a lot of mileage for an about to turn 33 year old point guard.

I think a veteran playing spot minutes is realistically what we are looking at.

Landing a young stud PG is pretty unrealistic unless we are giving up serious assets and in that case you might aswell move on from Paul. You don’t trade serious assets for a guy to come off the bench

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think a veteran playing spot minutes is realistically what we are looking at.

Landing a young stud PG is pretty unrealistic unless we are giving up serious assets and in that case you might aswell move on from Paul. You don’t trade serious assets for a guy to come off the bench

I don't disagree, I'm just saying that the Rubio of today may no longer be the Rubio that played for us. It's worth the gamble IMO but it's a little more risky than it was the last time we added him.

 

[Finito]

I don't disagree, I'm just saying that the Rubio of today may no longer be the Rubio that played for us. It's worth the gamble IMO but it's a little more risky than it was the last time we added him.

Didn’t he tear his ACL last year?