Suns Off-season Thread

[Covert Rain]

And those 64 wins ultimately meant nothing other than over inflating the teams confidence and the fans perception of them in the playoffs. Those 64 wins didn't stop them from being spanked by an inferior Dallas and putting together the most embarrassing playoff loss in Arizona sports history in game 7.

The reason I don't have much optimism or faith in this team next season is their own doing, both on the court and then their lack of moves during the off-season while other contenders have improved.

The only thing they have going for them is adding Dario, which isn't much. He'll be a 3rd string Center and backup PF. I guess Torrey Craig losing minutes is a good thing considering how bad he was last season.

If we are hanging our hat on Dario to make this team better or at least the same? We are in trouble. There are teams better than us in the West and getting Dario back doesn't change that. We need more help to get out of the West.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If we are hanging our hat on Dario to make this team better or at least the same? We are in trouble. There are teams better than us in the West and getting Dario back doesn't change that. We need more help to get out of the West.

Running it back isn't ideal but IMO it's far better than the alternative. Our difficulty is that we went into the CP era with few tradable assets and it's catching up with us now. We have stockpiled no pieces of real value to give up in order to bring in a true upgrade of our weak spots - all we really have is our future picks. But had we not missed so horribly on Bender, Jackson, Chriss, Ennis and Len or contributed to zeroing out the value of TJ and Jalen, we wouldn't be facing this challenge.

 

[Chaplin]

If we are hanging our hat on Dario to make this team better or at least the same? We are in trouble. There are teams better than us in the West and getting Dario back doesn't change that. We need more help to get out of the West.

Except that isn't the argument. The discussion is whether we are a WORSE team right now. I don't think we are, but measured up to other teams like the Clippers means the gap we saw last season however small is non-existent.

 

[Chaplin]

Running it back isn't ideal but IMO it's far better than the alternative. Our challenge is that we went into the CP era with few tradable assets and it's catching up with us now. We have stockpiled no pieces of real value to give up in order to bring in a true upgrade of our weak spots - all we really have is our future picks. But had we not missed so horribly on Bender, Jackson, Chriss, Ennis and Len or contributed to zeroing out the value of TJ and Jalen, we wouldn't be in this mess.

That's not true -- just because you don't want to give up Bridges or Cam Johnson, doesn't mean they aren't tradable assets. Same with Cam Payne to a lesser extent. Crowder isn't untradable either.

 

[Covert Rain]

Except that isn't the argument. The discussion is whether we are a WORSE team right now. I don't think we are, but measured up to other teams like the Clippers means the gap we saw last season however small is non-existent.

I think we are. We lost Frank and McGee. Dario might give you some of the offense but not all. He definitely will not give you the defense. I repeat. We need more help. Mark it down. Quote me. If we run it back with this team we are NOT winning a title.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That's not true -- just because you don't want to give up Bridges or Cam Johnson, doesn't mean they aren't tradable assets. Same with Cam Payne to a lesser extent. Crowder isn't untradable either.

Sure we can trade them, the point is they aren't excess. No matter how you look at it, we wasted a LOT of draft capital that could help us now. Now, we can add by trade but it uses up our future picks or creates a weakness.

But no, Crowder and Cam Payne aren't tradable assets, they're filler.

 

[Chaplin]

I think we are. We lost Frank and McGee. Dario might give you some of the offense but not all. He definitely will not give you the defense. I repeat. We need more help. Mark it down. Quote me. If we run it back with this team we are NOT winning a title.

Sorry, but mentioning Frank is ridiculous. I like him, but he played in 9 games last season. We were 7-3 with him. But that means we were 57-15 without him.

You again are missing the point though. Nobody is saying we don't need more help. But we are very comparable to last season's team, with Dario and without Javale. The problem, like you said is that other teams got better and we haven't.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think we are. We lost Frank and McGee. Dario might give you some of the offense but not all. He definitely will not give you the defense. I repeat. We need more help. Mark it down. Quote me. If we run it back with this team we are NOT winning a title.

Almost definitely true. But where I disagree with most here is that I don't think trading Bridges, CamJ, Crowder, Saric and CamP for Durant gets us all that much closer to winning a title, if at all.

So, like I said, I believe running it back is our best option. We can get better with a full season from Biyombo and Saric along with further development of Ayton, CamJ, Bridges and even Shamet. None of that may happen but none of them are longshots either. And even if several of them do happen, we may still not win a championship but it puts us in the ballpark IMO.

 

[Hoop Head]

Except that isn't the argument. The discussion is whether we are a WORSE team right now. I don't think we are, but measured up to other teams like the Clippers means the gap we saw last season however small is non-existent.

This is not a 64 win team next season, as constructed. The league as a whole got better while the Suns didn't, they proved they weren't as good as their record indicated.

How much better did the league get? That's debatable but the Suns are no longer a title favorite and might not even be a top 3-4 contender across the league. Golden State, Milwaukee, and Boston are ahead them right now for sure while other teams like Memphis, Dallas, Miami, and Denver might have evened up or surpassed the Suns as well. There are other teams like the Clippers whose health determines where they stand and might end up in range of the Suns as well.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Except that isn't the argument. The discussion is whether we are a WORSE team right now. I don't think we are, but measured up to other teams like the Clippers means the gap we saw last season however small is non-existent.

The argument is both, Chap… that we’re slightly worse and that other teams have gotten better.

At least that’s the discussion to me.

 

[Chaplin]

The argument is both, Chap… that we’re slightly worse and that other teams have gotten better.

At least that’s the discussion to me.

I don't think we're slightly worse, at least not at the moment. It depends on how Dario comes back. A few teams have gotten better, but even with this lineup, there aren't many outside of the Clippers and the Warriors and maybe the Grizz that I'm scared of.

 

[Mainstreet]

I periodically hear rumors Shai Gilgeous-Alexander is available in trade. Now that is a player I'd want the Suns to pursue.

They can run a three guard offense... I don't care.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't think we're slightly worse, at least not at the moment. It depends on how Dario comes back. A few teams have gotten better, but even with this lineup, there aren't many outside of the Clippers and the Warriors and maybe the Grizz that I'm scared of.

I was "scared of" Memphis, GS, Milwaukee and Boston two months before the playoffs started. And now we can add Dallas and the Pelicans into the mix of teams that concern me plus several other East teams that could take the next step.

I think, given good health, we'll be at least as capable as last year. Unfortunately we'll need to be a notch better than last year just to match the on-paper improvements of several teams.

 

[Finito]

I periodically hear rumors Shai Gilgeous-Alexander is available in trade. Now that is a player I'd want the Suns to pursue.

They can run a three guard offense... I don't care.

Giddy has made him expendable

 

[AzStevenCal]

I periodically hear rumors Shai Gilgeous-Alexander is available in trade. Now that is a player I'd want the Suns to pursue.

They can run a three guard offense... I don't care.

If it was anyone other than OKC, I'd have hopes that our draft picks could net us SGA but our picks would be meaningless to that franchise. I guess we could try and get involved in a multi-team trade where we send out 3 or 4 unprotected firsts. If we could bring him in without losing anyone other than maybe CamP or Shamet plus the picks, that could really improve our chances.

 

[Mainstreet]

Giddy has made him expendable

If it was anyone other than OKC, I'd have hopes that our draft picks could net us SGA but our picks would be meaningless to that franchise. I guess we could try and get involved in a multi-team trade where we send out 3 or 4 unprotected firsts. If we could bring him in without losing anyone other than maybe CamP or Shamet plus the picks, that could really improve our chances.

I'd trade four unprotected first round picks for Shai. He is young, talented and under contract for several more seasons.

Shai helps the team now and into the future. He fills a lot of needs.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'd trade four unprotected first round picks for Shai. He is young, talented and under contract for several more seasons.

Shai helps the team now and into the future. He fills a lot of needs.

I think, on paper, that 4 unprotected firsts is a slight overpay but yeah, if we can find another trade partner, I'd make that deal too. Let's face it, barring serious misfortune, if we add SGA to our core of Booker, Ayton, Bridges and CamJ, our future picks wouldn't have a lot of value.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think, on paper, that 4 unprotected firsts is a slight overpay but yeah, if we can find another trade partner, I'd make that deal too. Let's face it, barring serious misfortune, if we add SGA to our core of Booker, Ayton, Bridges and CamJ, our future picks wouldn't have a lot of value.

If I'm going to swing for the fences, this is one of the players, if available, I'd go after. The NBA is going to smaller and smaller lineups.

Suddenly the Suns become a very explosive offensive team and extend their window to contend. James Jones views draft picks as skeletons anyway.

 

[Covert Rain]

Sorry, but mentioning Frank is ridiculous. I like him, but he played in 9 games last season. We were 7-3 with him. But that means we were 57-15 without him.

You again are missing the point though. Nobody is saying we don't need more help. But we are very comparable to last season's team, with Dario and without Javale. The problem, like you said is that other teams got better and we haven't.

No I am not missing the point at all. You are kidding yourself if think Dario fills McGee's shoes alone. The team was better this last season because of DEFENESE. Dario doesn't come close to filling those shoes. I seriously don't understand how you can even compare them.

Almost definitely true. But where I disagree with most here is that I don't think trading Bridges, CamJ, Crowder, Saric and CamP for Durant gets us all that much closer to winning a title, if at all.

So, like I said, I believe running it back is our best option. We can get better with a full season from Biyombo and Saric along with further development of Ayton, CamJ, Bridges and even Shamet. None of that may happen but none of them are longshots either. And even if several of them do happen, we may still not win a championship but it puts us in the ballpark IMO.

I think we can afford to lose all those guys except Bridges. I don't want the team to trade him and IMO that would go against what JJ was saying with "gutting" the team. The only way I include those guys is if we get another solid player to fill one of those spots in addition to KD. I have no faith in Shamet, Cam P. Crowder is one year older and Saric doesn't excite me one bit other than an occasional good game off the bench. I don't care about 60 something wins if it doesn't bring a title.

 

[Chaplin]

No I am not missing the point at all. You are kidding yourself if think Dario fills McGee's shoes alone. The team was better this last season because of DEFENESE. Dario doesn't come close to filling those shoes. I seriously don't understand how you can even compare them.

Dario is weaker on defense, yes, but Dario is better on Offense. They are close to a wash IMO. If you don't agree, that's perfectly fine. They are both bench role players.

 

[Covert Rain]

Dario is weaker on defense, yes, but Dario is better on Offense. They are close to a wash IMO. If you don't agree, that's perfectly fine. They are both bench role players.

He really isn't. Not on his role with this team. He was a 10/4 guy when he was relied on for heavy minutes. That isn't going to happen with Ayton, Cam and Crowder demanding most of the minutes at those spots. McGee gave us 9.2/6.7. There is very little difference offensively between the two and like I said he will replace some offense but not the defense. OVERALL it's not a wash.

 

[Chaplin]

He really isn't. Not on his role with this team. He was a 10/4 guy when he was relied on for heavy minutes. That isn't going to happen with Ayton, Cam and Crowder demanding most of the minutes at those spots. McGee gave us 9.2/6.7. There is very little difference offensively between the two and like I said he will replace some offense but not the defense. OVERALL it's not a wash.

Again we disagree, why can't you at least admit that?

 

[Covert Rain]

Again we disagree, why can't you at least admit that?

It's obvious we disagree. I am saying OVERALL. Why can't you admit that?

 

[Chaplin]

It's obvious we disagree. I am saying OVERALL. Why can't you admit that?

Because I don't agree with you. Why would I "admit" that?

Recency bias is running rampant here. Dario (and especially his chemistry with Cam Payne) was one of the primary reasons we made it to the Finals against the Bucks. Do you not remember that? He was playing well, we made it to the Finals. He goes down in game 1 and we lose the Finals. Doesn't that tell you something?

 

[Finito]

If I'm going to swing for the fences, this is one of the players, if available, I'd go after. The NBA is going to smaller and smaller lineups.

Suddenly the Suns become a very explosive offensive team and extend their window to contend. James Jones views draft picks as skeletons anyway.

SGA would be a huge get. Pretty much two 25ppg players in him and Booker

Your new backcourt
51.3ppg, 10rpg, 10.7apg