Suns Pick Up Options on Goodwin, Len, and Warren

[JCSunsfan]

And you think that makes him NBA calibre? I think that makes him have some proficiency to be a great high school player, but that's a far cry from making him NBA-ready.

After 2 years, those are the very, very LEAST you'd expect a player to do. But other than the horrid shooting, those things you are saying are standard for any basketball player at any level. So the best you can say about him is he went from horrible to below average as a shooter. Sheesh, could you even see him playing in Europe with those kind of "positives"?

By all accounts, Archie has really worked hard. Of course, that makes hope for his eventual usefulness even less. In the end, he is just not that good. He is quick, he is athletic, but he does not have the head or skills for the game.

 

[Chaplin]

By all accounts, Archie has really worked hard. Of course, that makes hope for his eventual usefulness even less. In the end, he is just not that good. He is quick, he is athletic, but he does not have the head or skills for the game.

Unfortunately, working hard isn't the only prerequisite for being a serviceable NBA player. I'm sure there are a number of posters here that would be willing to work hard to be on the Phoenix Suns, but that doesn't mean they can make the team.

To be clear, I do not dislike Archie, and I don't really care one way or another that he IMO is just taking up a roster spot and is kept as a throw-in for a potential trade. I'm more neutral about him and don't understand the love so many people have for a guy that has done nothing to prove he deserves it.

 

[Chaz]

And you think that makes him NBA calibre? I think that makes him have some proficiency to be a great high school player, but that's a far cry from making him NBA-ready.

After 2 years, those are the very, very LEAST you'd expect a player to do. But other than the horrid shooting, those things you are saying are standard for any basketball player at any level. So the best you can say about him is he went from horrible to below average as a shooter. Sheesh, could you even see him playing in Europe with those kind of "positives"?

If he has improved at all, in any capacity, your statement is false.

I think to say that he isn't any better, at all, at anything, from when he was a rookie is just a ridiculous statement. If that were true I don't think they would even exercise his option. I know I wouldn't.

 

[Chaplin]

If he has improved at all, in any capacity, your statement is false.

I think to say that he isn't any better, at all, at anything, from when he was a rookie is just a ridiculous statement. If that were true I don't think they would even exercise his option. I know I wouldn't.

Trade throw-in, that's it.

And good job using semantics as your entire argument.

 

[Chaz]

He hasn't improved one bit since coming into the league

You said it and it is hyperbole. That is my argument.

Trade throw-in, that's it.

And good job using semantics as your entire argument.

Words mean things.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm more neutral about him and don't understand the love so many people have for a guy that has done nothing to prove he deserves it.

Because what little he can do looks really good on a highlight reel. He can run fast and jump high, when the defense forgets to merely get in his way the result is pretty. Its the same reason Harold Minor was hyped as a rising superstar... despite barely possession a backup player's talent, its why Tyrus Thomas and Stromile Swift lingered in the NBA for nearly a decade and made millions.

The list of guys who fit the "run fast jump high... but can't really play basketball" bill is very long. If you look through past drafts each one probably has a couple in them. Fans get super hyped watching them in highlight clips or games where their athletic ability over matches dudes who have no hope of making the NBA (summer league/D-League).

Archie is still young enough that he could theoretically become a serviceable player, IMO he needs to focus on playing off the ball and on his defensive game. However I don't think he has the mentality for it. He is a gargantuan ball hog when he is out there and his defense is similar to his offense, huge risk taker, gambling for steals over and over.

 

[Chaplin]

Because what little he can do looks really good on a highlight reel. He can run fast and jump high, when the defense forgets to merely get in his way the result is pretty. Its the same reason Harold Minor was hyped as a rising superstar... despite barely possession a backup player's talent, its why Tyrus Thomas and Stromile Swift lingered in the NBA for nearly a decade and made millions.

The list of guys who fit the "run fast jump high... but can't really play basketball" bill is very long. If you look through past drafts each one probably has a couple in them. Fans get super hyped watching them in highlight clips or games where their athletic ability over matches dudes who have no hope of making the NBA (summer league/D-League).

Archie is still young enough that he could theoretically become a serviceable player, IMO he needs to focus on playing off the ball and on his defensive game. However I don't think he has the mentality for it. He is a gargantuan ball hog when he is out there and his defense is similar to his offense, huge risk taker, gambling for steals over and over.

That is a great synopsis, if the guy just finished his rookie year. Unfortunately, that isn't Archie. How long before people realize he won't improve, or if he does improve, it won't be enough to matter?

 

[Mainstreet]

Why do you believe that? What have you seen that makes you think he will become anything more than he is? He hasn't improved one bit since coming into the league, so I'm confused as to what potential you and everyone else on the Goodwin bandwagon sees.

I think Ryan McD sees him as a potential trade asset, and nothing more[/B].

You ask me why I believe it, Archie passes the eye test with me. I'm waiting for the twinkling light to come on and stay on. Only time will tell but I hope he is a Sun when it does.

Archie has tons of athletic talent as you know. It's just too early to write him off especially after he only turned 21 in August. Not many players have a fully developed game at this age. As you mention, Archie is minimally a trade asset. Ryan McDonough believes in him to the tune of $2,094,089 next season. A GM does not pay this type of money unless he feels a player has a chance to be good.

 

[Chaz]

Isn't this just the start of Archie's 3rd season?

Coach was saying this morning on the radio that for most guys the 3rd year is when the game starts to slow down.
If Archie was a top 10 pick I could understand disappointment at his level of development but he is a #29 pick and one of the youngest in nba history.
He might never figure it out but to say he won't after only two seasons I don't understand.
If you can't play you don't score 30 points in a game ever.

 

[Chaplin]

Isn't this just the start of Archie's 3rd season?

Coach was saying this morning on the radio that for most guys the 3rd year is when the game starts to slow down.
If Archie was a top 10 pick I could understand disappointment at his level of development but he is a #29 pick and one of the youngest in nba history.
He might never figure it out but to say he won't after only two seasons I don't understand.
If you can't play you don't score 30 points in a game ever.

I think you're on point if Archie was a big man, because traditionally NBA big men mature later. But shooting guards? That position is rich with talent and if you don't show anything in over 2 years, it's doubtful you'll show anything at all. Because there will be a ton of guys playing the same position that will show something. I think Booker right now has shown more potential and skills than Archie ever has.

My opinion is that he is at best a 10th man, but most likely shouldn't be in the league.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think you're on point if Archie was a big man, because traditionally NBA big men mature later. But shooting guards? That position is rich with talent and if you don't show anything in over 2 years, it's doubtful you'll show anything at all. Because there will be a ton of guys playing the same position that will show something. I think Booker right now has shown more potential and skills than Archie ever has.

My opinion is that he is at best a 10th man, but most likely shouldn't be in the league.

Europe would be a good option for him. He can make a lot of money there and he can stretch his career out. If he really is fortunate he can develop over 4 or 5 years and make a league comeback like Sonny Weems.

 

[Phrazbit]

Isn't this just the start of Archie's 3rd season?

Coach was saying this morning on the radio that for most guys the 3rd year is when the game starts to slow down.
If Archie was a top 10 pick I could understand disappointment at his level of development but he is a #29 pick and one of the youngest in nba history.
He might never figure it out but to say he won't after only two seasons I don't understand.
If you can't play you don't score 30 points in a game ever.

You're right, its not too late and he is very young. But the problems with Archie are ones that historically are very hard to overcome. You don't often see guys go from "horror show" shooting to serviceable and its even rarer that a guy stops being a monumental ball hog.

Whats most troubling about his shooting is that he is bad from every range. Archie isn't even good at the rim (his supposed specialty), his 39% shooting percentage despite taking the lions share of his shots in the restricted area is a dreadful sign. Archie shot 50% at the rim last year, this might seem like a good number but the league average for shots in the restricted area is waaaaay above that. The Suns as a team shot 60% from that range. Thomas, a good 7 inches shorter than Archie, shot 58% from that range. For Archie it goes beyond needing to make a few improvements. His ability with the ball needs a complete overhaul.

 

[Chaplin]

You're right, its not too late and he is very young. But the problems with Archie are ones that historically are very hard to overcome. You don't often see guys go from "horror show" shooting to serviceable and its even rarer that a guy stops being a monumental ball hog.

Whats most troubling about his shooting is that he is bad from every range. Archie isn't even good at the rim (his supposed specialty), his 39% shooting percentage despite taking the lions share of his shots in the restricted area is a dreadful sign. Archie shot 50% at the rim last year, this might seem like a good number but the league average for shots in the restricted area is waaaaay above that. The Suns as a team shot 60% from that range. Thomas, a good 7 inches shorter than Archie, shot 58% from that range. For Archie it goes beyond needing to make a few improvements. His ability with the ball needs a complete overhaul.

And the question comes if he's worth the time and effort... IMO they picked up his option to use in future trades, not to develop into a future NBA player. I think that will actually in the long run turn out to be a mistake. We'll have better options sooner.

 

[Errntknght]

For Archies sake I hope he gets traded soon. Understandably, McD doesn't want to give up on him and see him blossom somewhere else but Archie is going to get totally frustrated this year. He's behind every other guard on the team in terms of what he's proved on the floor so he'd have to become a beast in practice to break into the rotation. He wouldn't be slotted into the rotation on another team but a change of scenery would keep him from getting depressed - and another coach might have a way to reach him and getting him working in the right direction.

Archie may be a hard worker but without strong guidance most of us will practice what we are already good at because that's what we enjoy. Practicing what you are not good at makes practice almost intolerable... or outright intolerable.

 

[Chaplin]

For Archies sake I hope he gets traded soon. Understandably, McD doesn't want to give up on him and see him blossom somewhere else but Archie is going to get totally frustrated this year. He's behind every other guard on the team in terms of what he's proved on the floor so he'd have to become a beast in practice to break into the rotation. He wouldn't be slotted into the rotation on another team but a change of scenery would keep him from getting depressed - and another coach might have a way to reach him and getting him working in the right direction.

Archie may be a hard worker but without strong guidance most of us will practice what we are already good at because that's what we enjoy. Practicing what you are not good at makes practice almost intolerable... or outright intolerable.

What's interesting is we've seen him in beast mode in the NBDL (not necessarily summer league and preseason though), which goes to proving the point that he can be pretty good in a more amateur league/situation.

 

[Phrazbit]

And the question comes if he's worth the time and effort... IMO they picked up his option to use in future trades, not to develop into a future NBA player. I think that will actually in the long run turn out to be a mistake. We'll have better options sooner.

Even if he totally flames out we're talking 2 million against a cap that will be up to nearly 90 mil next summer. I also think he will have value (not much) but as a throw in as a part of a larger trade he is decent piece, even with his warts. GMs suffer the same affliction as fans do when it comes to "jump high, run fast", guys of Archie's athletic ability get chance after chance.

My only concern about him actually damaging us is if he becomes a cancer, but I don't think his option has any bearing on that, he was locked in for this year anyway.

 

[BC867]

According to the coaching staff he's improved his ability to respond to direction. I'm pretty sure the numbers will back up that he's also improved from being a horrible outside shooter to being a below average shooter. He's gained a little strength and is now capable of occasionally finishing at the rim even if bodied up by a very slender person. And this summer I have personally seen him rotate to the proper player on more than one occasion.

And that is why our Suns have never been anything but a 50-and-fade team at best as they approach the end of their first half-century.

Good NBA players off the bench can help keep the starters fresh for the post-season.

 

[Catlover]

And that is why our Suns have never been anything but a 50-and-fade team at best as they approach the end of their first half-century.

Good NBA players off the bench can help keep the starters fresh for the post-season.

I would say that our first concern is likely to be making the playoffs. I don't know that we'll do it but it's clear Sarver wants/needs this team to make the playoffs. As for our bench, I think this is a very deep team. We have Bledsoe, Knight, Tucker, Morris, Chandler, Weems, Len, Warren, Teletovic, Leuer, Booker and Goodwin all expecting minutes. It will be interesting to see how Jeff handles it.

 

[Mainstreet]

I would say that our first concern is likely to be making the playoffs. I don't know that we'll do it but it's clear Sarver wants/needs this team to make the playoffs. As for our bench, I think this is a very deep team. We have Bledsoe, Knight, Tucker, Morris, Chandler, Weems, Len, Warren, Teletovic, Leuer, Booker and Goodwin all expecting minutes. It will be interesting to see how Jeff handles it.

I think you nailed it. At least on paper this is the deepest Suns team with talent I can remember. The second unit needs to win some games for the Suns in order for them to make the playoffs. Jeff not only needs to handle the player rotation but he needs to get them to play defense as well.

 

[Phrazbit]

I think you nailed it. At least on paper this is the deepest Suns team with talent I can remember. The second unit needs to win some games for the Suns in order for them to make the playoffs. Jeff not only needs to handle the player rotation but he needs to get them to play defense as well.

The mid 90s Suns were crazy deep, much deeper than this bunch. I'd say the 2010 team was considerably deeper too.

This team may end up proving to have depth but to say it does as of now, as a certainty is banking on Weems, Teletovic, Leuer, Warren, Booker and even Len... a bunch of guys who have yet to play rotation minutes on a decent team, some of whom have never been in a rotation period. Its not going out on a limb to guess that at least a couple of them will fall well short of that level of play this year.

IMO the current perception of depth is a byproduct an unsettled group of starters. If we had better quality at the forward starting positions I don't think dudes like Leuer and Teletovic would be viewed as depth rather than bench fodder. But I do think Warren is likely to settle some of those questions. I think he will end up getting a big chuck of the SF minutes.

 

[Catlover]

The mid 90s Suns were crazy deep, much deeper than this bunch. I'd say the 2010 team was considerably deeper too.

This team may end up proving to have depth but to say it does as of now, as a certainty is banking on Weems, Teletovic, Leuer, Warren, Booker and even Len... a bunch of guys who have yet to play rotation minutes on a decent team, some of whom have never been in a rotation period. Its not going out on a limb to guess that at least a couple of them will fall well short of that level of play this year.

IMO the current perception of depth is a byproduct an unsettled group of starters. If we had better quality at the forward starting positions I don't think dudes like Leuer and Teletovic would be viewed as depth rather than bench fodder. But I do think Warren is likely to settle some of those questions. I think he will end up getting a big chuck of the SF minutes.

More talented but I disagree that they were much deeper. This roster has at least 12 players that expect to be in the rotation, you really can't get much deeper than that. Leuer had a disappointing last season but prior to that he looked like he was ready to join the Memphis rotation. Teletovic has averaged 20 minutes a game the past 2 seasons and Weems didn't return to the NBA to watch the game.

 

[Phrazbit]

More talented but I disagree that they were much deeper. This roster has at least 12 players that expect to be in the rotation, you really can't get much deeper than that. Leuer had a disappointing last season but prior to that he looked like he was ready to join the Memphis rotation. Teletovic has averaged 20 minutes a game the past 2 seasons and Weems didn't return to the NBA to watch the game.

Well, again, I think the "depth" is more a result of the lack of guys who truly have earned playing time rather than a ton of good players who all should get chances.

Teletovic got waived, Leuer couldn't crack a not deep Memphis rotation and Weems was in Russia, I suspect the biggest reason he came back was because an NBA team offered him guaranteed money. Not saying these guys suck, but saying this team has true, quality depth is jumping the gun, big time.

 

[Catlover]

Well, again, I think the "depth" is more a result of the lack of guys who truly have earned playing time rather than a ton of good players who all should get chances.

Teletovic got waived, Leuer couldn't crack a not deep Memphis rotation and Weems was in Russia, I suspect the biggest reason he came back was because an NBA team offered him guaranteed money. Not saying these guys suck, but saying this team has true, quality depth is jumping the gun, big time.

Teletovic was waived because he wouldn't accept their low offer. The story I heard was his camp felt he was being lowballled because they weren't sure about how he'd return health-wise, not because he hadn't previously had value on the court. I don't really have any perspective on this but Weems was an all Euro-League player and I believe he was considered to be the best shooting guard in Europe. And IMO Leuer has shown he needs to be in the rotation.

We might find it laughable in a year or two that 12 or 13 players on this team thought they deserved regular minutes but right now I think that's uncontestable. I'm used to a roster that has 9 or 10 regular players and the rest are mostly cheerleaders.

 

[sunsfan88]

Isn't this just the start of Archie's 3rd season?

Coach was saying this morning on the radio that for most guys the 3rd year is when the game starts to slow down.
If Archie was a top 10 pick I could understand disappointment at his level of development but he is a #29 pick and one of the youngest in nba history.
He might never figure it out but to say he won't after only two seasons I don't understand.
If you can't play you don't score 30 points in a game ever.

The hate for Archie Goodwin is very bizarre. He's not the one getting techs, he's not the one that assaulted people with his twin brother, he's not the one getting DUIs, he's not the one demanding trades, and yet so much hate for a 3rd year kid who was a super late 1st rounder.

 

[Phrazbit]

The hate for Archie Goodwin is very bizarre. He's not the one getting techs, he's not the one that assaulted people with his twin brother, he's not the one getting DUIs, he's not the one demanding trades, and yet so much hate for a 3rd year kid who was a super late 1st rounder.

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...

...

Really?

Who here has said they "hate" him? You look at this thread and the things people are saying about Archie (fact based critiques based on his statistical results) and what people had to say about Morris this summer (essentially "screw that guy, I despise him"). To somehow say that Goodwin is getting ripped worse than Morris is not only off base, its down right idiotic.