Suns Plan to Start Negotiations With JJ

[arthurracoon]

There is one part of JJ's game everyone is forgetting.

What about JJ's defense. He plays THE BEST man defense of anyone on this team.

Furthermore, none of the other guards (not sure about Q) are great defenders.

It seems to me that we NEED JJ at least for his D.

 

[Joe Mama]

Didnt this offseason teach you anything? If Marion were left up to the open market he probably would have gotten full max instead of near max like he received.

I didn't say Shawn Marion would not get the maximum if he were a free agent this summer. I said that its weak to argue that he is worth that much money because he "is an all-star". That's because he has only been an all-star one time, and he was probably the last player to make the team that year. There is a huge difference between what these guys are worth and what they actually get. I think we can all agree that several of the free agents this summer were drastically overpaid.

I like Shawn Marion. I don't know whether he would have received maximum money if he was a free agent, but I doubt it. They were only two players who got maximum contracts this summer. Kobe Bryant was a no-brainer. The other one was Kenyon Martin. Denver reluctantly gave it to him to get him away from New Jersey who refused to match. The only team that was open to giving him a maximum contract from the get-go was Atlanta. I doubt even they would have given Shawn Marion the max.



Joe Mama

 

[Gaddabout]

1) The story says the Suns are *considering* negotiating with JJ this summer. This essentially means they would like to know how much JJ thinks he's worth right now. I don't believe it means they want to sign him to an extension before training camp (or even before the season begins).

2) They are already heavily invested in JJ, even if his $2mil+ salary doesn't show it. He was off the table for many key trade discussions this summer, not the least of which was one for Tracy McGrady. I don't know if this means the Suns are confident JJ's going to be a star, or if they're hedging their bets and BC/Sarver, unsure as everyone else about JJ's future, didn't want to be responsible for trading a young, accomodating star who might have been kept for a bargain price.

3) Trying to put a real number on that value before he shows how he fits in with this team will prove elusive. Is he the equivalent of Q? I think his agent would beg to differ. JJ is a better passer and a much better defender. When he's on, he's a better scorer than Q. If he' continues on his current improvement arc, he's going to make a much bigger impact than any player the Suns could've signed in the off-season. I think that puts him at least in Nash's salary neighborhood, and I'd be willing to bet his agent thinks so, too.

4) I think neither the Suns nor JJ's agent wants to come to an agreement until we see how minutes are distributed come November. JJ's a team player, but it's hard to prove you're value unless you get starting minutes to show it.

 

[scotsman13]

yea but joe marion is a much better player then marion.

 

[jbeecham]

yea but joe marion is a much better player then marion.

huh? Who's Joe Marion?

 

[elindholm]

yea but joe marion is a much better player then marion.

I think he means that Shawn Marion is a much better player than Kenyon Martin, but I disagree.

Is he the equivalent of Q? I think his agent would beg to differ. JJ is a better passer and a much better defender. When he's on, he's a better scorer than Q.

I think Maggette is a better comparison, not least because he's a more similar player to Johnson than Richardson is. It's almost impossible to make the case that Johnson is better than Maggette. Had he hit the market this summer, Maggette probably would have commanded a larger contract than the one he got, which started at $5.6 million last year. But even given the current "inflation," I don't think that it would be reasonable to give Johnson much more than Maggette got.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

After seeing what this offseason brought as far as salaries in the NBA it proved one thing...Many members on this board have NO idea how to judge a players worth and are totally oblivious on NBA salary realities.

A fair assumption would be for JJ to get at least what Q got plus a little more. Now isnt Q averaging 6-7 mill per year? So a JJ salary of 7 mill doesnt seem out of the question to me.

You apparently missed George's post. If JJ averages 7 million a year over the length of the contract, few people will argue.

For JJ to average 7 million, he would start in the high 5's (close to what Magette got).


If JJ starts at 7 million, for six years he would look like (assuming max 12.5% raises):

7,000,000
7,875,000
8,785,000
9,625,000
10,500,000
11,375,000


Total = 55,160,000
Average salary = 9,193,333


From what he has shown, don't you think that is a little high?


Compare to a contract starting at 5.8 million (same years and raises)

5,800,000
6,525,000
7,250,000
7,975,000
8,700,000
9,425,000

Total = $45,675,000
Average = $7,612,500


Note he gets more than Q since raises are higher


Personally, I would even be leary of the second option. However, at least it is in reason, where as the first one most definitely isn't at this point.


Edit: Anything in italics was edited. Thanks for pointing out the mistake.

 

[PhxGametime]

Joe Johnson had slightly better numbers than Corey Maggette (contract year) - IMO Joe Johnson should get $6-6.5... Suns do reward players and he might get more and deserve more but with possibly 2 First Round Picks next year (although there could be a trade) and I'd like to know who's a Free Agent center. His numbers might go down and IMO $6-6.5 is fair, I'd like to add to team next year - so keeping number down a little bit.

 

[slinslin]

A reasonable contract extension is necessary because if he keeps improving he will command much more in a year than he does now.

I don't want to get in a situation that a team like the Clips, Sonics, Hawks or whoever has capspace overpays for JJ to keep us from matching it.

 

[cly2tw]

JJ can only get an extension for 6 years.

Maggette were in a bad situation with Andre Miller, Odom, Brand all in contract year and he still ended up with his strong numbers. JJ was showing his potential mainly when he was the 1st option in Amare's absence. As someone pointed out, he'd be at best the fourth option this season. If he insisted on bigger contract, let him play out this season, we'd match any offer with no risk then.

It's in the best interest to both the team and JJ, that they agree on a contract to avoid the risk noone wants. A starting salary slightly above the MLE but lower than Q's, but with a lot of addon incentives, would be reasonalbe. Say, 5.3 mil starting in 05/06 with 12.5% annual raise, for 6 years with last two years team's option. If he wins any individual award like allstar selection, all-nba, or all-defensive selections, then he gets a raise of say 10% on the remaining contract and get the last two years secured. If gets another such selction next year, he gets another 10% raise and get a player option for the last year of the contract. (Tim Hardaway got a similar contract back then with the Heats.)

this way, both sides get enough security, but JJ won't feel too strongly "exploited" if he does become a star, realizing the maximum of his 'potential'.

 

[NJYAJ09]

you guys think vroman will make the team next year?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

JJ can only get an extension for 6 years.

Doh, when I looked at the ending numbers I knew something wasn't right. Gonna go fix them real quick.

 

[George O'Brien]

George, You come to more conclusions than anybody who posts here!!

Where did you read or hear that it is almost impossible to get equal value in trading Marion?
The suns are not trying to trade Marion that any of us are aware of.
Do you know of a trade that did not go because of Marions salary?

The only trade that we know of that included Marion was the discussed Tracy McGrady deal. Marion, Jacobsen, and the #1 pick was not acceptable to Orlando. I'm not sure the price of Marion was decisive. Orlando kept insisting on getting JJ and the Suns refused.

It is "MY" opinion that Marion is a little bit overpaid, actually there are numerous people of this board who are convinced he is extremely overpaid. I don't. But at the same time, I don't think other teams see him at his current contract as a great bargain either.

Several months ago someone on this board made up a list of players they would trade Marion for who makes less money. There were quite a few. At the same time, there are a bunch of players making more money than Marion that their team would trade in a heartbeat. It doesn't really matter unless someone makes an offer.

One way to think about getting "value" is to ask if the player could be traded for two good players with smaller contracts. Or are the only options a trade for a good player and a bad contract? IMHO, full value means not having to take a bad contract, or better yet forcing the other team to take a bad contract.

I think that Marion is a very valuable player and I'm opposed to trading him unless the Suns get full value.

 

[F-Dog]

A starting salary slightly above the MLE but lower than Q's, but with a lot of addon incentives, would be reasonalbe.

I don't see any way that Joe Johnson will take less money from the Suns than Q's making. What that means is that a JJ extension would have to start at (at least) $6.4m, which means it would be worth at least $48m, or $8m/year.

If the Suns aren't willing to pay that much for JJ's services, there's no point in talking to him before next summer.

 

[Joe Mama]

I don't see any way that Joe Johnson will take less money from the Suns than Q's making. What that means is that a JJ extension would have to start at (at least) $6.4m, which means it would be worth at least $48m, or $8m/year.

If the Suns aren't willing to pay that much for JJ's services, there's no point in talking to him before next summer.

I agree. I don't see JJ taking less than Richardson's contract. However I thought Richardson's contract started at around $5.8 million.

I'll bet it doesn't get done this summer. That is unless the Phoenix Suns make the mistake of overpaying.

Joe Mama

 

[pokerface]

I agree. I don't see JJ taking less than Richardson's contract. However I thought Richardson's contract started at around $5.8 million.

I'll bet it doesn't get done this summer. That is unless the Phoenix Suns make the mistake of overpaying.

Joe Mama

If overpaying lets us keep talent like Marion & JJ and keeps getting us more nice talent like Nash & Q then OVERPAY by all means. If we would have offered less money for Q and Nash chances are we wouldnt have them right now and we'd all be whining what a rotton offeason we had.

PAY! PAY! PAY!

 

[Joe Mama]

If overpaying lets us keep talent like Marion & JJ and keeps getting us more nice talent like Nash & Q then OVERPAY by all means. If we would have offered less money for Q and Nash chances are we wouldnt have them right now and we'd all be whining what a rotton offeason we had.

PAY! PAY! PAY!

Steve Nash and Quentin Richardson were different situations. With JJ and Shawn Marion the Suns are/were negotiating against themselves.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

Note he gets more than Q since raises are higher

Oops, I've been forgetting about that. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[F-Dog]

I agree. I don't see JJ taking less than Richardson's contract. However I thought Richardson's contract started at around $5.8 million.

It does. However, Joe Johnson's extension won't begin until next year--the second year of Q's contract.

I guess with the extra raises, we're looking at $50m as the floor for a JJ extension.

 

[elindholm]

Well apparently we're looking at three possibilities then:

1. The Suns will spend the next several years paying big bucks (significantly higher than the MLE) to Marion, Johnson, and Richardson, with one of them not even earning starter's minutes, OR

2. All three of them will earn starter's minutes, which means more small ball, OR

3. Marion will get traded.

Choose your poison.

 

[Phill11]

Well apparently we're looking at three possibilities then:

1. The Suns will spend the next several years paying big bucks (significantly higher than the MLE) to Marion, Johnson, and Richardson, with one of them not even earning starter's minutes, OR

2. All three of them will earn starter's minutes, which means more small ball, OR

3. Marion will get traded.

Choose your poison.

For #3 why don't we trade Johnson or Q? I'd rather see them go for a center if we had to trade. Marion's just too valuable.

 

[coloradosun]

The only trade that we know of that included Marion was the discussed Tracy McGrady deal. Marion, Jacobsen, and the #1 pick was not acceptable to Orlando. I'm not sure the price of Marion was decisive. Orlando kept insisting on getting JJ and the Suns refused.

Just to set the record straight we don't know if the offer was unacceptable to Orlando, what we do know is that the Suns refused going forward with deal because McGrady would not commit to giving up his player option in the 2005-6 season. That was one reason the deal did not go forward media reports said they wanted JJ instead of Marion.

 

[elindholm]

For #3 why don't we trade Johnson or Q?

By the time the Suns are done overpaying Johnson, he will be untradeable. As for Richardson, I agree that the Suns could trade him within a year or two after landing him as a RFA, but that would be sort of strange.

 

[Gaddabout]

Well apparently we're looking at three possibilities then:

1. The Suns will spend the next several years paying big bucks (significantly higher than the MLE) to Marion, Johnson, and Richardson, with one of them not even earning starter's minutes, OR

2. All three of them will earn starter's minutes, which means more small ball, OR

3. Marion will get traded.

Choose your poison.

I think a trade is highly likely, but not before mid-season and not neccesarily involving Marion.

 

[Phill11]

For #3 why don't we trade Johnson or Q?

By the time the Suns are done overpaying Johnson, he will be untradeable. As for Richardson, I agree that the Suns could trade him within a year or two after landing him as a RFA, but that would be sort of strange.

Q? If we can get a Center, I say we trade this 6th man.