Suns @ Raptors 1-17-18

[sdscard4]

I thought it was fairly well called until 8 minutes or so left in the game (we were up 3 IIRC). Then they started ignoring OBVIOUS fouls which led to multiple technicals on our part. So instead of momentum and a growing lead, we were down 5 before you know it and played catch up the rest of the way.

They were up 2 with the ball with 2 mins left and we got PG Book. And guess who doesn't attempt a shot going forward....PG Book

 

[SactownSunsFan]

The common denominator is no point guard although I liked what Booker was doing tonight.

And no real PF. TJ is a natural 3, as are JJ and Oubre. Holmes is the closest we have to a natural 4, but he's stuck playing backup center as the only other quality big on this team. What a waste of a pick Bender has turned out to be.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's unfair to put all of this on Warren. He played some decent defense with 2 blocks and 2 steals. He was the victim of a number of no calls. He needs to be given credit for trying to take the ball inside.

I don't mind him taking the ball inside, it was that drive down low near the end of the game where there were already 3 defenders that irritated me. It was the absolute worst time of the game for that stupid of a play. He rarely gets any credit from the refs so any sane player in that spot should have recognized the turnover in the making and passed it up top to reset the play. And yes, he played good D a few times, usually after making a nice basket.

 

[Mainstreet]

And no real PF. TJ is a natural 3, as are JJ and Oubre. Holmes is the closest we have to a natural 4, but he's stuck playing backup center as the only other quality big on this team. What a waste of a pick Bender has turned out to be.

So true. Let's not forget Chriss either. Siakam was chosen 27th in that draft.

If the Suns had scouts... they should get better at drafting.

 

[AzStevenCal]

They were up 2 with the ball with 2 mins left and we got PG Book. And guess who doesn't attempt a shot going forward....PG Book

Yeah, you can't just switch back on forth on the label like that. Shooting guards pass the ball and point guards shoot and drive to the hoop also.

Booker is out of shape, he's admitted it a few times. Many of his injuries this season have forced him to sit idle until cleared and even once you get into shape, there's game shape to worry about. So I have no problem with him letting the game come to him at the end there. But read this board more and you'll see that most of the posters that are down on Booker blame him for dominating the game down the stretch.

 

[HeHasRosen]

If this team had real NBA scouts and not drafted so poorly the last few years with all these high draft picks, we would be competitive by now.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't mind him taking the ball inside, it was that drive down low near the end of the game where there were already 3 defenders that irritated me. It was the absolute worst time of the game for that stupid of a play. He rarely gets any credit from the refs so any sane player in that spot should have recognized the turnover in the making and passed it up top to reset the play. And yes, he played good D a few times, usually after making a nice basket.

I agree with you on that particular play but he made some good plays as well. I'm not sure why he always gets singled out. He played more minutes tonight (41) than any other Sun.

 

[HeHasRosen]

So true. Let's not forget Chriss either. Siakam was chosen 27th in that draft.

If the Suns had scouts... they should get better at drafting.

You beat me to it. But yes

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

So true. Let's not forget Chriss either. Siakam was chosen 27th in that draft.

If the Suns had scouts... they should get better at drafting.

That means that 20+ teams need to get better scouting then. Siakam is better than at least 20 of the other players drafted in front of him. Pointing out a player that 26 teams passed on to try and prove your point is kind of weak. Now if you want to point to say Jamal Murray as a player we should have drafted than I can agree with that.

 

[Mainstreet]

That means that 20+ teams need to get better scouting then. Siakam is better than at least 20 of the other players drafted in front of him. Pointing out a player that 26 teams passed on to try and prove your point is kind of weak. Now if you want to point to say Jamal Murray as a player we should have drafted than I can agree with that.

I'm pointing out good players can be found and not just with the early picks. The Suns used to be really good at drafting players later in the draft under Jerry Colangelo.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If this team had real NBA scouts and not drafted so poorly the last few years with all these high draft picks, we would be competitive by now.

We'd still be very young. Look at the Lakers picks, are they dominating without Lebron despite the fact free agents seem to flock there? They've had three 2's and a 7, that compares favorably with the 1, the two 4's and the 5 we've had. We also traded for the rights to Chriss at 8 which is both a bad pick and a bad trade, I'm not sure what category it belongs in.

But most importantly, there's the often stated fact that our guys are adolescents in the NBA world, we don't know what we've drafted just yet. Yes, we know we struck out on Len, Bender and Chriss but part of that was bad luck. For example, in 2016 we fell to 4th in what was looked at as a 3 player draft and our 5th pick came in one of the worst draft classes ever.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I agree with you on that particular play but he made some good plays as well. I'm not sure why he always gets singled out. He played more minutes tonight (41) than any other Sun.

He doesn't always get singled out, Booker draws a LOT more heat here than TJ does. It's only been recently this year that his shortcomings have generated a lot of conversation. For me, I turned on him after about the 30th time I watched his body language go south. I think he does good things and when things are going well for him, he's very valuable.

But I just don't think you can win consistently depending on a player that is as weak willed as him. He stops competing occasionally and that shouldn't happen and that goes back to his rookie season. If he'd been un-drafted and giving us this kind of play, he'd be a good 2nd or 3rd man off the bench which IMO is where he belongs. I'd have him there because he can't consistently create his own shot against an aware defense, something I believe your 6th man really needs to be able to do.

 

[Mainstreet]

If this team had real NBA scouts and not drafted so poorly the last few years with all these high draft picks, we would be competitive by now.

I think the Suns used the group think method of drafting.

That's the problem of drafting early. The Suns do not want to pass on the highest rated players. They often do better drafting later hopefully with the 2018 draft being an exception.

 

[Mainstreet]

He doesn't always get singled out, Booker draws a LOT more heat here than TJ does. It's only been recently this year that his shortcomings have generated a lot of conversation. For me, I turned on him after about the 30th time I watched his body language go south. I think he does good things and when things are going well for him, he's very valuable.

But I just don't think you can win consistently depending on a player that is as weak willed as him. He stops competing occasionally and that shouldn't happen and that goes back to his rookie season. If he'd been un-drafted and giving us this kind of play, he'd be a good 2nd or 3rd man off the bench which IMO is where he belongs. I'd have him there because he can't consistently create his own shot against an aware defense, something I believe your 6th man really needs to be able to do.

Perhaps if the Suns had a more balance offense the defense wouldn't be able concentrate on Warren as much.

If the Suns had passing lanes he would be much more effective.

I don't see Warren as weak willed at all.

 

[SirStefan32]

Well that was a good game! they couldn't overcome the refs being blatantly on the Raptors' side. JJ needs to sit a game for what he did though. That flagrant foul was downright dirty, and he got a tech and ejection on top of it. It was nice to see Booker have a good game. Ayton was good as well. Especially pleased that Bridges looked more aggressive on offense.

 

[BC867]

Please remember that other teams’ scouts are seeing the same TJ you are seeing.

All it takes is one team that is strong defensively and needs an 18-20 ppg scorer (who can now hit 3's).

Isn't that the formula for the best trades? Two teams fill their needs.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I just don't get how there's a game where Ayton only gets 8 shots (while making 6) while Warren and ombre combine to shoot 8-31.

 

[BC867]

I just don't get how there's a game where Ayton only gets 8 shots (while making 6) while Warren and ombre combine to shoot 8-31.

There are a lot of knowledgeable basketball fans on this board. Can anyone explain why anyone in charge of the team would not allow Ayton to be active on offense throughout the game?

The only thing I can think of is that the coaching staff does not include a skilled big man coach, probably to save a few bucks of Sarver's profits.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

From what I recall I think Ayton was 6-8 at half, or close thereto, no? I mean I know we don’t want him shouldering all of the scoring responsibility, but come on already!

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

There are a lot of knowledgeable basketball fans on this board. Can anyone explain why anyone in charge of the team would not allow Ayton to be active on offense throughout the game?

The only thing I can think of is that the coaching staff does not include a skilled big man coach, probably to save a few bucks of Sarver's profits.

Did you review to see how he got those shots? Did he or the team do anything different in the second half? Ayton still sets picks (had a few pretty good ones) and then lounges at the top of the key. In the first half Ibaka left him out there and he hit a couple of nice jumpers. In the second half Ibaka stayed with him and Ayton stayed there too. He rolled twice I think. Once on the poor Booker lob and once with a bullet pass from Okobo that missed. Holmes rolls all the time. Unfortunately he is not nearly as big or gifted offensively.

It is not just on the coaches, or the team, or Ayton. It takes everyone. But until Ayton realizes that he has to get to where he wants to be and "demand" the ball, the other two don't really matter much and it is hard to gauge the intent of the offense.

 

[Mainstreet]

Did you review to see how he got those shots? Did he or the team do anything different in the second half? Ayton still sets picks (had a few pretty good ones) and then lounges at the top of the key. In the first half Ibaka left him out there and he hit a couple of nice jumpers. In the second half Ibaka stayed with him and Ayton stayed there too. He rolled twice I think. Once on the poor Booker lob and once with a bullet pass from Okobo that missed. Holmes rolls all the time. Unfortunately he is not nearly as big or gifted offensively.

It is not just on the coaches, or the team, or Ayton. It takes everyone. But until Ayton realizes that he has to get to where he wants to be and "demand" the ball, the other two don't really matter much and it is hard to gauge the intent of the offense.

As you point out Ayton is going to get a lot of his points rolling to the basket. He is not strong enough to demand the ball down low and finish against players like Ibaka.

 

[slinslin]

Igor is losing this team

His stoic emotionless approach seems to have lost the trust of the players already so they have decided ennough is enough with the refs and ltake matters in their hand.

 

[slinslin]

Did you review to see how he got those shots? Did he or the team do anything different in the second half? Ayton still sets picks (had a few pretty good ones) and then lounges at the top of the key. In the first half Ibaka left him out there and he hit a couple of nice jumpers. In the second half Ibaka stayed with him and Ayton stayed there too. He rolled twice I think. Once on the poor Booker lob and once with a bullet pass from Okobo that missed. Holmes rolls all the time. Unfortunately he is not nearly as big or gifted offensively.

It is not just on the coaches, or the team, or Ayton. It takes everyone. But until Ayton realizes that he has to get to where he wants to be and "demand" the ball, the other two don't really matter much and it is hard to gauge the intent of the offense.

We have no interior passing, only Jackson shows some potential in that regard.

Even Booker is terrible at making plays when he gets inside he often gets stuck.

I would like to see what Ayton would be doing with a PG who can navigate the paint.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns are clearly frustrated with the officiating and it overflowed last night.

Here are some comments by Jackson and Booker respectively:


“I felt like there were plenty of plays we should’ve been shooting free throws on and for some reason, we’re playing defense, and we’re going down there shooting free throws,” Jackson said. “A lot of frustration, a lot of calls that should’ve been called that weren’t, but I felt like it was my job to step up and say something for my teammates.”

“That’s BS,” Jackson said. “That should never be that way. I watch all-star guys get the benefit of the doubt every night. Questionable calls, they still get them, but teams like us, we just don’t for some reason. I don’t know what it is.”

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“I think emotions were high at the time,” Suns guard Devin Booker said. “I think we’re looking for respect that we have to earn still. We realize that. We’re at the bottom of the West. They’re at the top of the East. We can come in and complain about calls every game, but nobody respects us and we should know that by now. Everybody knows that. If you’re not one of those top teams, you’re going to have to work for it.”


https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...ting-boils-over-suns-loss-toronto/2612060002/

 

[Mainstreet]

We have no interior passing, only Jackson shows some potential in that regard.

Even Booker is terrible at making plays when he gets inside he often gets stuck.

I would like to see what Ayton would be doing with a PG who can navigate the paint.

I'd like to see what all the Suns players could do with a point guard.

The Raptors were so good with their interior passing and not just with a point guard.