Suns @ Raptors 1-17-18

[SirStefan32]

The Suns are clearly frustrated with the officiating and it overflowed last night.

Here are some comments by Jackson and Booker respectively:


“I felt like there were plenty of plays we should’ve been shooting free throws on and for some reason, we’re playing defense, and we’re going down there shooting free throws,” Jackson said. “A lot of frustration, a lot of calls that should’ve been called that weren’t, but I felt like it was my job to step up and say something for my teammates.”

“That’s BS,” Jackson said. “That should never be that way. I watch all-star guys get the benefit of the doubt every night. Questionable calls, they still get them, but teams like us, we just don’t for some reason. I don’t know what it is.”

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“I think emotions were high at the time,” Suns guard Devin Booker said. “I think we’re looking for respect that we have to earn still. We realize that. We’re at the bottom of the West. They’re at the top of the East. We can come in and complain about calls every game, but nobody respects us and we should know that by now. Everybody knows that. If you’re not one of those top teams, you’re going to have to work for it.”


https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...ting-boils-over-suns-loss-toronto/2612060002/

Booker gets it. JJ doesn't. Keep attacking, keep being aggressive. Develop a solid reputation and you will get the calls. You can complain all you want, but if you are a soft player on a soft team, or if you are a rookie head coach, complaining isn't gonna do you any good. I am OK with someone picking up a tech once in a while, but it's the reputation that needs to be developed. That takes time.

When Jackson committed that stupid, dirty flagrant foul and got himself tossed with the second technical, Suns were down by one, if I remember correctly. Maybe it was three because the ball went in. They hit two free throws and scored on the following possession.
Officiating got worse, momentum shifted against the Suns. Shut your big mouth and play basketball, JJ. EDIT, oh, and don't try to hurt people intentionally.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Igor is losing this team

His stoic emotionless approach seems to have lost the trust of the players already so they have decided ennough is enough with the refs and ltake matters in their hand.

A team that routinely battled back from big deficits doesn’t seem lost at all.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

We have no interior passing, only Jackson shows some potential in that regard.

Even Booker is terrible at making plays when he gets inside he often gets stuck.

I would like to see what Ayton would be doing with a PG who can navigate the paint.

Would be an enormous game changer. So would a combo of someone who can feed the post and Ayton learning how to effectively seal his man to receive a pass in the post.

 

[Mainstreet]

Booker gets it. JJ doesn't. Keep attacking, keep being aggressive. Develop a solid reputation and you will get the calls. You can complain all you want, but if you are a soft player on a soft team, or if you are a rookie head coach, complaining isn't gonna do you any good. I am OK with someone picking up a tech once in a while, but it's the reputation that needs to be developed. That takes time.

When Jackson committed that stupid, dirty flagrant foul and got himself tossed with the second technical, Suns were down by one, if I remember correctly. Maybe it was three because the ball went in. They hit two free throws and scored on the following possession.
Officiating got worse, momentum shifted against the Suns. Shut your big mouth and play basketball, JJ. EDIT, oh, and don't try to hurt people intentionally.

The flagrant committed by Jackson was totally unacceptable. His response was off the wall.

Initially I thought the technical was on Oubre because he was the one getting roughed up.

I posted the comments by the players to show their frame of mind. The referees were not calling fouls on both ends of the court especially in the last four or five minutes. I can understand the frustration part of it.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

A team that routinely battled back from big deficits doesn’t seem lost at all.

Not to mention that Igor complaining to the refs only further excuses our young players to complain themselves. This is a team that has a ton of youth and they need to learn to channel their frustration properly and the coach doing exactly what he doesn't want his players to be doing just undermines what he is teaching the players. If Igor or any of the players don't agree with a call than be as understanding and unconfrontational as you can when talking to the refs. They are much more likely to respond to that approach than a rookie head coach and a bunch of young players bitching and moaning.

 

[SirStefan32]

Not to mention that Igor complaining to the refs only further excuses our young players to complain themselves. This is a team that has a ton of youth and they need to learn to channel their frustration properly and the coach doing exactly what he doesn't want his players to be doing just undermines what he is teaching the players. If Igor or any of the players don't agree with a call than be as understanding and unconfrontational as you can when talking to the refs. They are much more likely to respond to that approach than a rookie head coach and a bunch of young players bitching and moaning.

And someone (either Igor or Jones) said in an interview that they communicate with the league about the officiating on regular basis.
This is a societal problem, I think. A lot of people, especially men, tend to think that pounding your chest and screaming like a crazy person is productive. Reality is that it just makes you look like a fool and nobody takes you seriously. Thankfully, Igor and Jones understand that.

 

[1Sun]

A team that routinely battled back from big deficits doesn’t seem lost at all.

The problem is that this begs the question of why this team is constantly finding itself in big deficits, even against an opponent resting half of its roster.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The problem is that this begs the question of why this team is constantly finding itself in big deficits, even against an opponent resting half of its roster.

Hyperbolize much? And how many neutral NBA fans would expect a lineup of Kyle Lowry, Pascal Siakam, Serge Ibaka, Fred VanVleet, Danny Green, Delon Wright, Norman Powell and CJ Miles to lose to the Phoenix Suns?

 

[1Sun]

Hyperbolize much? And how many neutral NBA fans would expect a lineup of Kyle Lowry, Pascal Siakam, Serge Ibaka, Fred VanVleet, Danny Green, Delon Wright, Norman Powell and CJ Miles to lose to the Phoenix Suns?

Considering that only Lowry, VanVleet, Wright and maybe Ibaka have a talent advantage...

 

[taz02]

Out of curiosity, what is the consensus how many wins an average PG will bring, say a guy like Rubio?

I believe its going to help, but how much difference will a guy like Rubio really make over Melton?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Out of curiosity, what is the consensus how many wins an average PG will bring, say a guy like Rubio?

I believe its going to help, but how much difference will a guy like Rubio really make over Melton?

The impact would be immense. It is hard to judge. This team is playing close right now.

 

[1Sun]

The impact would be immense. It is hard to judge. This team is playing close right now.

Close to what? A historic worst?

 

[devilalum]

I just don't get how there's a game where Ayton only gets 8 shots (while making 6) while Warren and ombre combine to shoot 8-31.

Yes!!!

They go to him, he looks unstoppable then they just don’t go to him anymore??? Ombré is a French hair style.


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[AzStevenCal]

Considering that only Lowry, VanVleet, Wright and maybe Ibaka have a talent advantage...

They have 3 different players that would win the starting PG spot for Phoenix and 2 different players that would take over the PF duties. Which also means that in addition to being better than us at the starting 1 and 4 it also means they have a bench advantage at those 2 spots. We'd have the advantage at the 2 spot if our 2 wasn't forced to play the 1. I don't think it's a clear cut win either way but even with Leonard, JNC and Anunoby out, they are at least our equal in overall talent. I figure the back to back mostly cancels out their home court advantage which leaves the game as a tossup IMO and it played out that way.

 

[taz02]

The impact would be immense. It is hard to judge. This team is playing close right now.

We are a game and a half out of last place in the entire league and nine games out in the western conference. We've won 2 games out of the last 11.

I agree some of the games have felt close but opposing teams are playing uninspired against us and we've been losing for so long a loss within 10 points feels like a win.

Even if an average PG doubled our wins we'd be 11th place in the western conference. Are there any examples of an average player having that kind of an impact on a team?

Also, If an average player will make that much of a difference then why do we have a system in place that is so reliant on what we don't have. Seems out of wack to me.

 

[Cheesebeef]

We are a game and a half out of last place in the entire league and nine games out in the western conference. We've won 2 games out of the last 11.

I agree some of the games have felt close but opposing teams are playing uninspired against us and we've been losing for so long a loss within 10 points feels like a win.

Even if an average PG doubled our wins we'd be 11th place in the western conference. Are there any examples of an average player having that kind of an impact on a team?

Also, If an average player will make that much of a difference then why do we have a system in place that is so reliant on what we don't have. Seems out of wack to me.

these are all good questions.

 

[1tinsoldier]

to say we're playing "close" today is to say we're playing within 30 points the game before
but i do agree that our defensive unit is making us more competitive

regarding Ayton -- he has the highest 4th quarter shooting percentage in the league, partly because, as we saw last night, he doesn't get many touches in the 4th, especially in close games considering because no one has confidence in their ability to get him the ball.

still. Holmes and Ayton are the Suns highest percentage scorers with the highest efficiency ratings and they are not being utilized properly to close out fourth quarters

 

[Mainstreet]

We are a game and a half out of last place in the entire league and nine games out in the western conference. We've won 2 games out of the last 11.

I agree some of the games have felt close but opposing teams are playing uninspired against us and we've been losing for so long a loss within 10 points feels like a win.

Even if an average PG doubled our wins we'd be 11th place in the western conference. Are there any examples of an average player having that kind of an impact on a team?

Also, If an average player will make that much of a difference then why do we have a system in place that is so reliant on what we don't have. Seems out of wack to me.

This is what the Suns should figure out before next season. It not only applies to the players but the coaching as well. I think even an average point guard might give a hint as to what the Suns might look like going forward.

Questions need to be answered about the coaching as much as the players.

 

[BC867]

A team that routinely battled back from big deficits doesn’t seem lost at all.

Trying to come from behind game after game takes its toll. It puts pressure on an especially young team like the Suns. There is no justifying it.

It is not a recipe for victories or developing a winning team. Or reducing the Suns history of turnover of executives and players.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Trying to come from behind game after game takes its toll. It puts pressure on an especially young team like the Suns. There is no justifying it.

It is not a recipe for victories or developing a winning team. Or reducing the Suns history of turnover of executives and players.

None of that is what I was addressing. Where did i justify ANYTHING? A young team that’s been lost by a coach doesn’t mount comebacks, even failed ones. It goes rogue and gets blown out. It gets worse through the season. None of that is happening. None of this is to say Igor is a good coach. I really have no idea if he is or isn’t. I am merely pointing to a fact that suggests that Igor has not lost the team as the poster to whom I was replying had claimed.

 

[1Sun]

None of that is what I was addressing. Where did i justify ANYTHING? A young team that’s been lost by a coach doesn’t mount comebacks, even failed ones. It goes rogue and gets blown out. It gets worse through the season. None of that is happening. None of this is to say Igor is a good coach. I really have no idea if he is or isn’t. I am merely pointing to a fact that suggests that Igor has not lost the team as the poster to whom I was replying had claimed.

The team is fighting back in games, but it is still getting worse overall as the season progresses. I don't think Igor has lost the team. I think he never had the team in the first place. The result is a disjointed team with players who put forth effort only when personally motivated to do so and who seldomly put forth effort together when it matters.

 

[1tinsoldier]

Kokoskov has been criticized by fans for not getting on the referees more during games. He’s said that can be more of a show and it’s not his nature to lash out at the refs...“We’ve got to maintain our composure,” Kokoskov said. “We have to stay calm. I always tell the guys I don’t talk much to the referees, but let me handle that."

i anticipated this happening last week. if the coach doesn't get on the refs about the calls the players will
he tells the players he'll handle handle the refs, but doesn't
yes, it's a show. but it's built into the game. to some extent, the squeaky wheels get the oil
if you're the coach, you've got to put on a show once in a while

 

[taz02]

I'm starting to feel as if the PG issue is becoming a convenient excuse. Ayton will be better with a PG, Booker will be better with a PG we need a PG to evaluate the coach.......

Certainly a PG like Nash or Lillard would dramatically improve the team but that could be said about a proven star at any position. I think landing a PG of that caliber is highly unlikely and the difference between Melton and any average PG we bring in is not going to impact our win % enough, (we need to double our win% to suck).

Last time I checked our opponents only averaged one less assist than us per game but we were losing on the boards and at the FT line by five each, (if I remember correctly).

Why not keep Ayton inside, he can score from offensive rebounds which would help our rebounding deficit, minimise our need for a PG and possibly result in more FT's.

I think we are looking for an excuse for the deficiencies in Igors system because of course firing him would be a really bad look and replacement options are slim. My hope is that he changes his system to fit the players we do have instead of the players we don't have.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm starting to feel as if the PG issue is becoming a convenient excuse. Ayton will be better with a PG, Booker will be better with a PG we need a PG to evaluate the coach.......

I think obtaining a starting point guard might be a more reasonable way to help evaluate Igor's coaching and better evaluate players. At least provide him a basic tool the Suns are lacking. I don't think it's totally fair to evaluate him otherwise.

Adding a starting point guard, even a temporary fix like Payton last season, might give a better feel how every thing works. Igor even said a point guard is essential (important) to run the team on offense an even on defense.

It would serve as litmus test of sorts.

I do not want the Suns to give up major assets for a point guard before the trade deadline unless they find a PGOTF.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

I'm starting to feel as if the PG issue is becoming a convenient excuse. Ayton will be better with a PG, Booker will be better with a PG we need a PG to evaluate the coach.......

..

Why not keep Ayton inside, he can score from offensive rebounds which would help our rebounding deficit, minimise our need for a PG and possibly result in more FT's.

I think we are looking for an excuse for the deficiencies in Igors system because of course firing him would be a really bad look and replacement options are slim. My hope is that he changes his system to fit the players we do have instead of the players we don't have.

I am still flabbergasted that posters think the issue is that "they are not playing him inside". No, he himself is not playing himself inside. Himself. He. You have no proof that "they are not playing him inside", or in other words telling him to play far from the rim. Every center in today's NBA sets screens at the top of the key. I would challenge you to find one that doesn't. So that in itself doesn't mean they are forcing him to play far from the rim. I have the proof that Holmes does just fine playing around the hoop. Is he coached separately? I have proof that the players are often referring to his need to get to the hoop. He himself has acknowledged that he needs to get to the basket. He gets down there from time to time. In limited times it has worked well. Most times he is pushed out until he receives the ball 10+ feet from the hoop. Or the passes are intercepted because his technique in pass reception is lacking (not that the passes are always great). His close scores generally come from rebounds and putbacks or alley oops when they work.
I am not even defending Igor directly - it would be any coach. You can't force Ayton to do what obviously doesn't come naturally to him. He will have to learn it, get stronger, and force himself to do it.