Suns @ Rockets Feb 5th 2014

[sunsfan88]

Charles Barkley ‏@ChuckOnTNT You don't live by jumpers, you die by jumpers.

https://twitter.com/ChuckOnTNT/status/321452150595145728

 

[sunsfan88]

If we gave up 122 to Houston, anyone have any predictions on how many points we give up to Golden State next?

You get a prize if your guess is within 5 pts.

 

[Superbone]

Rockets shooting 7/10 from 3 in the first half holy crap!

That's what did us in. They hit a three every time they needed one.

 

[Superbone]

Harden doing his best Ginobli!


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I love how Harden can just run into the back of Frye and it's a foul on Frye.

 

[Superbone]

If we gave up 122 to Houston, anyone have any predictions on how many points we give up to Golden State next?

You get a prize if your guess is within 5 pts.

128

 

[82CardsGrad]

That's what did us in. They hit a three every time they needed one.

No... that's not what did us in. What "did us in" was nothing new... We have zero ability to win if our shooting, particularly our 3 point shooting, sucks. We have no inside/power game whatsoever. And we have little ability to stop an inside/power game - though, I am very hopeful that Len will develop into that guy.
Last night, we tossed up 30 three-pointers and made a whopping 8, 26%!
That's a lot of empty trips and when the opponent is shooting well, and when the opponent is sent to the line 42 time and makes 33 of their free throw attempts... well, it's spells a big fat LOSS...

We desperately need a credible inside game... again, I am very hopeful that Len can become part of that mix. BUT, Frye is a gigantic problem for this team. He played 23 minutes last night and had ZERO boards!! He is 6'11" for crying our loud!! He then throws up 17 shots, 6 from beyond the arc, and makes 4 (1 for 6 from 3 point land)!!!

I have no doubt that he will be dealt with next season...or, I REALLY REALLY hope so!!!

 

[sunsfan88]

No... that's not what did us in. What "did us in" was nothing new... We have zero ability to win if our shooting, particularly our 3 point shooting, sucks. We have no inside/power game whatsoever. And we have little ability to stop an inside/power game - though, I am very hopeful that Len will develop into that guy.
Last night, we tossed up 30 three-pointers and made a whopping 8, 26%!
That's a lot of empty trips and when the opponent is shooting well, and when the opponent is sent to the line 42 time and makes 33 of their free throw attempts... well, it's spells a big fat LOSS...

We desperately need a credible inside game... again, I am very hopeful that Len can become part of that mix. BUT, Frye is a gigantic problem for this team. He played 23 minutes last night and had ZERO boards!! He is 6'11" for crying our loud!! He then throws up 17 shots, 6 from beyond the arc, and makes 4 (1 for 6 from 3 point land)!!!

I have no doubt that he will be dealt with next season...or, I REALLY REALLY hope so!!!

Your just hating on Frye. Everyone knows that Frye chucking 3s is the only reason we are good. If you replace him with anyone else we would be a bad team. Doesn't matter if it's a Duncan or LMA, Frye is what makes the Suns go.

His elite 3pt shooting, rebounding and defense can't be found elsewhere.

 

[Mainstreet]

Your just hating on Frye. Everyone knows that Frye chucking 3s is the only reason we are good. If you replace him with anyone else we would be a bad team. Doesn't matter if it's a Duncan or LMA, Frye is what makes the Suns go.

His elite 3pt shooting, rebounding and defense can't be found elsewhere.

Let me present it try it this way. Channing Frye is not the prototypical PF I would like for the Suns but he is signed to a guaranteed contract and he will likely pick up his player option next season. I do not think the Suns would be as good a team "this" season without him. He serves a role and shooting 3's is one of those roles. Until the Suns develop, trade or draft another PF, the Suns will likely have to live with it.

 

[sunsfan88]

Let me present it try it this way. Channing Frye is not the prototypical PF I would like for the Suns but he is signed to a guaranteed contract and he will likely pick up his player option next season. I do not think the Suns would be as good a team "this" season without him. He serves a role and shooting 3's is one of those roles. Until the Suns develop, trade or draft another PF, the Suns will likely have to live with it.

Thing is, you (and many others) believe that we need a 3pt shooting PF for our us to be effective in our system. You think that Hornacek and McD likes having to rely on 3pt shooting every single game no matter how bad the opponent is or how good the opponent is.

It's not true. We only shoot so many 3s because we only have the personnel for that. Hornacek is trying to make the best out of the players he's gotten. Its not the opposite where, "every player has to be a shooter to be effective in the Suns".

If we had a better PF regardless of whether he's a shooter or not, we would be more effective cause Hornacek would find a way to make it work and it would make it easier for the rest of the team.

 

[Catlover]

Your just hating on Frye. Everyone knows that Frye chucking 3s is the only reason we are good. If you replace him with anyone else we would be a bad team. Doesn't matter if it's a Duncan or LMA, Frye is what makes the Suns go.

His elite 3pt shooting, rebounding and defense can't be found elsewhere.

Our talent level is subpar. Frye IS a big part of why we are playing above our talent level. Replace him with an LMA or a Duncan in his prime and we're all happy. Replace him with a middle of the road power forward though and our weaknesses at shooting guard and small forward become more obvious. Find me another winning team with two castoffs such as Green and Turner in the starting lineup.

Look at last night for example. The Frye haters are screaming and yelling about him and ignoring the fact that he simply had a bad game. He couldn't buy a shot and he wasn't all that hot defensively either. He played poorly and his off-night was reflected in our being outscored by 22 points when he was on the court. Ask yourself this: Why does the +/- reflect his performance accurately on his off nights but it's all of a sudden irrelevant on his good nights? He is at or near the top of our team regularly in +/- because the threat of him making threes makes us a better team well beyond his own efficiency.

I don't know if you put any stock in Hollinger's player efficiency ratings but if you take a look at them it's hard to see why we're winning at all. Goran is the 15th highest rated player but with Bledsoe out we don't have another starter in the top 130 (Fyre is 131st). Plumlee, Green and Tucker come in at 136, 145 and 198 respectively. How does a team win with that many starters rated so low? Well, Dragic and the Morris twins have a lot to do with it but Jeff's style of offense (highlighted by Frye's outside shooting) is also a big part of it.

 

[Mainstreet]

Thing is, you (and many others) believe that we need a 3pt shooting PF for our us to be effective in our system. You think that Hornacek and McD likes having to rely on 3pt shooting every single game no matter how bad the opponent is or how good the opponent is.

It's not true. We only shoot so many 3s because we only have the personnel for that. Hornacek is trying to make the best out of the players he's gotten. Its not the opposite where, "every player has to be a shooter to be effective in the Suns".

If we had a better PF regardless of whether he's a shooter or not, we would be more effective cause Hornacek would find a way to make it work and it would make it easier for the rest of the team.

This is not what I believe at all. Frye is under a guaranteed contract and it would be silly not to take advantage of his skills. I believe he should be coming off the bench in the future when the Suns have a PF that has an inside game. As it is right now, I think Markieff should be a backup PF as well. He seemingly can't stay out of foul trouble and does not like to play under the basket either.

 

[sunsfan88]

Replace him with a middle of the road power forward though and our weaknesses at shooting guard and small forward become more obvious. .

We don't have much of a weakness at SG. When Bledsoe is healthy, we actually have a stregnth in our backcourt and when Green is playing, he's average but that's not a weakness compared to the forward positions.

Find me another winning team with two castoffs such as Green and Turner in the starting lineup.

.

Find me another winning team with a castoff from NY & Portland such as Frye in the starting lineup.

Look at last night for example. The Frye haters are screaming and yelling about him and ignoring the fact that he simply had a bad game. He couldn't buy a shot and he wasn't all that hot defensively either. He played poorly and his off-night was reflected in our being outscored by 22 points when he was on the court. Ask yourself this: Why does the +/- reflect his performance accurately on his off nights but it's all of a sudden irrelevant on his good nights? He is at or near the top of our team regularly in +/- because the threat of him making threes makes us a better team well beyond his own efficiency.

Lol yea because he only has bad games rarely right? In his past 5 games he's shooting 26% from 3 and 39% from the field. And averaging just 4 rebounds a game while playing 30 mins a game in those 5 games.

And if you think you can make a case out of +/- stats, sorry I'm not buying it. Slinslin has tried to use +/- to make some of the scrubs in this league look and he's been discredited and I'll tell you the same thing...you can't use +/- to determine if a player is good or not.

And isn't it kinda obvious why his +/- would be good on his on nights and bad on his off nights? I don't know why you want me to explain that to you...

The threat of him being a shooter is overrated now. Teams are learning how to counter that with EASE. Just look at Washington, they put Ariza (their SMALL forward) for on him and boom Frye was taken out of the picture in the 2nd half. All that teams have to do is put their SF on Frye and he's eliminated as a threat. Most PFs can guard Tucker since he isn't a threat to begin with.

I don't know if you put any stock in Hollinger's player efficiency ratings but if you take a look at them it's hard to see why we're winning at all. Goran is the 15th highest rated player but with Bledsoe out we don't have another starter in the top 130 (Fyre is 131st). Plumlee, Green and Tucker come in at 136, 145 and 198 respectively. How does a team win with that many starters rated so low? Well, Dragic and the Morris twins have a lot to do with it but Jeff's style of offense (highlighted by Frye's outside shooting) is also a big part of it.

Because PER is one of the dumbest stats on Earth? Again, PER and +/- don't indicate if a player is good or bad or even support if a player is good or bad.

Please don't use stats like Offensive Win Shares and Defensive Win Shares to tell me that Frye is good or something. Again, pointless stats. Use them against guys like slinslin cause I know they live by it but I don't.

 

[JS22]

Your just hating on Frye. Everyone knows that Frye chucking 3s is the only reason we are good. If you replace him with anyone else we would be a bad team. Doesn't matter if it's a Duncan or LMA, Frye is what makes the Suns go.

His elite 3pt shooting, rebounding and defense can't be found elsewhere.

It's funny. Your post, which you intended to be sarcastic, is actually true for the most part.

Frye IS a huge part of what makes the Suns "go." If Frye is having an off night the Suns are a very below average team offensively. Their offense is based on spacing and being able to hit open shots. Frye is a massive part of that. If he's not hitting his shots then the offense struggles immensely.

The Suns need a credible low post option in addition to Frye. It will give them ability to adapt to the defense they're facing.

But if you were to replace Frye with someone like Len then the entire system falls apart. The lane gets clogged and Dragic has less options to kick the ball out to once he draws in the defense.

I'm not even that big of a fan of Frye, which I've made clear plenty of times. However, I'm not blind to the fact that he is a key part of the Suns offense. Again, take away his threat of hitting the outside shot and the offense falls apart. We've seen evidence of that throughout the season.

Would I like to replace him with someone better? Of course. But having both your PF & C clog the lane does nothing positive for the Suns offense.

 

[Chaplin]

This hate against Frye is laughable and typical fickle fan crap. It's like the haters think the people that don't have a problem with him think he's the second coming of Karl Malone. Err, Dirk Nowitzki. Err, Kevin Garnett.

On a championship team, Frye probably is not a starter. But for our team (which--SURPRISE--is not a championship team), he's the best we got. He does great things in the offense Hornacek runs and it has helped more than hurt. Even the stats hounds can't dispute that.

Sure, we could use a better star PF. Many teams could. But that isn't to say it means that if we DID have that star PF, Frye should be completely off the team. BC has complained about Frye for so long, he has lost sight of the Phoenix Suns as a team. Frye is absolutely an integral part of this team. He's not the star or the best player on the team, but he's extremely important, and I find it naive to trivialize his contributions like many have done here. Especially when it's proven that he has been a massive positive influence on the team.

 

[BC867]

BC has complained about Frye for so long, he has lost sight of the Phoenix Suns as a team. Frye is absolutely an integral part of this team. He's not the star or the best player on the team, but he's extremely important, and I find it naive to trivialize his contributions like many have done here. Especially when it's proven that he has been a massive positive influence on the team.

And you don't think Frye's contributions (every NBA player is capable of making contributions) are offset by his betraying the Power Forward and Center positions by not using his size and bulk effectively and especially not being a decent rebounder?

Frye's style of play makes him a tweener -- a Wing in the body of a post-player. As sunsfan88 pointed out, Washington neutralized him by putting a Small Forward on him.

Good on spreading the floor. Sub-par on everything else. It adds up to mediocre. And neutralizes the other power player in the lineup, whether it is Plumlee or Len at Center (when Frye is playing PF) or Markeiff at Power Forward (when Frye is playing C).

Channing Frye is a man without a position. On a contending team (which we are trying to become), especially as we near the playoffs, he should not be a starting or backup Power Forward or Center. He should be "instant offense" off the bench.

His currently playing that role as a starter/post player does not fit in with the Suns aspirations for the future. And blocks adding a legitimate well-rounded post player.

 

[Chaplin]

And you don't think Frye's contributions (every NBA player is capable of making contributions) are offset by his betraying the Power Forward and Center positions by not using his size and bulk effectively and especially not being a decent rebounder?

Frye's style of play makes him a tweener -- a Wing in the body of a post-player. As sunsfan88 pointed out, Washington neutralized him by putting a Small Forward on him.

Good on spreading the floor. Sub-par on everything else. It adds up to mediocre. And neutralizes the other power player in the lineup, whether it is Plumlee or Len at Center (when Frye is playing PF) or Markeiff at Power Forward (when Frye is playing C).

Channing Frye is a man without a position. On a contending team (which we are trying to become), especially as we near the playoffs, he should not be a starting or backup Power Forward or Center. He should be "instant offense" off the bench.

His currently playing that role as a starter/post player does not fit in with the Suns aspirations for the future. And blocks adding a legitimate well-rounded post player.

No, no, no. I get the feeling you have no concept of the CURRENT Suns offense.

And aspirations for the future mean nothing at this point. Our "future" PF is Markieff freaking Morris right now, until we get something else, which we will do. You seem to think that Frye will remain our starting PF for many years to come, and that is just not true.

Do you go on record then that you want Markieff to be the starting PF? How is that any different than Frye as the starter? After that, who else on our roster should start at PF? I seriously hope you're not advocating Plumlee with Len as a starting center.

 

[sunsfan88]

I get that Frye gives great spacing. I really do. I said this earlier too but I don't hate Frye's game as much as I used to because I have come to respect the spacing he provides.

I have a question though. What's the difference between starting Frye at PF and say maybe playing Kyle Korver at PF (completely hypothetical so assume that Korver is on the Suns or easily acquired) ?

They would both provide spacing right? Korver is arguably a better shooter than Frye as well.

I like Frye off the bench but even looking back at our WCFs run in 09, Suns were bad when Frye was starting. We had to start guys like freaking Jarron Colins, Dwayne something over him to be successful and make that run in the 2nd half of the season.

And Chap, you said that the only team that Frye wouldn't start on is on the title winning team. So do you believe that he would start on any regular playoff team in the West right now? If so, which team?

 

[Chaplin]

I get that Frye gives great spacing. I really do. I said this earlier too but I don't hate Frye's game as much as I used to because I have come to respect the spacing he provides.

I have a question though. What's the difference between starting Frye at PF and say maybe playing Kyle Korver at PF (completely hypothetical so assume that Korver is on the Suns or easily acquired) ?

They would both provide spacing right? Korver is arguably a better shooter than Frye as well.

I like Frye off the bench but even looking back at our WCFs run in 09, Suns were bad when Frye was starting. We had to start guys like freaking Jarron Colins, Dwayne something over him to be successful and make that run in the 2nd half of the season.

And Chap, you said that the only team that Frye wouldn't start on is on the title winning team. So do you believe that he would start on any regular playoff team in the West right now? If so, which team?

No, I said he probably wouldn't be a starter on a championship contender. I can give you one team that is playoff-bound where he could start on -- the Phoenix Suns.

We ARE playoff-bound, after all. And you can't say with a straight face that the reason we aren't BETTER is because Frye is an awful starter. In fact, it is more likely you can say one of the reasons we ARE this good is Frye.

So here's the gist:

1) Frye is a decent, if not average, starter for a middle-of-the-pack playoff team (but not a title contender) like the Suns.
2) He has been a major part of why we are doing as well as we are doing. You can thank Hornacek's offensive philosophy if you won't give Frye any credit.
3) If we were to be any better than this, then it likely would not be because of Channing--he's done what he's had to do and done it well most of the time. What you see is what you get with him right now.
4) His shooting has been sporadic, but I'm wondering why this is a surprise? He's still better as a starter than Markieff is.

And I get you hate his defense, but he is still a 6'10" NBA player. I don't get why you think that bringing up Kyle Korver helps your argument. Korver isn't a PF by anyone's definition, hell, he's barely a SF at 6'7". Using your argument, why not Ray Allen instead of Frye? He's a better shooter, after all.

 

[sunsfan88]

No, I said he probably wouldn't be a starter on a championship contender. I can give you one team that is playoff-bound where he could start on -- the Phoenix Suns.

We ARE playoff-bound, after all. And you can't say with a straight face that the reason we aren't BETTER is because Frye is an awful starter. In fact, it is more likely you can say one of the reasons we ARE this good is Frye.

So here's the gist:

1) Frye is a decent, if not average, starter for a middle-of-the-pack playoff team (but not a title contender) like the Suns.
2) He has been a major part of why we are doing as well as we are doing. You can thank Hornacek's offensive philosophy if you won't give Frye any credit.
3) If we were to be any better than this, then it likely would not be because of Channing--he's done what he's had to do and done it well most of the time. What you see is what you get with him right now.
4) His shooting has been sporadic, but I'm wondering why this is a surprise? He's still better as a starter than Markieff is.

And I get you hate his defense, but he is still a 6'10" NBA player. I don't get why you think that bringing up Kyle Korver helps your argument. Korver isn't a PF by anyone's definition, hell, he's barely a SF at 6'7". Using your argument, why not Ray Allen instead of Frye? He's a better shooter, after all.

I was thinking Allen but I figured at his age he's probably too slow for our offense. I was actually gonna say Steph Curry. Cause what's the differece? Either way teams will attack our PF in the post and I think Frye's amazing 5 rebounds a game can be replaced by Korver, Allen or Curry. If you play that close to the rim on defense, you are pretty much guaranteed to get at least 5 boards a game cause the ball will bounce your way a handful of times.

And why do you keep bringing Kieff up? I haven't said he should start over Frye though based on Kieff's play, he would bring WAY MORE energy and is more of a threat to score inside while also having ability as a shooter.

Our forwards suck as starters and I think this off season, that should be our #1 priority.

 

[82CardsGrad]

This hate against Frye is laughable and typical fickle fan crap. It's like the haters think the people that don't have a problem with him think he's the second coming of Karl Malone. Err, Dirk Nowitzki. Err, Kevin Garnett.

On a championship team, Frye probably is not a starter. But for our team (which--SURPRISE--is not a championship team), he's the best we got. He does great things in the offense Hornacek runs and it has helped more than hurt. Even the stats hounds can't dispute that.

Sure, we could use a better star PF. Many teams could. But that isn't to say it means that if we DID have that star PF, Frye should be completely off the team. BC has complained about Frye for so long, he has lost sight of the Phoenix Suns as a team. Frye is absolutely an integral part of this team. He's not the star or the best player on the team, but he's extremely important, and I find it naive to trivialize his contributions like many have done here. Especially when it's proven that he has been a massive positive influence on the team.

Fundamentally - at least for me - I can't get around the fact that Frye is a 6'11" PF who prefers to stand behing the arc versus grabbing boards and playing tough. This season, he's averaging 5 boards a game (1 offensive), while tossing up 6 three-pointers per game in over 28 mins per game.
I don't have the time to research it, however, my gut tells me that there have been very few, if any 6'11" PF's who have put up those type of numbers...
Yes, he's ability to create space is nice... And, you are spot on in that he most definitely isn't a starter on a championship team. His game is not of championship pedigree. Champions and other top-tier contenders just don't have a 6'11" PF, who's best use is as a 3 point shooter... That, in a nutshell, is what causes my bellyache with Frye...

 

[82CardsGrad]

Our forwards suck as starters and I think this off season, that should be our #1 priority.

YES!!

 

[Chaplin]

Fundamentally - at least for me - I can't get around the fact that Frye is a 6'11" PF who prefers to stand behing the arc versus grabbing boards and playing tough. This season, he's averaging 5 boards a game (1 offensive), while tossing up 6 three-pointers per game in over 28 mins per game.
I don't have the time to research it, however, my gut tells me that there have been very few, if any 6'11" PF's who have put up those type of numbers...
Yes, he's ability to create space is nice... And, you are spot on in that he most definitely isn't a starter on a championship team. His game is not of championship pedigree. Champions and other top-tier contenders just don't have a 6'11" PF, who's best use is as a 3 point shooter... That, in a nutshell, is what causes my bellyache with Frye...

But what does that have to do with THIS season, with THIS team? He's still the best PF on the roster. That's not his fault.

 

[DWKB]

No, no, no. I get the feeling you have no concept of the CURRENT Suns offense.

And aspirations for the future mean nothing at this point. Our "future" PF is Markieff freaking Morris right now, until we get something else, which we will do. You seem to think that Frye will remain our starting PF for many years to come, and that is just not true.

Do you go on record then that you want Markieff to be the starting PF? How is that any different than Frye as the starter? After that, who else on our roster should start at PF? I seriously hope you're not advocating Plumlee with Len as a starting center.

I so don't get the hate from certain Suns fans on Kieff. He only out scores, gets to the line more, shoots more efficiently, out rebounds, and out passes Frye while making half as much so yeah, he totally sucks and should be traded.

 

[elindholm]

But what does that have to do with THIS season, with THIS team? He's still the best PF on the roster. That's not his fault.

Yes, right. I don't understand why some people are so hung up on the various little details that prevent this Suns roster from being a "contender." There's one big reason that they aren't a contender, which is that they don't have anywhere near enough elite talent. All the rest is just noise. Sure, Frye should rebound more, and Plumlee should be able to make free throws, and Green should make better decisions, and Dragic should improve his ball handling.... We can harp on whatever details we like, but no one of them is the difference between being a low playoff seed and having any realistic chance to beat a team like the Thunder of Heat in a seven-game series.

 

[BC867]

No, no, no. I get the feeling you have no concept of the CURRENT Suns offense.

And aspirations for the future mean nothing at this point. Our "future" PF is Markieff freaking Morris right now, until we get something else, which we will do. You seem to think that Frye will remain our starting PF for many years to come, and that is just not true.

Do you go on record then that you want Markieff to be the starting PF? How is that any different than Frye as the starter? After that, who else on our roster should start at PF? I seriously hope you're not advocating Plumlee with Len as a starting center.

I wish we could have pulled off a trade for a full-fledged Power Forward. Unless we do, you're right. This is the current Suns team.

Two Centers playing their first season with no strong Power Forward to take the pressure off them. That is not the way to develop young players.

For a long time, the Suns did the same thing in reverse, with a 212 lb. Center playing offense at the top of the key (equivalent to 3-point shots nowadays) and the Power Forward as the only strength down low, while other teams had power at both C and PF. It wears down the one guy trying to do it all.

Frye at PF or C not only hurts our other front court players. We are a fast-break team without a solid rebounder to trigger the fast break. It is an incomplete plan.

His opening the floor by playing 23 feet from the basket on offense (while being a piss-poor rebounder on defense) helps on one hand . . . but hurts on the other.