Suns sign Tyus Jones

[Mainstreet]

Those are signings to help along the margins... we are hoping that a major source of our problems last year was the lack of true point guards and that these 2 guys, neither exactly starting material, but still solid rotation players, will help us. It is a fair hope.

However, we're going to need to bring in real, high level talent over the years, legit starters, and without picks and without cap space, that is going to be really hard.

I'm expecting Mat Ishbia to do creative things with the Suns. Although I disagreed with the Durant trade, I think he is going to find a way to make the Suns highly competitive for years to come. He has demonstrated he wants to run a first class organization in Phoenix.

I expect new and ingenious ways to add talent, even if it takes beating the bushes overseas for talent and elsewhere. There is a lot of unrealized talent, as we saw in the Olympics. I think scouting and out of the box thinking will play a huge role with the Suns going forward.

 

[GatorAZ]

Listen, I have no doubt at some point the Suns are going to be hurting because of all the assets we sent out. However, the Suns are hardly the first team to go through that downturn, not the first team to make a bad trade and not the first team who even drafts to go through a horrible string of bad drafts. Bottom line is KD did show up. He was one of the best players in the NBA last year. It just wasn't enough.

KD tailed off down the stretch and sucked the playoffs which is expected for a guy in his 17th season. I don’t really see that flipping the other way in year 18 vs Father Time. I don’t think the Suns can win a title without KD looking like a top-5 player when it counts.

 

[clyde2tw]

KD tailed off down the stretch and sucked the playoffs which is expected for a guy in his 17th season. I don’t really see that flipping the other way in year 18 vs Father Time. I don’t think the Suns can win a title without KD looking like a top-5 player when it counts.

Playing 37 min a game and being asked to be the best defender all the time, that takes toll on anybody. Vogel lost the team against end of season, the sweep performance was an anormaly.

 

[Phrazbit]

Tyus Jones isn’t starting material? Dude, I know you LOATHE the KD trade, but you’ve become downright irrational with your doom and gloom about this franchise.

I'd like to expand on my response to this a bit.

For years I was considered a "homer" on this board, now, in the eyes of some, I am irrational in my negativity.

I actually REALLY like the Tyus Jones signing, I've said as much several times. If this roster is going to become functional, he will probably be a core part. However, it is largely a reflection of the imbalance that prevailed.

Jones isn't some star point guard, he's adequate, his entire career has been that of a backup point guard, the only year he spent as a full time starter was on one of the worst teams in the league, I don't blame him for that team being trash, there were a ton of things wrong with that roster, but, it stands to note, that Jones has NEVER been a starter on functional roster, he's played a role on some good teams but he's spent his entire career (outside of a disaster of a season on the Wizards) as a backup.

Am I glad we signed him, ABSOLUTELY! He fills a role we didn't even try to fill a year ago.

My judgement, IMO, is rather positive. To say I am trashing him, because I think the KD trade was stupid, is... in my opinion, absurd.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If we’re in the year 2030, in the middle of our third or fourth straight year as a bottom five team, and we’re sending out yet another top pick the Nets… I don’t think looking back on Durant averaging 27 a game for a couple seasons on a non-contender will cheer us up.

There’s a key word here.

Ishbia has shown all the signs of being a spender and a guy who thinks creatively. The likelihood of his allowing the team to bottom out, and for four straight years, is kind of a bit absurd. But that’s just my educated guess.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not remotely comparable.

The odds of us winning a title are very small, the odds of us being really, really bad towards the end of the decade are very high. That is the math here to put this in play for being an all-time disaster trade.

This is only true is your doomsday mindset. It’s like you’re trapped in sarverland. Ishbia isn’t sarver.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Agreed. I actually don't believe it will go this way though. IMO it was a very stupid overpayment but Ish isn't Robert Sarver, he's smart enough to realize he screwed up. But he's shown himself willing to spend money, to take risks in order to build a great program so I'm hopeful that our miserable years can be kept to a minimum.

But there are fans who apparently still believe giving the Nets everything it wanted was a well-thought-out move and if Ish thinks that same way, that's a huge concern going forward IMO. Personally, I still believe it was IT that made the decision and he's the sole reason Ish rushed into the move rather than playing hardball for the hours remaining on the trade clock.

If there are, they aren’t on ASFN. And you know this.

 

[Covert Rain]

KD tailed off down the stretch and sucked the playoffs which is expected for a guy in his 17th season. I don’t really see that flipping the other way in year 18 vs Father Time. I don’t think the Suns can win a title without KD looking like a top-5 player when it counts.

He was averaging 27.9 points before the playoffs (last month). He averaged almost 27.5 points in the playoffs, shot 55% from the field and was shooting over 41% from 3. Yes that was fueled by a 49 point game but it's not like he had any help outside of Booker. He scored 20 or more in every game but game 1. The Suns problems were much bigger than KD. He logged 42 minutes per game when there were questions if he could stay healthy all year let alone the playoffs. That's the very definition of showing up. If anybody didn't show up it was Bradley Beal and Nurk. The Suns needed way more out of both players.

The Suns offensive and defensive schemes were a hinderance. So much ISO was a hinderance. The bench was a hinderance. You can only ask so much of your two stars but if they don't get help? It doesn't matter how well your stars play. Back to the original point which had nothing to do with evaluating the team's chances of winning a title.....even if you think he was "only" a Top 10 player, none of those picks are likely to give you that either in terms of the assets the Suns gave up.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If there are, they aren’t on ASFN. And you know this.

That's not the way I read it. In this very thread there is at least one poster who still justifies the KD trade and hopes that Ish will continue to make those kinds of deals. That sounds to me like someone who believes that the trade was well thought out.

 

[Chaplin]

That's not the way I read it. In this very thread there is at least one poster who still justifies the KD trade and hopes that Ish will continue to make those kinds of deals. That sounds to me like someone who believes that the trade was well thought out.

That's not exactly the same thing -- justifying the trade doesn't necessarily mean they think it was a slam dunk trade. I don't think the trade was great, but nothing like worst in history. I don't know if you call that justifying the trade or not, but it certainly isn't an endorsement that it was "well thought out".

 

[AzStevenCal]

That's not exactly the same thing -- I don't think the trade was great, but nothing like worst in history. I don't know if you call that justifying the trade or not, but it certainly isn't an endorsement that it was "well thought out".

You're right, that part alone doesn't equal what I said. But the idea that someone would also hope Ishbia continues to take those kind of risks in the future does, IMO.

 

[Covert Rain]

That's not exactly the same thing -- justifying the trade doesn't necessarily mean they think it was a slam dunk trade. I don't think the trade was great, but nothing like worst in history. I don't know if you call that justifying the trade or not, but it certainly isn't an endorsement that it was "well thought out".

This.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This.

Well, I'm not trying to misrepresent your position. It sure seems to me that in addition to you still supporting the trade, you hope Ishbia will keep doing things like that which means to me that you consider the KD a well-thought-decision. If I've read you wrong, it wasn't intentional.

 

[Chaplin]

Well, I'm not trying to misrepresent your position. It sure seems to me that in addition to you still supporting the trade, you hope Ishbia will keep doing things like that which means to me that you consider the KD a well-thought-decision. If I've read you wrong, it wasn't intentional.

Let's be clear, I support getting Kevin Durant on the Phoenix Suns. Do I support giving away the haul we did regardless of who we acquired? Not really, but I'm not as down on it as everyone else is. I simply don't think the assets themselves are going to be that great. As far as the trade goes, the Suns did it based on QUALITY, not QUANTITY. We won't know if that was the right move for a few years at least.

But again, the odds that we will be a perennial lottery team in 4 years is extremely low.

 

[Covert Rain]

Well, I'm not trying to misrepresent your position. It sure seems to me that in addition to you still supporting the trade, you hope Ishbia will keep doing things like that which means to me that you consider the KD a well-thought-decision. If I've read you wrong, it wasn't intentional.

I support the Suns going all in when possible and doing something verses following the same strategy that has led to 55 years of futility.

I absolutely hope Ishbia keeps doing everything in his power to bring a title here.

However, I am also a realist. Not all of these moves will work out. Some will be riskier than others. “Well thought out” is subjective. For example if we had won a title nobody would be debating that at all. In a few years from now, if none of those assets net a Top 10 NBA player I seriously doubt anybody will care.

Any moves we make are results driven. Having said that, I agree with @Chaplin in that the panic over these assets and what they will turn into is way overblown.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I support the Suns going all in when possible and doing something verses following the same strategy that has led to 55 years of futility.

I absolutely hope Ishbia keeps doing everything in his power to bring a title here.

However, I am also a realist. Not all of these moves will work out. Some will be riskier than others. “Well thought out” is subjective. For example if we had won a title nobody would be debating that at all. In a few years from now, if none of those assets net a Top 10 NBA player I seriously doubt anybody will care.

Any moves we make are results driven. Having said that, I agree with @Chaplin in that the panic over these assets and what they will turn into is way overblown.

I used "well-thought-out" because it wasn't my intention to focus on the trade, just the FO's thought process. I think Ish made a huge mistake listening to IT and I hope he learned how risky that is. I had no problem with giving up assets to make the team better but I don't believe the decision makers did enough analysis, or listened to the ones doing the analysis. We had hours to spare, there were no credible rumors of a package even close to ours and Ish had just taken over. Perfect storm.

And I'm fine with him gambling but IMO he didn't fully understand the lay of the land. We were not deep yet we turned several players into one and had no good way to replace what we'd lost. We should have held firm on a much lesser deal and I believe they would have caved as the deadline approached. And if I'm wrong about that and we missed out on the trade because of it, so be it. Sometimes you just have to walk away from a deal even if the fan in you really wants to make something big happen.

 

[Covert Rain]

I used "well-thought-out" because it wasn't my intention to focus on the trade, just the FO's thought process. I think Ish made a huge mistake listening to IT and I hope he learned how risky that is. I had no problem with giving up assets to make the team better but I don't believe the decision makers did enough analysis, or listened to the ones doing the analysis. We had hours to spare, there were no credible rumors of a package even close to ours and Ish had just taken over. Perfect storm.

And I'm fine with him gambling but IMO he didn't fully understand the lay of the land. We were not deep yet we turned several players into one and had no good way to replace what we'd lost. We should have held firm on a much lesser deal and I believe they would have caved as the deadline approached. And if I'm wrong about that and we missed out on the trade because of it, so be it. Sometimes you just have to walk away from a deal even if the fan in you really wants to make something big happen.

I gotcha but that’s all predicated on the assumption those assets amount to anything. What if they amount to mostly wash outs?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Oh please... what is Booker supposed to do about being on a capped out roster with no assets (other than himself) and no picks? I am sure dudes around the league will be dying to get him to come join THEM.

If kd and beal are gone it’s not capped out, it’s the opposite: flush with cash. What did the nets do with at? They signed a younger kd and kyrie.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If kd and beal are gone it’s not capped out, it’s the opposite: flush with cash. What did the nets do with at? They signed a younger kd and kyrie.

Don’t bother Ouch. Phrazbit is on one of his catastrophising rolls where the future is hopeless… even though in a couple years we should be flush with cap space, more future picks to trade and in his eyes, a superstar… even though he doesn’t think that “superstar” would be able to get other great players to come play with him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That's not the way I read it. In this very thread there is at least one poster who still justifies the KD trade and hopes that Ish will continue to make those kinds of deals. That sounds to me like someone who believes that the trade was well thought out.

I don’t read anyone that way. But even if there’s one, Then shouldn’t it be “there is a” and not “there are?” Don’t worry, I get it, it riles up more people to exaggerate.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That's not exactly the same thing -- justifying the trade doesn't necessarily mean they think it was a slam dunk trade. I don't think the trade was great, but nothing like worst in history. I don't know if you call that justifying the trade or not, but it certainly isn't an endorsement that it was "well thought out".

Correct. Also, justify why it was made isn’t saying they still believe it to have been a good trade with hindsight, which is what Steve was saying.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You're right, that part alone doesn't equal what I said. But the idea that someone would also hope Ishbia continues to take those kind of risks in the future does, IMO.

Eh, that’s a different thing. He just likes ishbia’s ability to take big swings.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Don’t bother Ouch. Phrazbit is on one of his catastrophising rolls where the future is hopeless… even though in a couple years we should be flush with cap space, more future picks to trade and in his eyes, a superstar… even though he doesn’t think that “superstar” would be able to get other great players to come play with him.

This doesn’t help the conversation.

 

[GatorAZ]

He was averaging 27.9 points before the playoffs (last month). He averaged almost 27.5 points in the playoffs, shot 55% from the field and was shooting over 41% from 3. Yes that was fueled by a 49 point game but it's not like he had any help outside of Booker. He scored 20 or more in every game but game 1. The Suns problems were much bigger than KD. He logged 42 minutes per game when there were questions if he could stay healthy all year let alone the playoffs. That's the very definition of showing up. If anybody didn't show up it was Bradley Beal and Nurk. The Suns needed way more out of both players.

The Suns offensive and defensive schemes were a hinderance. So much ISO was a hinderance. The bench was a hinderance. You can only ask so much of your two stars but if they don't get help? It doesn't matter how well your stars play. Back to the original point which had nothing to do with evaluating the team's chances of winning a title.....even if you think he was "only" a Top 10 player, none of those picks are likely to give you that either in terms of the assets the Suns gave up.

The numbers I see are different. In April he averaged 23/5/4 on 46% FG. In March he averaged better scoring numbers 26 ppg on 53% FG but had more turnovers than assists for the entire month. The playoff numbers looked good on paper but did anyone think he made a superstar impact? When KD is in a perfect situation (Warriors and Olympics) he’s a top-5 player all time. When he’s the underdog or facing adversity, far from it. Maybe the combination of Coach Bud and a legitimate PG get him closer to that ideal situation where he thrives.

 

[Phrazbit]

Me when the trade happened: The KD trade has a real chance to be an all time disaster.

Cheese: Nope, how can you push this point? ... you hate the trade so much you want them to lose.

A year goes by.

Cheese: You were right about the KD trade.

A few months go by.

Me: Literally the exact same thing I said in the first place.

Don’t bother Ouch. Phrazbit is on one of his catastrophising rolls where the future is hopeless… even though in a couple years we should be flush with cap space, more future picks to trade and in his eyes, a superstar… even though he doesn’t think that “superstar” would be able to get other great players to come play with him.