Suns Summer League Games

[dreamcastrocks]

The key is that the Spurs do not rely on their point guard to "make plays", but move the ball around more and use the "hit the open man" style. IMHO, the Suns will do more of that with the addition of Hill, so the fact that Barbosa and Banks are not playmakers will not be the problem it has been.

The Spurs do rely on Parker to slash to the basket and make plays.

 

[Covert Rain]

The Spurs do rely on Parker to slash to the basket and make plays.

I agree. I don't think it's a coincidence that when Parker is passive and not shooting well, the Spurs struggle.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

The comparisons of Banks to Parker are interesting because Parker is not really much of a point guard. This past season he averaged only 5,5 assists a game, (Manu averaged 3.5 and Duncan 3.4).

The key is that the Spurs do not rely on their point guard to "make plays", but move the ball around more and use the "hit the open man" style. IMHO, the Suns will do more of that with the addition of Hill, so the fact that Barbosa and Banks are not playmakers will not be the problem it has been.

For anyone in the NBA to be compared with Tony Parker IMO, you need to be one of the best players at getting in the center of the lane, this is where he just decimates teams and this is what makes him a great player. I haven't seen many smaller players that can get to the lane like him.

 

[hafey]

I would hope that everyone here could agree, that relatively speaking, Banks single best skill is getting into the lane.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Then he's doing what he should be doing and he shouldn't be criticized for it. Perhaps he should be dominating these kids, but I highly doubt you thought he would. He clearly has talent. In terms of speed and quickness, Banks is similar to Tony Parker. In terms of his overall game, of course he's not.

No I really thought he would, in fact, I knew fans would have this euphoric reaction over the summer league. Let me ask you, did you watch the feed? Becuase I did, the whole thing, and let me tell you it was clear that Banks was an NBA player and everyone else was not on the floor. I expected this because eventhough I think Banks is a below average NBA player any NBA player will absolutely school some free agent scrub or Rookie and Banks looked like a superstar at the end but If you aren't watching then watch the games this isn't Tony Parker or hell even Vaughn guarding Banks. It won't translate 1:1 to next season and it is not going to get me all riled up to bag on D'Anotni for not giving him 30 minutes in the playoffs, sorry.

One more thing, I really think Marion or Amare could score 100 points in some of these games.

Whatever, I hope Banks does well, in fact I would be estatic because I want them to keep KT for this season.

 

[azirish]

The Spurs do rely on Parker to slash to the basket and make plays.

Last season it did not seem like Banks was driving the basket, so that alone is a big deal if he's changing. The drive and kick is situational as we know with Boris who is too inclined to kick out.

Marbury was probably the most "drive and kick out" oriented guy the Suns have had in recent memory. He averaged over 8 assists per game when with the Suns and almost all of them on kick outs. Unfortunately, he'd do it with only a few seconds on the clock so he was often forcing guys to take bad shots.

Drive and kick involves split second decision making. Can the driving player get to the basket before the help defender get in posiito?. How far open is the help defender's man and will the defense rotate to cover him? Is the open man able to shoot right away or will he have to make a move? Is there enough time left if the kick out man has to make a move or make another pass?

Banks and Barbosa both need to learn how do make those decisions instantly. That won't turn them into point guards, but it would make them vastly more effective.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Last season it did not seem like Banks was driving the basket, so that alone is a big deal if he's changing. The drive and kick is situational as we know with Boris who is too inclined to kick out.

Marbury was probably the most "drive and kick out" oriented guy the Suns have had in recent memory. He averaged over 8 assists per game when with the Suns and almost all of them on kick outs. Unfortunately, he'd do it with only a few seconds on the clock so he was often forcing guys to take bad shots.

Drive and kick involves split second decision making. Can the driving player get to the basket before the help defender get in posiito?. How far open is the help defender's man and will the defense rotate to cover him? Is the open man able to shoot right away or will he have to make a move? Is there enough time left if the kick out man has to make a move or make another pass?

Banks and Barbosa both need to learn how do make those decisions instantly. That won't turn them into point guards, but it would make them vastly more effective.

I see it as the opposite. I personally think the drive and kick is the easiest of the plays for a passer, Of course kicking out to the correct guy is not always easy, but in general just driving and kicking out directly behind you like Barbosa and Banks do is not that difficult.

It's much more difficult to master inside the lane pasess like Kidd and Nash do.

I really believe that Banks's best chance for playing is by playing defense. The Suns don't need him to run the offense and don't need him to score. they need him to compensate for Hill and Nash at crucial periods.

 

[sly fly]

You talkin' about SUMMER LEAGUE. SUMMER LEAGUE. It's not like it's a real game. It's SUMMER LEAGUE. Who needs SUMMER LEAGUE? It's SUMMER LEAGUE.

 

[azirish]

You talkin' about SUMMER LEAGUE. SUMMER LEAGUE. It's not like it's a real game. It's SUMMER LEAGUE. Who needs SUMMER LEAGUE? It's SUMMER LEAGUE.

It's Banks who couldn't do anything right in training camp nor in the early part of the regular season. Anything form him would be a huge improvement.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I see it as the opposite. I personally think the drive and kick is the easiest of the plays for a passer, Of course kicking out to the correct guy is not always easy, but in general just driving and kicking out directly behind you like Barbosa and Banks do is not that difficult.

It's much more difficult to master inside the lane pasess like Kidd and Nash do.

I really believe that Banks's best chance for playing is by playing defense. The Suns don't need him to run the offense and don't need him to score. they need him to compensate for Hill and Nash at crucial periods.

I agree with you. The drive and kick is not Banks' biggest problem, it was finishing around the rim, and shooting the ball like a scrub. If Banks could finish around the rim, like Barbosa for example, he would be fine.

I remember a couple of years ago, when Barbosa would brick everything off of the rim as well. He learned how to use the glass effectively.

 

[Errntknght]

If you missed the webcast of the Suns yesterday, you can view at least part of it still. Go to nba.com/summerleague2007 and look on the right side of the page at the top. Click on the text that says Banks sets scoring record. It starts at the beginning of the game - I just watched five minutes, but I wouldn't be surprised if gave the entire game.

 

[Errntknght]

Parker is one of the worst possible comparison's for Banks - Tony drives under complete control and has an incredible arsenal of shots in the paint. Banks rushes at the rim on the verge of being out of control, worse than Barbs ever was. Still he does take it hard and draws fouls at a pretty good clip so it is the best part of his offensive game.

I do remember Eric insisting that Marcus Banks was a SG but I don't recall many people saying he was anything like a pass first PG. Pretty much everyone knew he liked to go hard to the basket and that he shot occasional 3's at a decent clip (35%). Statistically, that year he looked like a lot more of a PG than Barbs - 5.8 asst/40 vs. 3.9 for Leandro.

Sure, quite a few people were hoping that Banks would be Nash's successor while Eric insisted it would never happen but if you pick almost any young PG in the league, the odds of him being a worthy successor to Nash are very low. As people have remarked many times, if young Steve Nash was in the league right now, no one would be touting him as a likely heir to Steve Nash. So Eric might be proven wrong yet, but at the moment I tend to agree with him - Banks is no closer to a PG than Barbosa. Now, Leandro seems to be on a better learning, too.

 

[azirish]

Parker is one of the worst possible comparison's for Banks - Tony drives under complete control and has an incredible arsenal of shots in the paint. Banks rushes at the rim on the verge of being out of control, worse than Barbs ever was. Still he does take it hard and draws fouls at a pretty good clip so it is the best part of his offensive game.

How out of control did he appear? Did he get called for charging very often?

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Parker is one of the worst possible comparison's for Banks - Tony drives under complete control and has an incredible arsenal of shots in the paint. Banks rushes at the rim on the verge of being out of control, worse than Barbs ever was. Still he does take it hard and draws fouls at a pretty good clip so it is the best part of his offensive game.

I do remember Eric insisting that Marcus Banks was a SG but I don't recall many people saying he was anything like a pass first PG. Pretty much everyone knew he liked to go hard to the basket and that he shot occasional 3's at a decent clip (35%). Statistically, that year he looked like a lot more of a PG than Barbs - 5.8 asst/40 vs. 3.9 for Leandro.

Sure, quite a few people were hoping that Banks would be Nash's successor while Eric insisted it would never happen but if you pick almost any young PG in the league, the odds of him being a worthy successor to Nash are very low. As people have remarked many times, if young Steve Nash was in the league right now, no one would be touting him as a likely heir to Steve Nash. So Eric might be proven wrong yet, but at the moment I tend to agree with him - Banks is no closer to a PG than Barbosa. Now, Leandro seems to be on a better learning, too.

Yeah, I think the Suns probably feel Nash has 3 more great to good years, it's highly unlikely Banks will be around in three years much less be the annointed successor. If he can just back up Nash by not shooting them out of the game and play good defense that's probably good enough for 2007-08 if they don't trade him.

 

[Errntknght]

How out of control did he appear? Did he get called for charging very often?

He didn't get called for charging at all - in fact, there were no charging calls made that I recall in the whole second half. (With the given screen resolution it was hard to argue with any calls.) Once I thought he got called for clearing out with his off arm but the announcer said it was a traveling violation.

In the half that I watched, Marcus was not driving all that much - his jump shot was falling and he did most of scoring from the outside. When he did drive he usually got a foul call, hence his large number of FTs. I recall one 'and 1' and another made basket with no foul on drives.

 

[azirish]

He didn't get called for charging at all - in fact, there were no charging calls made that I recall in the whole second half. (With the given screen resolution it was hard to argue with any calls.) Once I thought he got called for clearing out with his off arm but the announcer said it was a traveling violation.

In the half that I watched, Marcus was not driving all that much - his jump shot was falling and he did most of scoring from the outside. When he did drive he usually got a foul call, hence his large number of FTs. I recall one 'and 1' and another made basket with no foul on drives.

I'm guessing Banks has spent a considerable amount of time working on his outside shooting. It looked like it was improved in his few appearances late in the seaons, but it so infrequent it was hard to tell.

If all his points were from driving the basket, then it could be dismissed as just incompetant defenders. But hitting threes, even if wide open, is something Marion has not mastered. It is something to watch for the rest of the week.

 

[AsUdUdE]

I have some faith, I don't think anyone on these forums is stupid enough to get pumped up on what Banks a 4 year pro does in a league filled with scrubs and rooks.

still think this way?

42 is impressive no matter what level your on.....

alas its only one game and im not making a judgement either way, but banks looked GOOD last night IMO

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

still think this way?

42 is impressive no matter what level your on.....

alas its only one game and im not making a judgement either way, but banks looked GOOD last night IMO

sorry, not impressive. didn't bo outlaw drop 36 a couple of years ago? this is scrub ball. it's meant to teach young guns how to play nba ball. banks already knows that, he just hasn't been talented enough to excel at the big boy level.

so congrats on the scoring mark. no one will remember that in two years.

 

[Cheesebeef]

didn't bo outlaw drop 36 a couple of years ago?

no one will remember that in two years.

these two statements don't jive with eachother!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

these two statements don't jive with eachother!

okay, no one other than those of us crazy enough to reside on these boards. regardless, the point i was making was the illusion of scoring in the summer leagues having any significance to the ability to score during the regular season. none.

 

[Cheesebeef]

okay, no one other than those of us crazy enough to reside on these boards. regardless, the point i was making was the illusion of scoring in the summer leagues having any significance to the ability to score during the regular season. none.

i know that was your point. i was just being a jackass. i do it to everyone else, why should my brother be an exception.

Transformers was just as good the second time as it was the first.

 

[SunsTzu]

sorry, not impressive. didn't bo outlaw drop 36 a couple of years ago? this is scrub ball. it's meant to teach young guns how to play nba ball. banks already knows that, he just hasn't been talented enough to excel at the big boy level.

so congrats on the scoring mark. no one will remember that in two years.

In fairness the leagues Bo played in weren't NBA summer leagues, they were more like YMCA leagues. Not that I'm putting any stock in Banks' performance.

 

[azirish]

Marco Belinelli only scored 15 tonight (after 36 the other day) hitting only 5 of 13. Every day is different and it will take a long time to deterime if a good day or a bad day is indicitive talent or just that anybody can get hot.

It's eaiser to bet on Banks not succeeding because he did so badly last season. But I for one am hoping he does well because the Suns need the depth.

 

[Chaplin]

In fairness the leagues Bo played in weren't NBA summer leagues, they were more like YMCA leagues. Not that I'm putting any stock in Banks' performance.

While Banks performance probably isn't anything to get really excited about, your statement about the summer leagues isn't entirely accurate. Bo Outlaw (and Penny Hardaway) played summer ball down in Long Beach when it was a viable summer pro league. They usually played on a non-NBA-affiliated team, with some NBA players and some older guys that have been around awhile, but never made it to the pros. They usually played other "club" teams like them, and normally didn't play the NBA teams, who played each other. Long Beach was the same league that Amare started out with. I actually saw him play in his first game after he was drafted in that league.

 

[Errntknght]

I finally watched the first half of the game and I have to revise what I said about Banks. He ran the offense quite well and didn't resort to shooting at every opportunity. The problem was that his teammates were missing shots when he set them up or fumbling the ball away or traveling - Sow even missed a lightly contested dunk off a very nice feed from Marcus. On one fast break he threw a Nash-like long bounce pass ahead for a score. Even his D was better - fighting through some screens and just moving his feet well instead of reaching in all the time. He did have one nice clean dribble steal in the open court - for a dunk.

Where the team got soundly beaten was inside - Cleveland got lots of second chance points on top of pounding the ball into middle. Dwayne Jones and Darius Rice seemed to do most of the heavy work - though Rice hit on several 3's as well.