Suns @ Thunder 11-3-13

[slinslin]

Neither Len nor Goodwin played, are we developing our young guys now or more interested in picking up a win?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Neither Len nor Goodwin played, are we developing our young guys now or more interested in picking up a win?

Len sat because of sore ankles (not surprising) and Goodwin has been pretty much clueless thus far (also to be expected). Len would have played otherwise, but Archie needs to be brought along slowly which might mean a few DNPs early in the season.

 

[Phrazbit]

I think Goodwin and Len are totally lost and may collect a few of those early in the season. They need a lot of coaching. Len has Steven Hunter Eyes. By that, I mean ...

Agreed, and while I like Goodwin's aggressiveness, he is trying a bit too hard when he is in there. Just barreling into the lane trying to force a foul basically every time he gets the ball.

Its one thing to get them some seasoning and its another to wreck their confidence. I dont think it does either player a service to leave them out there regardless of how bad they're playing... and both have been pretty bad.

 

[BC867]

You know how I know the Suns are tanking? Because Suns fans are talking about 7 point moral losses.

If the Suns were predicted to be a playoff team, but not one of the top 2, I think we'd be saying the same thing about a 7-point loss to the Thunder on their court, especially with Westbrook and Durant back together scoring 54.

Neither the coaches nor the players were tanking last night.

 

[Absolute Zero]

You know how I know the Suns are tanking? Because Suns fans are talking about 7 point moral losses.

This makes zero sense, sorry. The Suns are not trying to tank. And there is no connection between the fans' statements here and the approach of Coach Hornacek and the crew to the season.

 

[Mainstreet]

Len was held out of Sunday's game due to a sore left ankle. This is from a Paul Coro article dated 11-3-13 at azcentral.

Suns rookie center Alex Len was held out when his left ankle became sore again. He was held out of practices the previous weekend due to soreness in the ankle.

Len had May surgery that implanted a metal plate in the ankle after he suffered a partial stress fracture.

This is becoming more worrisome.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...ly-departure-suns-goran-dragic.html#protected

 

[Cheesebeef]

Len was held out of Sunday's game due to a sore left ankle. This is from a Paul Coro article dated 11-3-13 at azcentral.



This is becoming more worrisome.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...ly-departure-suns-goran-dragic.html#protected

as one of the chief worriers of Len's ankle problems, this doesn't worry me all that much already. he's only a matter of months outside of surgery and this is the first time he's really being pushed at another level. this continues deeper into the year, then I'll get my worry back on, but until then, it was kinda what I expected at the beginning of the season.

 

[KloD]

Yep, feet/ankle injuries can take a long time to heal. We have to walk. it's just not an area that's easy to rest. I broke both feet and it took a very long time before I stopped having pain.

 

[Gaddabout]

This makes zero sense, sorry. The Suns are not trying to tank. And there is no connection between the fans' statements here and the approach of Coach Hornacek and the crew to the season.

The Suns are CLEARLY trying to tank (I wasn't aware this was up for debate), but I wasn't talking about either the coach or the players. They're actually putting out intense effort, which is why we're all here ... caring.

The reason why anyone's OK with a 7 point loss to anyone is because expectations were Washington Generals bad. The FO made sure of it.

 

[Absolute Zero]

The Suns are CLEARLY trying to tank (I wasn't aware this was up for debate), but I wasn't talking about either the coach or the players. They're actually putting out intense effort, which is why we're all here ... caring.

You leave so much to implication its hard to understand you. I can only presume you are referring to management.

But still, how can you say that the Suns are trying to tank if the players and the coaches are trying to win? The people on the floor are the ones that count.

 

[Chaplin]

The Suns are CLEARLY trying to tank (I wasn't aware this was up for debate), but I wasn't talking about either the coach or the players. They're actually putting out intense effort, which is why we're all here ... caring.

The reason why anyone's OK with a 7 point loss to anyone is because expectations were Washington Generals bad. The FO made sure of it.

Huh? How are they clearly trying to tank? You think Hornacek told the guys last night, "hey, we're in a close game with a Western Conference superpower. Don't get ahead of yourselves, we certainly don't want to win this game."

Intentional tanking is asinine and is not happening. If Dragic was healthy, we might have even won that game! And LOL if sitting Len is proof of tanking.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns are CLEARLY trying to tank (I wasn't aware this was up for debate), but I wasn't talking about either the coach or the players. They're actually putting out intense effort, which is why we're all here ... caring.

The reason why anyone's OK with a 7 point loss to anyone is because expectations were Washington Generals bad. The FO made sure of it.

I think you need to define "tanking" before we go further.

I do not think the process of building a young competitive team for the future while playing to win is tanking.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think you need to define "tanking" before we go further.

I do not think the process of building a young competitive team for the future while playing to win is tanking.

Agreed. To me, and, at one time, to all of us, tanking means intentionally playing at a level below your ability. There was probably a way to say that without wasting all those commas but you get the point. We are focusing on the future, not tanking. Philadelphia is likely doing the same thing. Now, if we bench Dragic and Bledsoe for the second half of the season for no reason other than to make us worse, that's tanking. But until we do that, we're just doing what teams have been doing forever. We are rebuilding.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

Just got word that Dragic will only miss 2 games.

 

[Phrazbit]

When I think of "tanking" in the NBA its a front office thing, not something the players do. No team would ever tell their players to roll over. However, franchises will put together a collection of players that dont have any real chance at competing on a night to night basis.

You can call it "tanking" or "rebuilding around youth" or whatever, but I think from a management perspective this season will end up being more about developing for the future... while earning a very high pick at the same time. And I realize I'm saying this with the team 2-1, and I LOVE the way they've played... but I think there is a lot of regressing to the mean that will take place, and its a very young team that might not react that well when the loses start to pile on.

 

[AzStevenCal]

When I think of "tanking" in the NBA its a front office thing, not something the players do. No team would ever tell their players to roll over. However, franchises will put together a collection of players that dont have any real chance at competing on a night to night basis.

You can call it "tanking" or "rebuilding around youth" or whatever, but I think from a management perspective this season will end up being more about developing for the future... while earning a very high pick at the same time. And I realize I'm saying this with the team 2-1, and I LOVE the way they've played... but I think there is a lot of regressing to the mean that will take place, and its a very young team that might not react that well when the loses start to pile on.

We're doing something that has long been called rebuilding but there is also something called tanking. Putting the two things under the "tanking" umbrella now makes no sense. Yes, it is a front office thing when it comes to the NBA (or pro sports in general) but teams that are making strategic decisions should not be confused with teams that throw in the towel during the season and bench/release quality players in an effort to lose games. Just because there are also draft picks involved doesn't mean it's tanking (not that you're saying that).

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

We're doing something that has long been called rebuilding but there is also something called tanking. Putting the two things under the "tanking" umbrella now makes no sense. Yes, it is a front office thing when it comes to the NBA (or pro sports in general) but teams that are making strategic decisions should not be confused with teams that throw in the towel during the season and bench/release quality players in an effort to lose games. Just because there are also draft picks involved doesn't mean it's tanking (not that you're saying that).

Steve

I think there is a fine line between the two... and when we're making moves like trading our starting center for a guy who is out for the year and a mid round pick and trading Butler for absolutely nothing... we crossed that line.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think there is a fine line between the two... and when we're making moves like trading our starting center for a guy who is out for the year and a mid round pick and trading Butler for absolutely nothing... we crossed that line.

Not really, Butler is an aging veteran that doesn't fit our style or our plan and Gortat is an asset that we would have lost for nothing if we didn't take steps. I'd be more inclined to agree with you if Gortat had 3 years left on his deal or something like that.

OKC needed (needs) JH but they traded him to Houston for a player they couldn't keep and some other unimpressive assets, were they tanking? I know that's an absurd comparison but the point is, they did what they did for reasons other than how they'd look in their next basketball game (and the next etc) but that doesn't make it tanking anymore than trading Gortat puts us on the low side of the tank line. It was a strategic decision, part of the rebuilding process as it always has been - not an outright attempt to lose games.

Steve

 

[Gaddabout]

Not really, Butler is an aging veteran that doesn't fit our style or our plan and Gortat is an asset that we would have lost for nothing if we didn't take steps. I'd be more inclined to agree with you if Gortat had 3 years left on his deal or something like that.

OKC needed (needs) JH but they traded him to Houston for a player they couldn't keep and some other unimpressive assets, were they tanking? I know that's an absurd comparison but the point is, they did what they did for reasons other than how they'd look in their next basketball game (and the next etc) but that doesn't make it tanking anymore than trading Gortat puts us on the low side of the tank line. It was a strategic decision, part of the rebuilding process as it always has been - not an outright attempt to lose games.

Steve

The Suns made no effort to to put together a competitive team this year. That it looks actually competitive is a nice irony. They did, in fact, acquire some talented young players. But to say the Suns put any effort into winning this year is funny. Just look at the bench. That's tactical tanking. Even a rebuilding team keeps a few veterans to teach the kids how to play the game.

 

[Phrazbit]

Not really, Butler is an aging veteran that doesn't fit our style or our plan and Gortat is an asset that we would have lost for nothing if we didn't take steps. I'd be more inclined to agree with you if Gortat had 3 years left on his deal or something like that.

OKC needed (needs) JH but they traded him to Houston for a player they couldn't keep and some other unimpressive assets, were they tanking? I know that's an absurd comparison but the point is, they did what they did for reasons other than how they'd look in their next basketball game (and the next etc) but that doesn't make it tanking anymore than trading Gortat puts us on the low side of the tank line. It was a strategic decision, part of the rebuilding process as it always has been - not an outright attempt to lose games.

Steve

If OKC had traded Harden for some dude who was out for the year and some future picks I think people would have been pretty baffled.

I love the Gortat trade, I liked the Butler trade, but as Gaddabout said; not only were we trading our starters away for future picks, but we made no effort to fill holes. We used camp invites to fill out our roster, we signed no one in free agency. Again, I LIKE that we did these things, these moves were overdue. Yeah, its "rebuilding", it absolutely is, but I dont think rebuilding and tanking are mutually exclusive. At the same time you can say they were not actively trying to lose... IMO its pretty clear the front office showed no interest in building a winner this year.

We shipped off our projected starters at SF, PF and Center, the return for those parts was made almost entirely of future picks and cap space. And we did it before the season even started!

When you enter the season and the only guy in your entire front court (small forward included) who has done anything in the league is a mediocre big coming off heart complications... to me, that defines tanking.

And I dont mind.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The Suns made no effort to to put together a competitive team this year. That it looks actually competitive is a nice irony. They did, in fact, acquire some talented young players. But to say the Suns put any effort into winning this year is funny. Just look at the bench. That's tactical tanking. Even a rebuilding team keeps a few veterans to teach the kids how to play the game.

Sorry, I just don't agree. Where is it written that winning in the short term is the opposite of tanking? We didn't just invent tanking - it's happened before. And we didn't just invent rebuilding, it happens all the time. We're rebuilding. Yes, we are not focused on winning games this year from a strategic point but if you're going to call that tanking then you might as well throw away the word "rebuilding". There's nothing wrong with looking at a situation and making decisions on a longer term basis than 82 games.

We can argue this all day long but I'll go back to what I think is the central point. If this is tanking then what, exactly, is rebuilding?

Steve

 

[Gaddabout]

Sorry, I just don't agree. Where is it written that winning in the short term is the opposite of tanking? We didn't just invent tanking - it's happened before. And we didn't just invent rebuilding, it happens all the time. We're rebuilding. Yes, we are not focused on winning games this year from a strategic point but if you're going to call that tanking then you might as well throw away the word "rebuilding". There's nothing wrong with looking at a situation and making decisions on a longer term basis than 82 games.

We can argue this all day long but I'll go back to what I think is the central point. If this is tanking then what, exactly, is rebuilding?

Steve

I think you're offended by my definition of tanking when there's no need to be offended. I'm enjoying it because I think they've been masterful at it. I'm very positive moving forward.

But trading Gortat now was about convenience as much as anything. It was a great deal. It was a great deal that could have happened in January. They pulled the trigger now because there is no incentive to win this year.

In my book, that's always called tanking.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I think you're offended by my definition of tanking when there's no need to be offended. I'm enjoying it because I think they've been masterful at it. I'm very positive moving forward.

But trading Gortat now was about convenience as much as anything. It was a great deal. It was a great deal that could have happened in January. They pulled the trigger now because there is no incentive to win this year.

In my book, that's always called tanking.

Yeah Steve, see above, these guys are right.

 

[Phrazbit]

Sorry, I just don't agree. Where is it written that winning in the short term is the opposite of tanking? We didn't just invent tanking - it's happened before. And we didn't just invent rebuilding, it happens all the time. We're rebuilding. Yes, we are not focused on winning games this year from a strategic point but if you're going to call that tanking then you might as well throw away the word "rebuilding". There's nothing wrong with looking at a situation and making decisions on a longer term basis than 82 games.

We can argue this all day long but I'll go back to what I think is the central point. If this is tanking then what, exactly, is rebuilding?

Steve

Like I said, I dont think they're mutually exclusive. Boston is a team I would say is "rebuilding". They traded some older players, they're building a new core, but they've kept some significant parts, they have some at least somewhat experienced players playing important roles. The Suns back in 2003/04 rebuilt. Halfway through that season they cleaned house and reorganized the roster with a clear intent to win the following summer.

However... some rosters are too far into the toilet to "rebuild" with any semblance of respectability. So we tore everything down... and did virtually nothing to replace what was lost. We havnt begun the "build" part of rebuilding. And what makes ours especially blatant IMO is that we tore the roster apart before the season started. A lot of teams blow up their roster mid-season when its clear they're not going anywhere. We however showed more initiative and basically gave up on making a competitive team before the season began.

Hope that clarifies some.

I respect the difference of opinion, I know some people feel tanking is a more loaded word than others.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think you're offended by my definition of tanking when there's no need to be offended. I'm enjoying it because I think they've been masterful at it. I'm very positive moving forward.

But trading Gortat now was about convenience as much as anything. It was a great deal. It was a great deal that could have happened in January. They pulled the trigger now because there is no incentive to win this year.

In my book, that's always called tanking.

I'm not offended by it but you're right, I'm only disagreeing with the word choice - I see our direction the same way you do. I just think the distinction between tanking and rebuilding is getting lost in the crowd because "tanking" makes such a great story. I think I'm more right about this then you guys are giving me credit for but I'm going to be less and less correct about this as time goes by.

When we reach the inevitable point where we all call this kind of rebuild "tanking", how will we distinguish between this and what happens when a team intentionally benches their best players down the stretch so they don't pick up extra wins? I think what we are doing is a long-accepted legitimate means of improving your franchise but I find the scenario I just described to be a bit shady. Using the same term for both situations blurs the lines IMO.

Steve