Suns Trade Half the team.

[devilalum]

I definitely have a short attention span but I still managed to read through that tome. And I agreed with much of CF88's post too. But I disagree with the idea that we had to make personnel changes because we missed the playoffs. Keeping that roster mostly intact for several years could well have been the most effective approach to contender status. Obviously that doesn't work unless there's full buy-in from the players and unfortunately, that wasn't the case this season.

Steve

In several years Goran will be OLD. Argue all you want about Knight being better than Dragic now, I doubt there will be any debate in 3 or 4 years.

 

[AzStevenCal]

In several years Goran will be OLD. Argue all you want about Knight being better than Dragic now, I doubt there will be any debate in 3 or 4 years.

Hope so, in fact I'm hoping Knight passes him by long before Dragic starts to lose a step. But I really don't know much about Brandon so it's just hope.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

Hope so, in fact I'm hoping Knight passes him by long before Dragic starts to lose a step. But I really don't know much about Brandon so it's just hope.

Steve

Knight has nice stats for a 23 year combo guard who wants to be a PG.

I do dread when he becomes a RFA.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/knighbr03.html

 

[CardsFan88]

But I disagree with the idea that we had to make personnel changes because we missed the playoffs. Keeping that roster mostly intact for several years could well have been the most effective approach to contender status. Obviously that doesn't work unless there's full buy-in from the players and unfortunately, that wasn't the case this season.

Steve

I understand that. I believe what the FO's rebuilding plan is, is that they aren't banking on simply growth from mediocre to good players, like many other teams. They want good players who may grow into superstars, and want them to match up age wise. They want them to buy in, and want them to look long term and put up with some stuff, for the team. It's not using a guy for wanting him to take one for the team.

Remember Jerry was also bagged on for treating players as Barkley called it, like meat. He was alluding more to playing while injured, but it creates a nice perspective when in contrast all McD was doing was asking him to MAYBE play out of position to three players and one be a backup, IT/Dragic/Bledsoe. If it was OK for Jerry, how come this much smaller transgression unto a player, causes such uproar, and people believing what Amin is saying.

Right or wrong, that's their plan imo, and they are going to keep churning the roster until they come up with good, young players for the core, and hopefully when the right superstar pieces either from trade, fa, or draft arrive, they will move forward.

These guys aren't going to fall into our laps. We're going to have to sign them, or trade them, or draft them. So we need cap space, we need to make trades, and we need picks to draft them. It brings me back to that old baseball saying, you throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. It's all fundamental, and we know it, but we're forgetting that this is exactly what we're seeing from McD. He's making these moves to get us there. He's fundamentally playing the front office game.

Until they get their guys, they want to keep flexibility and an eye towards the future. If certain circumstances force them to delay their bit, like what might have happened if we re-signed Dragic for the max, they were willing to. It's a long and continuous process.

Or if they signed Lebron they would of switched gears. Still looked towards the future, but switch the gears to also win now. So they are flexible. They aren't rigid. But certain things have to happen, and when small things like being in the 8th spot or not happen or don't happen, it won't take their eyes off the ultimate prize.

This doesn't mean they are gung-ho to trade everyone and treat them solely like they are 'assets'. I believe they too, were willing to take a certain more measured approach to it, but Dragic forced their hand.

They do want to run a certain system, they pointed to Golden State and Atlanta and how both don't have a single point guard distributing. They got out of balance because they wanted to use the assets that were available to them. Smaller players, and cap space to get smaller players. They could see which ones fit the most, and make decisions accordingly.

IT fit the bill. He was young. On a good contract. It protected us in case Bledsoe or Dragic left.

They simply expected Dragic to behave like a man, a man they have helped massively in his life, to weather some short term pain, for the bigger longer picture for the team.

See here in America, as we may remember, we used to have many long term plans. In fact, most of what are founding fathers did, was long term plans. Think Erie Canal. Or later, the intercontinental railway. Or even later, the interstate highway. It's the same thinking, but in a sports way.

Now we as Americans don't subscribe to this. We are short term, now, this season, this stock market reporting quarter thinking and it's destroying America.

We've gone so far away from our roots as a culture, most people simply can't form any sort of long term plan and can't even understand it anymore.

This is a major problem. Look at the Salt River Project. A forward looking plan, that basically built Phoenix. Without it, and with today's leadership and mindset we wouldn't have it, Phoenix would still be a town of a hundred thousand or so with no teams whatsoever to root for.

When you realize this long term plan, which isn't a master plan, but a flexible plan based on very true principles is what they want, you also realize that while Dragic may or may not have been part of that far future, they certainly were figuring out that they were 'unbalanced' and would move on when they could in the near future. They even said so. But Dragic didn't give them that chance.

It doesn't matter if 'this was forseeable', because it was never 'the grand plan' to begin with. The grand plan is being in position to better the future and grab superstars while adding good young talent to the core. To add assets, not lose them, and if someone is going to be gone, to at least break even. They went so far as to grab a guy in Knight they really like, so they even went beyond 'breakeven'.

We were not even four months into this experiment. It's not like McD told Dragic, this is how it's going to be for the next 2-3-5 years. We didn't tell Dragic he should expect a 3 PG system for that entire time. We had already acknowledged it was a mistake and we would move on, but Dragic wasn't willing to wait, he was thinking me-first and right now.

As we saw, we traded away IT, and even Ennis. Though maybe Ennis stays if Dragic doesn't go, since we probably don't pull off the Knight trade. Though maybe he's the guy we would of gone after in FA. Either way, Dragic was impatient and didn't understand our plan, and only partially bought in, last year.

But as a rookie, Ennis's future if it were to be with the Suns, was years away from stepping in significantly. So he really shouldn't of been that big of a deal to Dragic, especially since we had multiple picks. The first one, Warren wasn't his position. We got Bogdanovic, a SG and stashed him.

But people also don't realize the rationale of having this plan. To understand this process you have to look at the recent couple of generations (say since Bill Walton and Jack Sikma won championships in the late 70's). You also have notice how the NBA is different from other key sports.

The NBA is the one sport that superstars or near superstars reign supreme. Look at who wins the championships. The Duncans, the Magic's, the Jordans, the Shaq's, the Lebron's. They won the vast majority of the titles I've been alive (36...1978). In the end, looking back, if you didn't have one, you didn't win. That doesn't mean getting them automatically makes you win, but you literally have almost no shot, unless you have them. So in the NBA you NEED them to win.

While we have some very nice pieces, if we don't have guys like that, realistically our shot is very, very small. But not only do we not have those pieces, if we have any, they aren't ready, and regardless we're not anywhere close to contention with the teams that do have stars like that. This realization and the moves needed is what the Suns FO refers to when they talk about making hard trades and moves.

We could of stood pat and had a nice team to watch and enjoy, but it wasn't going to be competing for championships. We could maybe add a piece here or there and perhaps. But Lebron is out of the question now. We don't know when the next piece we'll have an opportunity to land. All we can do is be ready for it when it happens.

So are any of our guys Superstars like that? Not really. We have complementary pieces. We might have guys that could become the Pippen's, the Worthy's, the Bosh's, the Ginobilli's...but we still need that top dog, or two to really compete. There has only been what, 8 or so teams that have won championships since 1977 or so? Those teams all had superstars. Most of those teams won 2-3-6 championships. The NBA is feast or famine, and while I loved watching our good teams with Barkley, and KJ, and Nash, even Kidd, and perpetually making the playoffs most years during that stretch, our good teams were always outshined by teams with stars.

Then $arver when we had stars and good up and coming complementary players and picks, screwed it all up. Finally after JC worked all those decades to get us there...did that to us. Now we are trying to get back there. It's going to take awhile. This is something I realized might happen, the first bad move $arver made. In fact I alluded to the fact that I hope $arver didn't have these growing pains in or around the first thread that appeared on this site when $arver was negotiating/bought the team.

The only position in sports that is akin to this, and it's different, is QB in the NFL. In the NBA, you basically have five guys who can each be a 'QB' or have the effectiveness that a QB has on their team. So while it is a team sport, it is dominated by individuals. The best you can do is when you have great stars as individuals, backed up by good complementary players, all playing with the team in mind. Think Jordan or Magic running the triangle. The good ones DID what Dragic would not. They could of wanted more flashy stats, but instead they bought into the team concept, partially sacrificed individual glory, and in the end, won team AND individual glory.

We need to ask ourselves what should the FO want? As a fan, I want championships, and in the meantime, like I've been lucky to watch over my lifetime, I want to watch some really fun, great Suns fast and high scoring teams. If we aren't winning championships, it would be nice to have that.

But it's not the job of the FO to simply stop there. Me realizing this, means I'll take a few drops down here or there, for the bigger picture. So are we as fans going to have the thinking of Dragic, or the thinking of winners? I know what I'll align my consent to.

Sorry for the next tome in the series of tomes lol

 

[Errntknght]

I think we have just witnessed the autopsy of a post.

Thank goodness I skipped the dissected post so there was no reason to read the autopsy. I'm going to stay on my toes though, ready to dodge the point by point re-rebuttal.

 

[sunsfan88]

In several years Goran will be OLD. Argue all you want about Knight being better than Dragic now, I doubt there will be any debate in 3 or 4 years.

Goran was actually a backup for much of his early career so he doesn't have much mileage on him. He also doesn't rely on athleticism as much as he does craftiness so he should age well like Ginobili.

To put it into perspective, Westbrook came into the league same year as Goran and yet Goran's played over 4000 less minutes than Westbrook.

 

[slinslin]

His craftiness... dude is terrible in the halfcourt at getting to the rim.

A lot of his points come from 1 man fastbreaks, you better believe that requires athleticism.

 

[CardsFan88]

Goran was actually a backup for much of his early career so he doesn't have much mileage on him. He also doesn't rely on athleticism as much as he does craftiness so he should age well like Ginobili.

To put it into perspective, Westbrook came into the league same year as Goran and yet Goran's played over 4000 less minutes than Westbrook.

Have you factored in all the years he played team Slovenian basketball? That and with the olympics coming up next year, he probably will be playing both these years. Who knows after that, or if the Heat could get him to stop, I guess we should say that is TBD.

He also plays extremely hard and gets banged up alot more then the average player. So his minutes should be weighted heavier then most other players. How much I don't know, just that if this was football, I'd say his playing style wears him down like a rb does.

Plus, while it may or may not be a factor with Goran, he no longer has the Suns medical staff to make sure he doesn't have various deficiencies in his core or whatever. Though I don't know what the Miami Heat have, so perhaps this is similar. Highly doubtful theirs is better.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Goran was actually a backup for much of his early career so he doesn't have much mileage on him. He also doesn't rely on athleticism as much as he does craftiness so he should age well like Ginobili.

To put it into perspective, Westbrook came into the league same year as Goran and yet Goran's played over 4000 less minutes than Westbrook.

I can tell you listen to the BS Report Podcast.

 

[FArting]

Have we made a decision on Granger yet?

 

[SunsFan89]

Can The Phoenix Suns Win A Championship In A Couple Years?

 

[sunsfan88]

Have you factored in all the years he played team Slovenian basketball? That and with the olympics coming up next year, he probably will be playing both these years. Who knows after that, or if the Heat could get him to stop, I guess we should say that is TBD.

He also plays extremely hard and gets banged up alot more then the average player. So his minutes should be weighted heavier then most other players. How much I don't know, just that if this was football, I'd say his playing style wears him down like a rb does.

Plus, while it may or may not be a factor with Goran, he no longer has the Suns medical staff to make sure he doesn't have various deficiencies in his core or whatever. Though I don't know what the Miami Heat have, so perhaps this is similar. Highly doubtful theirs is better.

True I did not account for that. I wonder if Pat Riley will convince him to not play though.

As for the rest of it, I think he plays hard (its funny to see this being used as a negative thing in this instance btw) but he really doesn't get injured all that often, at least not in PHX.

Only thing worrisome about Goran in PHX was some ankle problems, if that reoccurs then yea there's a problem especially since like you said Miami doesn't have Aaron Nelson but otherwise, I'm not sure it will be that big of an issue.

I can tell you listen to the BS Report Podcast.

Is this a dig at me saying that my post full of BS or is that an actual Bill Simmons podcast in which they said something similar?

 

[sunsfan88]

Sports Illustrated Trade Grades


Dragic to Miami for two 1st rd picks trade: B

http://www.si.com/nba/2015/02/19/trade-grades-suns-heat-pelicans-goran-dragic-danny-granger


LAL 1st rd pick, Ennis, and Plumlee to Philly/Mil for Brandon Knight trade: B+

http://www.si.com/nba/2015/02/19/nb...ght-michael-carter-williams-suns-bucks-sixers


IT to Boston for Marcus Thornton & Cavs 1st rd pick trade: D

http://www.si.com/nba/2015/02/19/nba-trade-deadline-trade-grades-isaiah-thomas-celtics-suns

 

[Errntknght]

I think the FO saw IT as a disruptive force (as did many in here) and simply wanted to be rid of him, the perfect conditions to make a poor trade. Oh well, they can console themselves by thinking of Isaiah as a late second round pick that they traded for a late first round pick - sounds good on the surface.

 

[devilalum]

Sports Illustrated Trade Grades


Dragic to Miami for two 1st rd picks trade: B

http://www.si.com/nba/2015/02/19/trade-grades-suns-heat-pelicans-goran-dragic-danny-granger


LAL 1st rd pick, Ennis, and Plumlee to Philly/Mil for Brandon Knight trade: B+

http://www.si.com/nba/2015/02/19/nb...ght-michael-carter-williams-suns-bucks-sixers


IT to Boston for Marcus Thornton & Cavs 1st rd pick trade: D

http://www.si.com/nba/2015/02/19/nba-trade-deadline-trade-grades-isaiah-thomas-celtics-suns

This is odd. They gave up nothing but a very reasonable contract to get IT, he didn't work out and they flipped him for a role player and a #1 pick.

I thought this was the best deal of the 3.

 

[sunsfan88]

"With a pick like that our analysis was that we probably weren't going to receive the pick this year. That pushes the pick into next year, the protection drops to three, but I think analyzing the Lakers situation there's pretty high variance there as to what the pick could be. If you ask me how the Lakers are going to be a year from now I have no idea. Obviously, they've struggled some recently, but they're going to have a lot of salary cap space this summer and they're in a market that's traditionally been one of the top draws for free agents.

"We know the risks. The pick next year could be the fourth pick in the draft, it could be the 14th pick in the draft, it could be the 30th pick in the draft. We felt it was the right time to cash it in."

That Lakers pick ended up going to the Philadelphia 76ers in the trade. Interestingly, Sixers GM Sam Hinkie also said the Lakers are probably going to keep that pick this year.

"My guess is the Lakers pick is very unlikely to convey this year for a whole host of reasons," he said at a press conference.

However, he seems to be more bullish than McDonough about it being a high pick in 2016, when the Lakers can only keep it if they're one of the three worst teams in the league.

"Those picks do not move around very much," Hinkie said in explaining why he gave away Michael Carter-Williams in the trade. "It is almost impossibly hard to get your hands on a pick that at least has a chance to be a high lottery pick. It's very rare that they move."

Hinkie is betting that they'll still be bad next year, and that pick will be between No. 4 and No. 10. McDonough is betting that they improve enough to bring that pick into the teens.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/phoenix-suns-gm-explains-why-193214314.html

You can tell Hinkie didn't even think MCW would be able to net a pick like the Lakers pick.

 

[chickenhead]

Is this a dig at me saying that my post full of BS or is that an actual Bill Simmons podcast in which they said something similar?

I didn't make the comment about your post, but Simmons did make the identical point on a recent podcast, so probably the latter.

I was a little surprised myself, but as discussed I don't think it accounts for international play. Goran hasn't been taking Yao-level punishment yet, but I'd imagine he logs a lot of minutes compared to US players.

 

[JS22]

I don't hate trading the LA pick for Knight. Don't love it either. But what are the chances of the 6-10 player picked being as good as Knight already is? Plus, he's only 23. Yeah they're going to have to pay him. But the alternative is paying Goran 18-20m a year. No thanks, and I was a huge Dragic fan until he went drama queen on the Suns.

Plus I think this gives them SOME wiggle room to potentially move Bledsoe in a trade for a legitimate big to pair with Len. Wouldn't be surprised if they had this idea in mind when acquiring Knight.

 

[JCSunsfan]

This is odd. They gave up nothing but a very reasonable contract to get IT, he didn't work out and they flipped him for a role player and a #1 pick.

I thought this was the best deal of the 3.

Grades given by reporters who only read stat sheets.

 

[slinslin]

I don't hate trading the LA pick for Knight. Don't love it either. But what are the chances of the 6-10 player picked being as good as Knight already is? Plus, he's only 23. Yeah they're going to have to pay him. But the alternative is paying Goran 18-20m a year. No thanks, and I was a huge Dragic fan until he went drama queen on the Suns.

Plus I think this gives them SOME wiggle room to potentially move Bledsoe in a trade for a legitimate big to pair with Len. Wouldn't be surprised if they had this idea in mind when acquiring Knight.

I don't believe that one bit.

The truth is that the traditional shooting guard is a dying breed.

Klay Thompson, Wesley Matthews are maybe the only noteworthy traditional shooting guards.

James Harden even plays a lot like a big point guard.

If you have the choice of having a shooting guard that could just shoot and score or have a shooting guard that can shoot, score and create what would you take?

The defensive problems of small shooting guards is also overblown I think. When do you ever really see shooting guards taking advantage of size mismatches?

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't believe that one bit.

The truth is that the traditional shooting guard is a dying breed.

Klay Thompson, Wesley Matthews are maybe the only noteworthy traditional shooting guards.

James Harden even plays a lot like a big point guard.

If you have the choice of having a shooting guard that could just shoot and score or have a shooting guard that can shoot, score and create what would you take?

The defensive problems of small shooting guards is also overblown I think. When do you ever really see shooting guards taking advantage of size mismatches?

It used to happen a lot. But with zone defenses it's not the issue it once was. And James Harden is the prototype for the new shooting guard, offensively at least, because he can not only shoot from outside but he can penetrate and pass. I thought he was overrated the past few years but not any more, he's a legit top 5 player.

Steve

 

[overseascardfan]

Plus I think this gives them SOME wiggle room to potentially move Bledsoe in a trade for a legitimate big to pair with Len. Wouldn't be surprised if they had this idea in mind when acquiring Knight.

This is what I'm hoping the end game is this off season. Didn't a poster here mention coach's reaction from the bench on Bledsoe's constant turnovers and bone headed plays? There probably wasn't a good enough deal at the deadline for Bledsoe but whomever loses out on the Dragic sweepstakes may approach us.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is what I'm hoping the end game is this off season. Didn't a poster here mention coach's reaction from the bench on Bledsoe's constant turnovers and bone headed plays? There probably wasn't a good enough deal at the deadline for Bledsoe but whomever loses out on the Dragic sweepstakes may approach us.

i dont know about that... Bledsoe hasn't exactly looked like a 5 year 70 million dollar player this year which probably hurts his market value for trade.

 

[sunsfan88]

This is what I'm hoping the end game is this off season. Didn't a poster here mention coach's reaction from the bench on Bledsoe's constant turnovers and bone headed plays? There probably wasn't a good enough deal at the deadline for Bledsoe but whomever loses out on the Dragic sweepstakes may approach us.

I like Knight as the better prospect going forward at PG as well if we decide to end the dual PG stuff. He's younger, taller, smarter and already a much better shooter.