Suns @ Trail Blazers 12-6-18

[1tinsoldier]

Every time I watch Ayton I keep going back to that quote of his that I took issue with over the summer. I forget who was interviewing him but at the end, the NBA player with the mic offered him a chance to ask his own question. Ayton's question was "how do you stay motivated once you get paid".

i remember that. my thoughts where:
1. i like his candor. hopefully, it's a casual consideration that won't effect his game
(and i recall he referred to his next contract as the motivating factor)
2. understandable thought from an instant multi-millionaire from a humble background.

in light of his regression, the significance cannot be dismissed.
he likely grew up surrounded by poverty, believing that becoming rich was the ultimate goal. others, like Jordan, Kobe, etc.. seemed motivated by a drive for fame, glory, power, being the best. (all, unhealthy obsessions btw. Regardless of what you do in life, being happy should be the only priority. and the paths to that are more often love, family, friends, creativity)

his age is key. when he gets bored with all the comforts money can buy he'll yearn for other challenges. he'll discover how fulfilling it can be to excel at what he does. master the art of it.

older players can also develop a taste for winning and disdain for losing, and take pay cuts to compete for a championship.

the best coaches can accelerate that process in a young man.
a good coach can get the job done with strong leadership and discipline.
team spirit and chemistry can also bring the best out of a player.

yeah, we're screwed.

 

[WildBB]

i remember that. my thoughts where:
1. i like his candor. hopefully, it's a casual consideration that won't effect his game
(and i recall he referred to his next contract as the motivating factor)
2. understandable thought from an instant multi-millionaire from a humble background.

in light of his regression, the significance cannot be dismissed.
he likely grew up surrounded by poverty, believing that becoming rich was the ultimate goal. others, like Jordan, Kobe, etc.. seemed motivated by a drive for fame, glory, power, being the best. (all, unhealthy obsessions btw. Regardless of what you do in life, being happy should be the only priority. and the paths to that are more often love, family, friends, creativity)

his age is key. when he gets bored with all the comforts money can buy he'll yearn for other challenges. he'll discover how fulfilling it can be to excel at what he does. master the art of it.

older players can also develop a taste for winning and disdain for losing, and take pay cuts to compete for a championship.

the best coaches can accelerate that process in a young man.
a good coach can get the job done with strong leadership and discipline.
team spirit and chemistry can also bring the best out of a player.

yeah, we're screwed.

Or make him earn every bit of playing time to sniff the court. No freebe's for the 1 for now till we see motivation.

 

[Superbone]

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What is it in the waters in Arizona that has their professional athletes just dogging it out there? Kokoskov mentioned something about effort after the last game as well.

I can understand players having a bad day shooting the ball or something but for the ridiculously insane amount of money that they get paid for putting a ball in a hoop, I expect to see effort every single game with an exception here or there for the back to back games and such.

Maybe you can’t coach effort but you can fire guys up. Kokoskov seems a little too even keel for this team. He needs to get on some guys. These guys might need a Thibadeau type.

 

[Yuma]

Translation: I'm desperate. I'd start The Gorilla if he had a good night.

They won't let the Gorilla use the trampoline during the game!

 

[SunnyBaller]

Since we all expect to get blown out my prediction for this game is that it is going to be a 5 point game! They're going to play really good and get all our hopes up just to get blown out next game.

 

[Hoop Head]

It is, and I have no reasonable fix. Like most fans, I always know just what it would take to turn things around for my team but I'm at a loss here. I have no idea how to fix this other than Zion and praying for time. Lots of time.

What's to say Zion doesn't adapt a defeatist attitude like Ayton and others? I know he looks like an exciting player but I haven't seen anything from him that says he's a great competitor. It's harder for a rookie to come in and change the attitude than anyone else. Maybe someone like a Westbrook could come in and light a fire under some of our guys but I really don't believe Zion or anyone else from this draft class can do that. So what next?

 

[Hoop Head]

It looks like Igor will consider starting Melton.



https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...-spirit-after-lopsided-loss-kings/2219934002/

Melton and Bender were the only players in the Kings game with a positive plus/minus. I want to say Melton's was a +21, which is impressive since every other player seemed to be in the negative by double digits. Bender was only in for garbage time so yeah, he gets no credit.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Melton and Bender were the only players in the Kings game with a positive plus/minus. I want to say Melton's was a +21, which is impressive since every other player seemed to be in the negative by double digits. Bender was only in for garbage time so yeah, he gets no credit.

When the other teams "garbage time" players are at the same level as your second team, is it really garbage time?

 

[AzStevenCal]

What's to say Zion doesn't adapt a defeatist attitude like Ayton and others? I know he looks like an exciting player but I haven't seen anything from him that says he's a great competitor. It's harder for a rookie to come in and change the attitude than anyone else. Maybe someone like a Westbrook could come in and light a fire under some of our guys but I really don't believe Zion or anyone else from this draft class can do that. So what next?

So are you suggesting we don't draft a Michael Jordan or Charles Barkley because our team will just ruin them? And no, Zion is not like either of them but for all we know, he could become just as great.

 

[95pro]

Has Holmes lit a fire under anyone on our team? The guy is energy, hustles, never gives up, nice touch and almost always make the smart play.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Has Holmes lit a fire under anyone on our team? The guy is energy, hustles, never gives up, nice touch and almost always make the smart play.

This team was showing signs of improving until the latest round of Warren and Booker injuries, so who knows, maybe he had an impact. But when you're lining up with senior citizens and G League wannabees, you better be a Lebron James level talent if you're hoping to lift your teammates.

 

[Ronin]

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[95pro]

This team was showing signs of improving until the latest round of Warren and Booker injuries, so who knows, maybe he had an impact. But when you're lining up with senior citizens and G League wannabees, you better be a Lebron James level talent if you're hoping to lift your teammates.

That's also true too. Just saying that if this guy, second string material, and the guys at his or below his level can't get fired up to play hard then idk what else...

 

[1tinsoldier]

"can't coach effort"? BS!
it's the coach's job to do just that -- motivate, inspire. use positive and negative reinforcement
motivation is what makes home court an advantage. the crowd motivates their team to increase their effort

you can't force a player to do anything
but you can inspire them to do anything

 

[pokerface]

So are you suggesting we don't draft a Michael Jordan or Charles Barkley because our team will just ruin them? And no, Zion is not like either of them but for all we know, he could become just as great.

I dont know about you but I'm getting a little soured on the draft until we turn our culture around. We've had plenty of drafts and our team has gotten worse. Sarver keeps getting inexperienced head coaches and this is the result. All this talk about "Zion" like we are in a Matrix movie...I'm tired of waiting on a savior rookie....Barkley didn't turn Philly around and the Suns stunk when he got traded.

Would I turn Zion down? No. Do I expect him to save our azzez with pathetic coaching? No.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That's also true too. Just saying that if this guy, second string material, and the guys at his or below his level can't get fired up to play hard then idk what else...

Yeah, I get that but trite as it is, everyone is different.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I dont know about you but I'm getting a little soured on the draft until we turn our culture around. We've had plenty of drafts and our team has gotten worse. Sarver keeps getting inexperienced head coaches and this is the result. All this talk about "Zion" like we are in a Matrix movie...I'm tired of waiting on a savior rookie....Barkley didn't turn Philly around and the Suns stunk when he got traded.

Would I turn Zion down? No. Do I expect him to save our azzez with pathetic coaching? No.

I'm not at all soured on the draft; it's what it's always been, a roll of the dice. But what we're looking at has more to do with the Hinkie approach and yeah, I'm soured on that. There are risks connected to creating a losing environment and we're living with them. We're also living with the fallout from our decision to try and speed up the timeline without any real hope of accomplishing it.

I like Ayton despite his obvious shortcomings but I think Zion is on a completely different level than any player on our roster, including Booker. He won't turn us around immediately, you still need a complete team to compete in this league and we don't have one. But he gets us close and when the kids become adults, we'll have a chance to dominate. We'll have a chance to fail too but we have that now anyway.

 

[SirStefan32]

I wish we could "rent" players for a game or two. I'd love to rent a good point guard and see what we look like with a Kemba or a Goran, or a Jeff running the show for a game or two.

 

[pokerface]

I'm not at all soured on the draft; it's what it's always been, a roll of the dice. But what we're looking at has more to do with the Hinkie approach and yeah, I'm soured on that. There are risks connected to creating a losing environment and we're living with them. We're also living with the fallout from our decision to try and speed up the timeline without any real hope of accomplishing it.

I like Ayton despite his obvious shortcomings but I think Zion is on a completely different level than any player on our roster, including Booker. He won't turn us around immediately, you still need a complete team to compete in this league and we don't have one. But he gets us close and when the kids become adults, we'll have a chance to dominate. We'll have a chance to fail too but we have that now anyway.

Ok but they changed the draft odds. What is our odds of getting Zion if the season ended today? Still a long shot. Besides, we've had about 10 years of drafts and we don't seem one inch better in the win column.

I think we need to start turning this team around "enough" to attract free agents. I'm tired of our porus defense and we need players and coaches held accountable.

 

[mjb21aztd]

is Booker and Warren back for this gm?

would be nice to see suns win a few for confidence...

but I guess the shining light of a horrible season would hopefully be getting zion in draft to pair with Booker, ayton and warren.

was expecting a bit more than 4 wins by this point very frustrating to be a fan of any Arizona team this yr .

 

[AzStevenCal]

Ok but they changed the draft odds. What is our odds of getting Zion if the season ended today? Still a long shot. Besides, we've had about 10 years of drafts and we don't seem one inch better in the win column.

I think we need to start turning this team around "enough" to attract free agents. I'm tired of our porus defense and we need players and coaches held accountable.

Our odds for Zion are not good, 14% is the best we can hope for. But the Hinkie approach means to lose and keep losing until you get really lucky. We started it, abandoning it now puts us in start over territory as it's clear we haven't found our superstar yet. I guess I'm okay with that too but I see no chance for major improvement in the near future. We need our young guys to become real NBA players and we need to add more talent.

 

[pokerface]

Our odds for Zion are not good, 14% is the best we can hope for. But the Hinkie approach means to lose and keep losing until you get really lucky. We started it, abandoning it now puts us in start over territory as it's clear we haven't found our superstar yet. I guess I'm okay with that too but I see no chance for major improvement in the near future. We need our young guys to become real NBA players and we need to add more talent.

I get the Hinkie approach but they changed the rules because of him. Yeah let's hope we get lucky in the draft...let's hope we get lucky with a coach too.

 

[95pro]

If I were looking at the Suns team impartially, my first take is to think they have given up on their coach. Certainly the Suns are bad but they play so passively it's easy to reach this conclusion.

Of course there are other options, there might be a player(s) poisoning the chemistry on the team.

Also there could be some kickback from the team and coaching staff about the firing of McDonough. We know very little about the firing and what transpired behind closed doors.

Until more is learned we can only guess but it's more than a point guard issue.

IMO, pure speculation and reading into nothing here, BUT...

I feel some of the same since the start of the season. Chandler wanted out, personnel exchanged, coaching changed but there's still an underlying issue somewhere.

New players, new coaching and supposedly more talent on paper than last years team but we are underperforming.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I get the Hinkie approach but they changed the rules because of him. Yeah let's hope we get lucky in the draft...let's hope we get lucky with a coach too.

Yes they did but I don't think that really changes much. You still have to get lucky enough so that you'd have a top pick in a draft with great players. Same still applies. That approach calls for losing until you no longer need to lose, not lose until you get the number one pick because there's no guarantee that the top player you get is actually a generational star.

We probably should not have gone down the tanking path (except in season closeouts). But since we did, we can either abandon it, start all over again from a lower spot than when we first opted to go all Hinkie or we can let it play out. Keep being bad until you get the game changer you're in search of. The Hinkie approach isn't designed so you can get a Jamal Murray or Damian Lillard, the goal is an Anthony Davis or Lebron James type star.

 

[1tinsoldier]

i can still look forward to the draft, even though the odds of getting Zion are very low.
it's true that without a good coach the impact of the draft is mitigated
but, like the market makers with their stock market investments
i've already baked in that Igor is gone within a year

unfortunately, we also have to bake in that Sarver will pick Igor's replacement.