Suns updates and discussion for the 2019-20 season

[Cheesebeef]

I usually try to cut young players some slack, but his interior defense is really atrocious--especially help defense. I am not saying anything new here. We all know it.

Just watch nearly every Nugget offensive highlight in this and pay attention to Ayton's, defense (its a stretch to call it that).

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my lord... I had to stop watching after 1:30 minutes.

I'm starting to worry this team will never be a true contender if Ayton and Booker are it's best players. To have your best players BOTH be pretty one-dimensional... basically two guys who can light it up offensively, but aren't great creators and are below average on D (and that's being kind) sets a terrible tone for the rest of the team. EVERYONE else needs to be a lockdown defender to make up for a wing and C who can't guard a chair.

 

[Hoop Head]

It would be great if the press treated Ayton like Booker as far as calling him out for empty stats, being a guy who puts up numbers on a bad team, and how he'll never be the #1 or #2 option for a playoff team. I'm not sure if that would get him to quit joking around and act more serious but also get him to play with a chip on his shoulder.

Thankfully we have Booker. With Booker here we don't need Ayton to be the centerpiece of the team and there's also the chance that Booker can get Ayton to light that fire. You can tell that Booker wants to win, badly. You don't see that with Ayton though. He's been lucky enough as a collegiate player and in high school that his presence gave his team a big advantage but now that he's in the NBA, where his size and physique isn't that special, he needs to earn every win on the court. We'll see.

 

[BC867]

He really is a soft 3/4 playing center.

Why doesn't Suns management see that and give him a full shot at Power Forward,
as some of us have been advocating, with a power Center next to him?

Ayton, with his height, doesn't even dominate jumping Center to start the game.

There is the key word. He is not a dominant Center.

To answer my own question, the Suns have hardly ever featured a dominant Center.

 

[Mainstreet]

Suns waive David Kramer, Norense Odiase and Tariq Owens.


Kellan Olson‏Verified account @KellanOlson

Suns announce they've waived David Kramer, Norense Odiase and Tariq Owens.

2:08 PM - 15 Oct 2019


Kellan Olson‏Verified account @KellanOlson

All 3 players were on Exhibit 10 deals. That means if they make it through waivers and don't go overseas, they earn a bonus from the Suns if they stay with the NAZ Suns for at least 60 days.

2:16 PM - 15 Oct 2019

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns roster stands at 16 counting Jared Harper who is on a two-way contract.

https://www.nba.com/suns/press-release/suns-waive-kramer-odiase-owens

 

[JCSunsfan]

my lord... I had to stop watching after 1:30 minutes.

I'm starting to worry this team will never be a true contender if Ayton and Booker are it's best players. To have your best players BOTH be pretty one-dimensional... basically two guys who can light it up offensively, but aren't great creators and are below average on D (and that's being kind) sets a terrible tone for the rest of the team. EVERYONE else needs to be a lockdown defender to make up for a wing and C who can't guard a chair.

I kind of give rookies a pass. But Ayton has a year under his belt now. I hate to say it, but he might be the worst defensive center I have ever seen. He is not only not motivated, he is clueless about help defense.

If he were not the #1 pick, I might consider starting Baynes or Kaminsky over him. He needs to sit on the bench until he gives a crap.

 

[Proximo]

I kind of give rookies a pass. But Ayton has a year under his belt now. I hate to say it, but he might be the worst defensive center I have ever seen. He is not only not motivated, he is clueless about help defense.

If he were not the #1 pick, I might consider starting Baynes or Kaminsky over him. He needs to sit on the bench until he gives a crap.

I am willing to give him a pass for the first month of the season or so.

I don't think he was coached correctly last season. If we don't see much improvement by then, then I may agree we have a problem.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I kind of give rookies a pass. But Ayton has a year under his belt now. I hate to say it, but he might be the worst defensive center I have ever seen. He is not only not motivated, he is clueless about help defense.

If he were not the #1 pick, I might consider starting Baynes or Kaminsky over him. He needs to sit on the bench until he gives a crap.

Wow, and I thought I was overreacting? New teammates, new coach, new system and limited minutes in the preseason is probably not the time to form concrete opinions IMO. Ayton has been a decent man defender on the blocks and a good man defender in space but yes, he's clueless when it comes to help defense.

Since we've had more than our share of big men that were slow as molasses, soft as tissue, foul prone, couldn't jump to save their lives AND matched Ayton on the clueless front, I have to strongly disagree with your statement that he might be the worst defensive center you've ever seen. I suggest you've watched far too many Suns games for that to be anything other than frustration talking. Not that I don't understand the frustration - in truth this guy ought to be the premier defender and a nightmare for opposing teams on offense and that seems highly unlikely with what we've seen so far.

 

[Phrazbit]

This is preseason... guys are playing in like 2nd gear.

The hot takes from exhibition garbage are always pretty wild.

Ayton needs more fire in his belly, that was apparent last year, but I don’t care about aggression and physical play in games that mean less than a wet fart.

 

[Chaplin]

This is preseason... guys are playing in like 2nd gear.

The hot takes from exhibition garbage are always pretty wild.

Ayton needs more fire in his belly, that was apparent last year, but I don’t care about aggression and physical play in games that mean less than a wet fart.

Correct. I find it interesting that we have a bad performance and we’re a laughing stock. We win and it’s the other team who doesn’t care. The Suns are the only team trying, right?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Correct. I find it interesting that we have a bad performance and we’re a laughing stock. We win and it’s the other team who doesn’t care. The Suns are the only team trying, right?

I am talking about one player, not the team. And I am talking about half of his game.

Ayton has played some decent defense at times. Usually it’s when he is covering a star player. He has had good defensive games against Giannis and LeBron. But his interior defense is as bad or worse than I have ever seen. I don’t think I am over reacting. I am not emotional as I say it. I am truly trying to think of anyone who is worse and I cannot think of one. We have had some limited centers on this team over the last thirty years, but never with this lack of effort or understanding. It’s kind of shocking.

Overall, I am really liking this team. I am not sure how Ayton will continue to do this poorly with Baynes here pushing him around in practice. Even Kaminski is a better defender.

 

[Phrazbit]

I am talking about one player, not the team. And I am talking about half of his game.

Ayton has played some decent defense at times. Usually it’s when he is covering a star player. He has had good defensive games against Giannis and LeBron. But his interior defense is as bad or worse than I have ever seen. I don’t think I am over reacting. I am not emotional as I say it. I am truly trying to think of anyone who is worse and I cannot think of one. We have had some limited centers on this team over the last thirty years, but never with this lack of effort or understanding. It’s kind of shocking.

Overall, I am really liking this team. I am not sure how Ayton will continue to do this poorly with Baynes here pushing him around in practice. Even Kaminski is a better defender.

It’s preseason.

Ayton was looking much improved on D towards the end of last season... I don’t give a squirt about defensive intensity in preseason.

Develop some chemistry, don’t get hurt... that is really all I hope to get out of these trash games.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Why doesn't Suns management see that and give him a full shot at Power Forward,
as some of us have been advocating, with a power Center next to him?

Ayton, with his height, doesn't even dominate jumping Center to start the game.

There is the key word. He is not a dominant Center.

To answer my own question, the Suns have hardly ever featured a dominant Center.

Honestly I don’t get you. He’s the most physically talented specimen we have ever had. He averaged 16/10 as a rookie. He’s still a kid in age and attitude. You groom him to be a monster. You don’t acquiesce and allow him to be a baby. This attitude is shocking coming from you of all people.

 

[BC867]

Honestly I don’t get you. He’s the most physically talented specimen we have ever had. He averaged 16/10 as a rookie. He’s still a kid in age and attitude. You groom him to be a monster. You don’t acquiesce and allow him to be a baby. This attitude is shocking coming from you of all people.

Ouchie, let's skip the dramatics. I am not "grooming him to be a monster" or calling him a "baby",
although other posters have called him that.

My posts regard finding the best position for him to excel. Specifically, Power Forward (rather than
Center), where he played before joining the Suns.

That is based on observations. First, that he hasn't played good defense against bulkier Centers.
Second, that he has not shown skills on pick-and-rolls from the high post to be in a good shooting
position in the paint. Third, that he has not attempted one free throw as a Center during pre-season.

I think the best combination for the Suns would be a role-playing Center with Ayton at Power Forward
for starters' minutes. Put players in the best position to succeed.

Especially on a team whose stars are clearly strong on offense and weak on defense.

I was thrilled that Ayton averaged 16/10 as a rookie. But the top stats that I root for are the Suns'
final score and won-loss record.

I am certainly not anti-Ayton. I just want to see him in a role in which he can best help the Suns.

 

[Hoop Head]

Ouchie, let's skip the dramatics. I am not "grooming him to be a monster" or calling him a "baby",
although other posters have called him that.

My posts regard finding the best position for him to excel. Specifically, Power Forward (rather than
Center), where he played before joining the Suns.

That is based on observations. First, that he hasn't played good defense against bulkier Centers.
Second, that he has not shown skills on pick-and-rolls from the high post to be in a good shooting
position in the paint. Third, that he has not attempted one free throw as a Center during pre-season.

I think the best combination for the Suns would be a role-playing Center with Ayton at Power Forward
for starters' minutes. Put players in the best position to succeed.

Especially on a team whose stars are clearly strong on offense and weak on defense.

I was thrilled that Ayton averaged 16/10 as a rookie. But the top stats that I root for are the Suns'
final score and won-loss record.

I am certainly not anti-Ayton. I just want to see him in a role in which he can best help the Suns.

I don't think that's right. I know he played with another Center in college but I wouldn't classify how he played as a Power Forward. I think Arizona ran more of a 2 Center lineup than having Ayton play PF. He wasn't a full time PF at Arizona as he was the Center for them whenever he was on the court without Ristic, and he averaged 6 minutes more a game than Ristic. They didn't share the court for all of Ristic's 27 minute average either, so Ayton was playing a good amount as the lone Center. He really didn't play different compared to when Ristic was out there either.

As far as saying he's not that good at the pick and roll from the high post, that isn't something that changing his position from C to PF will change. I don't think his struggles in that role are his fault either. He's been fine as the pick setter, it's the other guy who has been a problem and I think most would agree. The P&R with Rubio this preseason has looked exactly how you'd hope it would because Rubio can put the ball in the right spot for Ayton to do something with it.

I think that's just the start of it though. If the Suns tried to turn him into a PF then they're making a huge mistake. It wouldn't be putting him in the best position to succeed so much as accepting his shortcomings and giving up on his development as a 7'1" 260 pound physical specimen.

How would you ask him to improve going forward if you're willing to give up on him as a Center, that would be giving up on him as the pick man in the P&R, no longer being a rim protector, and also not playing in the post as much on offense? Just get him to work on his outside shot so he can jack 3's like Channing Frye? Moving him to PF now is saying that he's developed into all he can and they're happy with the results despite him being just 21 years old.

 

[Phrazbit]

My posts regard finding the best position for him to excel. Specifically, Power Forward (rather than
Center), where he played before joining the Suns.

That is based on observations. First, that he hasn't played good defense against bulkier Centers.
Second, that he has not shown skills on pick-and-rolls from the high post to be in a good shooting
position in the paint. Third, that he has not attempted one free throw as a Center during pre-season.

He played power forward at Arizona out of nessesity, not because it was his best fit.

Of your observations.

First, true, he didn't play great defense against centers, he also didn't play great defense on the perimeter in college. He HAS played great defense when he is engaged, the Suns need to figure out how to get him engaged.

Second... he absolutely HAS shown ability in the paint, he has shown flat out elite ability in the paint, there were very few players in the league last season and almost no one in league history who was as efficient as him in the paint at his age. This point is a complete and utter falsehood.

Third... I don't give a crap, it's the preseason. If he isn't drawing fouls in games that are worth more than pigeons taint I might sweat it, and regardless, the mere notion that drawing fouls is somehow less meaningful to power forwards than centers is also a total falsehood. IF Ayton isn't getting to the line enough at center then there is absolutely zero logic that says a position change will help him or help the team, it would merely be coddling a bad habit we need to break him of.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't think that's right. I know he played with another Center in college but I wouldn't classify how he played as a Power Forward. I think Arizona ran more of a 2 Center lineup than having Ayton play PF. He wasn't a full time PF at Arizona as he was the Center for them whenever he was on the court without Ristic, and he averaged 6 minutes more a game than Ristic. They didn't share the court for all of Ristic's 27 minute average either, so Ayton was playing a good amount as the lone Center. He really didn't play different compared to when Ristic was out there either.

As far as saying he's not that good at the pick and roll from the high post, that isn't something that changing his position from C to PF will change. I don't think his struggles in that role are his fault either. He's been fine as the pick setter, it's the other guy who has been a problem and I think most would agree. The P&R with Rubio this preseason has looked exactly how you'd hope it would because Rubio can put the ball in the right spot for Ayton to do something with it.

I think that's just the start of it though. If the Suns tried to turn him into a PF then they're making a huge mistake. It wouldn't be putting him in the best position to succeed so much as accepting his shortcomings and giving up on his development as a 7'1" 260 pound physical specimen.

How would you ask him to improve going forward if you're willing to give up on him as a Center, that would be giving up on him as the pick man in the P&R, no longer being a rim protector, and also not playing in the post as much on offense? Just get him to work on his outside shot so he can jack 3's like Channing Frye? Moving him to PF now is saying that he's developed into all he can and they're happy with the results despite him being just 21 years old.

Agree with all of this.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don't think that's right. I know he played with another Center in college but I wouldn't classify how he played as a Power Forward. I think Arizona ran more of a 2 Center lineup than having Ayton play PF. He wasn't a full time PF at Arizona as he was the Center for them whenever he was on the court without Ristic, and he averaged 6 minutes more a game than Ristic. They didn't share the court for all of Ristic's 27 minute average either, so Ayton was playing a good amount as the lone Center. He really didn't play different compared to when Ristic was out there either.

As far as saying he's not that good at the pick and roll from the high post, that isn't something that changing his position from C to PF will change. I don't think his struggles in that role are his fault either. He's been fine as the pick setter, it's the other guy who has been a problem and I think most would agree. The P&R with Rubio this preseason has looked exactly how you'd hope it would because Rubio can put the ball in the right spot for Ayton to do something with it.

I think that's just the start of it though. If the Suns tried to turn him into a PF then they're making a huge mistake. It wouldn't be putting him in the best position to succeed so much as accepting his shortcomings and giving up on his development as a 7'1" 260 pound physical specimen.

How would you ask him to improve going forward if you're willing to give up on him as a Center, that would be giving up on him as the pick man in the P&R, no longer being a rim protector, and also not playing in the post as much on offense? Just get him to work on his outside shot so he can jack 3's like Channing Frye? Moving him to PF now is saying that he's developed into all he can and they're happy with the results despite him being just 21 years old.

He did not play the offensive version of an NBA power forward in college. He played very similar to a center in college on offense. On defense, he defended power forwards. Ayton seems much more comfortable defending more mobile bigs out at the three point line than he does guarding the rim.

Yes. Its preseason. But it is also a pattern. Our other players are acting like they care, why not Ayton?

 

[BC867]

I don't think that's right. I know he played with another Center in college but I wouldn't classify how he played as a Power Forward. I think Arizona ran more of a 2 Center lineup than having Ayton play PF. He wasn't a full time PF at Arizona as he was the Center for them whenever he was on the court without Ristic, and he averaged 6 minutes more a game than Ristic. They didn't share the court for all of Ristic's 27 minute average either, so Ayton was playing a good amount as the lone Center. He really didn't play different compared to when Ristic was out there either.

As far as saying he's not that good at the pick and roll from the high post, that isn't something that changing his position from C to PF will change. I don't think his struggles in that role are his fault either. He's been fine as the pick setter, it's the other guy who has been a problem and I think most would agree. The P&R with Rubio this preseason has looked exactly how you'd hope it would because Rubio can put the ball in the right spot for Ayton to do something with it.

I think that's just the start of it though. If the Suns tried to turn him into a PF then they're making a huge mistake. It wouldn't be putting him in the best position to succeed so much as accepting his shortcomings and giving up on his development as a 7'1" 260 pound physical specimen.

How would you ask him to improve going forward if you're willing to give up on him as a Center, that would be giving up on him as the pick man in the P&R, no longer being a rim protector, and also not playing in the post as much on offense? Just get him to work on his outside shot so he can jack 3's like Channing Frye? Moving him to PF now is saying that he's developed into all he can and they're happy with the results despite him being just 21 years old.

Thank you for the details in your point of view.

I hope it works out.

 

[Ronin]

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[Mainstreet]

I hope some fans get a chance to listen. The programming is from 6-8 p.m. tonight. It sounds interesting.


Kellan Olson‏Verified account @KellanOlson

Hi friends! I’ll be on @AZSports talking Suns with @JonBloom from 6-8p tonight right after @BurnsAndGambo. We’ve got a stacked lineup of guests with Monty Williams, James Jones, Kelly Oubre Jr., Mikal Bridges and @LindseySmithAZ. Tune in! It will be fun, I swear!

2:07 PM - 16 Oct 2019

 

[Mainstreet]

Here are some predictions for the Suns 2019-20 season.

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[Phrazbit]

I just bought tickets for opening night, hope I bring em good luck. I'll be wearing my old school Western font sun burst shirt.

I think they've lowered ticket prices, they are crazy cheap.

 

[Ronin]

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[Hoop Head]

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Isn't it odd for the preseason to end a little more than a full week before the season starts? I can see giving teams 3-4 days to get ready but 9? That's a bit much.

I am glad we have a coach who knows how to run a practice here for that extended break. I know Igor, Watson, and Hornacek all took hits from the players and media about practices being disorganized. Nothing like that has been said about Monty and since he was a head coach for a couple of years, he knows what the job entails.