Suns updates and discussion for the 2023-24 season

[Mainstreet]

Other than Eric Gordon, perhaps Thad Young? That would kind of explain why he didn't see playing time.

Another possibility is Eubanks. I know that seems odd but the reports about him not returning next season came out almost immediately after elimination. That could be why. Something there seems odd.

Good thought about Eubanks. It makes a lot of sense, he could have been the player.

I'm glad somebody had the guts to take on the team's lack of effort. What does that say about the Suns FO if this is accurate and he is not coming back because of this?

 

[Mainstreet]

This sounds like gobbledygook.

Was Haliburton and other point guards not the right fit for the Suns?

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[Suns_fan69]

Would it be so hard to just take SOME accountability?

"The team that we put together didn't pan out the way we thought, and some flaws that we thought we could gameplan around proved to be difficult. We don't have a ton of flexibility because of the 2nd apron, but rest assured we will try, to the best of our ability, to bring a more balanced roster to the season next year."

There.

 

[Mainstreet]

Would it be so hard to just take SOME accountability?

"The team that we put together didn't pan out the way we thought, and some flaws that we thought we could gameplan around proved to be difficult. We don't have a ton of flexibility because of the 2nd apron, but rest assured we will try, to the best of our ability, to bring a more balanced roster to the season next year."

There.

The more I think about the Suns press conference, it felt like a chest thumping session saying we were right then, and we are still right now.

 

[Raindog]

This sounds like gobbledygook.

Was Haliburton and other point guards not the right fit for the Suns?

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I can see why Ishbia probably likes James Jones. JJ is a master BS-er.

 

[Mainstreet]

I can see why Ishbia probably likes James Jones. JJ is a master BS-er.

Yeah, like IT was a great fit.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The more I think about the Suns press conference, it felt like a chest thumping session saying we were right then, and we are still right now.

Yeah. These guys sound certifiably insane.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I can see why Ishbia probably likes James Jones. JJ is a master BS-er.

Is he though? I think as a BS-er, he’s pretty terrible.he just sounds like a blowhard with zero self-awareness.

 

[Raindog]

Is he though? I think as a BS-er, he’s pretty terrible.he just sounds like a blowhard with zero self-awareness.

Well, he is definitely those two things, as well. But he's also a fast talking salesman, as they say. He might also do well in say, the mortgage business. Hopefully, Ishbia will realize his talents are being wasted as a basketball executive and find room for him in his other business instead.

 

[clyde2tw]

Conceptually, it may be right to do it without a true PG. Phil Jackson's championship teams never had one. But you have to have better systems to make the offense work, and to defend well enought like MJ's Bulls team. And it'd be at least better to have SG/SM with a PG passing skill like Harden or Pippen. Suns had none of them. At least Vogel was not the coach creative enough to make this unique unconventional roster fit together. It's odd that Vogel was willing to experiment with all the failed projects from KBD, Goodwin, Yuta, to Metu, but never gave Okogie and Little playing time in the 2nd half of the season, not to mention Roddy and Saben. It's obvious these young guys were needed for defense after the young legs from OKC and Rockets abused our slow shooters, as later we were not surprisingly abused by Ant, MD, Alexander-Walker at will. Did Vogel not anticipate that he had to resort to Okogie and Little somewhen in the POs, and heavily so to survive?

 

[Covert Rain]

Conceptually, it may be right to do it without a true PG. Phil Jackson's championship teams never had one. But you have to have better systems to make the offense work, and to defend well enought like MJ's Bulls team. And it'd be at least better to have SG/SM with a PG passing skill like Harden or Pippen. Suns had none of them. At least Vogel was not the coach creative enough to make this unique unconventional roster fit together. It's odd that Vogel was willing to experiment with all the failed projects from KBD, Goodwin, Yuta, to Metu, but never gave Okogie and Little playing time in the 2nd half of the season, not to mention Roddy and Saben. It's obvious these young guys were needed for defense after the young legs from OKC and Rockets abused our slow shooters, as later we were not surprisingly abused by Ant, MD, Alexander-Walker at will. Did Vogel not anticipate that he had to resort to Okogie and Little somewhen in the POs, and heavily so to survive?

To be fair, the Bulls also had a once in a generation player in MJ that could handle the ball like no other. We don't have that.

 

[Yuma]

He has a point but he doesn't go far enough. Coaching, at least on the Suns, was definitely a problem. It's not just the players -- the coach needs to put his players in a position to succeed. Period. And frequently, Vogel didn't do that. Let's take the 4th quarter woes for an example -- we saw it time and time again, we would play well for 3 quarters and then continually implode in the 4th quarter. Why? Anyone with two eyes could see that it was because Book and KD would consistently change the way they play the game and become ISO players. Every time we had a bad 4th quarter is because we went away from what was successful earlier in the game.

Now, if we continued doing that same thing with no discernible change in the way 4th quarters were played, whose responsibility is it to remove that tendency to ISO? It's partially on the players, sure, but you've got a couple things here -- 1) the players don't trust their teammates in those minutes, and 2) the Coach is not stepping in and stopping it. The first one is fixable by having more time on the floor, the 2nd is hard to fix if the players don't respect anything coach would draw up. In that case, the coach is responsible -- he's responsible for not holding his players accountable and forcing the issue. If Vogel (and by extension JJ) are ok with our star players to just ignore the coaches in late game situations (with NO attempt to actually rectify it), then why have Vogel and JJ at all? And if Vogel isn't vocal enough to hold the guys accountable and force the issue, well that is the very definition of having the wrong coach for this group.

So Barkley is only half right -- the players share the blame, but there is no room to give Vogel a free pass here. To do so reeks of ignorance, which is hard to believe coming from such a veteran player. Say what you will about Barkley, but he made the most of his time in the league, and was a coach killer in his own right.

I think it's a tendency of a false philosophy. The Suns suffer under, just get us to the fourth quarter, then Beal, KD, and Book can do their thing and carry the team. There's been quotes from the players about those guys closing out games. The coaches have said stuff like, we get to the fourth quarter and I like our chances with KD, Book, and Beal. They are all under the delusion that it's not a team effiort to close out games.

 

[Yuma]

To be fair, the Bulls also had a once in a generation player in MJ that could handle the ball like no other. We don't have that.

His handles are probably still vastly superior to KD and Booker, plus the refs let him brush defenders away with his off hand!

 

[GatorAZ]

To be fair, the Bulls also had a once in a generation player in MJ that could handle the ball like no other. We don't have that.

Pippen was their primary distributor so they really had two of them. The last two assist leaders on title teams were Jokic and Draymond. It just depends on the team and system. I don’t think Vogel is a bad coach because whoever the next coach is has to deal with ISO guys who want to do their own thing whereas CP3 was basically player/coach. I just don’t see a significant upgrade in offensive efficiency unless Harden comes in for the minimum.

 

[Phrazbit]

Conceptually, it may be right to do it without a true PG. Phil Jackson's championship teams never had one. But you have to have better systems to make the offense work, and to defend well enought like MJ's Bulls team. And it'd be at least better to have SG/SM with a PG passing skill like Harden or Pippen. Suns had none of them. At least Vogel was not the coach creative enough to make this unique unconventional roster fit together. It's odd that Vogel was willing to experiment with all the failed projects from KBD, Goodwin, Yuta, to Metu, but never gave Okogie and Little playing time in the 2nd half of the season, not to mention Roddy and Saben. It's obvious these young guys were needed for defense after the young legs from OKC and Rockets abused our slow shooters, as later we were not surprisingly abused by Ant, MD, Alexander-Walker at will. Did Vogel not anticipate that he had to resort to Okogie and Little somewhen in the POs, and heavily so to survive?

They still had a point guard on the court though, they didn’t run out there with a butt load of shooting guards.

BJ Armstrong, Kerr, Harper, Fisher… those teams all still featured point guards, they just might not have been the primary ball handler.

 

[Cheesebeef]

They still had a point guard on the court though, they didn’t run out there with a butt load of shooting guards.

BJ Armstrong, Kerr, Harper, Fisher… those teams are still featured point guards, they just might not have been the primary ball handler.

The Suns no PG plan was a disaster but come on, Phraz. Fisher was an undersized combo guard who was best used as a spot up shooter, averaging only 3 assists per game in both of his stints with the Lakers. He couldn’t run an offense to save his life. Kobe, Lamar ran the 2nd Lakers title teams and everything went through Kobe/Shaq on the first title teams.

And Kerr was nothing more than an undersized SG who only averaged a meager 2 assists per game. His job was to get open and shoot threes, doing almost zero ball handling or setting up the offense.

And Harper DEFINITELY wasn’t a PG anymore than Booker or Beal were PGs. He was always a 6’6 shooting guard for Cleveland and just because he played next to Michael didn’t make him a PG.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So the two guys that got there halfway through the season? Would make more sense if it was someone who had to go through this crap all season.

I agree but most of the bench was shipped out. Don’t see bol bol having the balls balls to do it and Gordon was just as unexcitable as Durant. Maybe eubanks? Can’t see it being little or roddy too young.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

EG spouted off to the press about his role with the team earlier in the season. Wouldn’t surprise me if he did something similar in the locker room.

That seemed more selfish and passive aggressive. This sounds like a leader calling out the team.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

They still had a point guard on the court though, they didn’t run out there with a butt load of shooting guards.

BJ Armstrong, Kerr, Harper, Fisher… those teams all still featured point guards, they just might not have been the primary ball handler.

Harper was a pure shooting guard.

The other guys played as undersized shooting guards. We saw what happened when they got layer point on other teams…underperformance.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The Suns no PG plan was a disaster but come on, Phraz. Fisher was an undersized combo guard who was best used as a spot up shooter, averaging only 3 assists per game in both of his stints with the Lakers. He couldn’t run an offense to save his life. Kobe, Lamar ran the 2nd Lakers title teams and everything went through Kobe/Shaq on the first title teams.

And Kerr was nothing more than an undersized SG who only averaged a meager 2 assists per game. His job was to get open and shoot threes, doing almost zero ball handling or setting up the offense.

And Harper DEFINITELY wasn’t a PG anymore than Booker or Beal were PGs. He was always a 6’6 shooting guard for Cleveland and just because he played next to Michael didn’t make him a PG.

Borg

 

[Phrazbit]

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I use this same logic when thinking about ordering another bourbon at 1am. "That is a problem for future Phrazbit, that sucker".

 

[Phrazbit]

The Suns no PG plan was a disaster but come on, Phraz. Fisher was an undersized combo guard who was best used as a spot up shooter, averaging only 3 assists per game in both of his stints with the Lakers. He couldn’t run an offense to save his life. Kobe, Lamar ran the 2nd Lakers title teams and everything went through Kobe/Shaq on the first title teams.

And Kerr was nothing more than an undersized SG who only averaged a meager 2 assists per game. His job was to get open and shoot threes, doing almost zero ball handling or setting up the offense.

And Harper DEFINITELY wasn’t a PG anymore than Booker or Beal were PGs. He was always a 6’6 shooting guard for Cleveland and just because he played next to Michael didn’t make him a PG.

Harper was a pure shooting guard.

The other guys played as undersized shooting guards. We saw what happened when they got layer point on other teams…underperformance.

I am not talking about having a star out there.

Those guys were dudes who could be trusted to handle the ball, play within the system and (other than Kerr) be decent at defending the point of attack. We should be able to find someone like that, that this front office doesn't seem remotely interested in searching for that player, or any kind of ball handler, is appalling. They seem intent on making the offense MORE reliant on Durant, who is absolute dog crap at creating for anyone other than himself, and Booker, who can create for others but his game suffers across the board when tasked with running the show on offense.

 

[Phrazbit]

For the previous 3 years Booker was one of the best players in the league off the ball, especially getting the ball when coming from an off ball screen and either attacking or pulling up. He was lethal in those sets. This year that feature basically was abandoned from the offense.

We couldn't run them because more often than not Booker had the ball or Durant did, and Durant is a sloppy passer and when he has the ball seemingly all motion in the offense comes to a halt.

The other decent passer in the offense was Nurk, but he's also the only one who can set a half decent screen, which makes running a motion and screening offense impossible when no one moves and hardly anyone can set a screen.

 

[Yuma]

We need a backup big, not necessarily a center, who can be on the floor with Nurkic. Or when we go with KD at Center or PF, that guy can play Kat/Ant Man and vice versa with KD. Then when the switch comes, it's a better defense. McDaniel just needs someone who will stay on him and not help out. Okogie could have done that. Maybe Beal. They kept wandering away from him and leaving him with wide open threes. What's so hard about saying "I got this guy." Then you trust your teammates to do 4 on 4 defense and they can switch, etc. Of course you have to recover and stay on him on screens, but don't make things easy on him. Jeez.

 

[Covert Rain]

For the previous 3 years Booker was one of the best players in the league off the ball, especially getting the ball when coming from an off ball screen and either attacking or pulling up. He was lethal in those sets. This year that feature basically was abandoned from the offense.

We couldn't run them because more often than not Booker had the ball or Durant did, and Durant is a sloppy passer and when he has the ball seemingly all motion in the offense comes to a halt.

The other decent passer in the offense was Nurk, but he's also the only one who can set a half decent screen, which makes running a motion and screening offense impossible when no one moves and hardly anyone can set a screen.

Book is hot or cold passing as well. He blew away his turnover totals compared to last year (which was the best in his career) and that is with Beal taking over ball handling duties the last part of the season or it would have been 2018-2020 turnover Book all over again. Vogel finally admitted this wasn't a good passing team. That isn't magically going away either. We desperately need a PG and if James Jones doesn't do something? The Suns are going to "great" again next year.