Suns vs Lakers

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Joe Mama


BTW I know many of you probably remember the way Michael Jordan used to use his off arm to push away defenders he was posting up. But what the hell where the referees thinking tonight allowing Shaquille O'Neal to stiff arm the double team with his off arm. I was going nuts yelling at the TV. It happened at least 3 times tonight. It happened more than once to Amare Stoudemire, and I think the other time it was Joe Johnson or Shawn Marion. Please tell me someone else saw that? He would have the ball in one hand looking for a place to pass while his other arm was straight out holding off the double team.

It was only 3? He was doing that EVERY time we brought a double team over. I kept thinking about why that isn't a foul. But then you realize, it's Shaq, and the refs certainly don't want him to leave the game. Funny thing, though, is that both Kobe and Shaq got technicals tonight...

 

[NDSunsfan]

Aside from slowing down the momentum, I guess I don't see how a TO loses a game? Every team takes too many TO's in the NBA. These guys are grown men who play bball for a living, I can't imagine how they need to sit down and discuss every possession in the last 90 seconds of every game. I didn't think the TO did much. If they don't take the TO then, the Lakers take one on the next possession.

Amare was on the bench because he couldn't stop anyone, JJ did a good job on Kobe, and the Lakers were playing Shaq and 4 outside players (I don't want to get into a 75 post thread about whether or not a player is a guard or not --bowen/jackson :smile.

Marbury is a superstar. The crowd was oohing and ahhing a lot down the stretch--he was on fire. I thought his pass to give JJ the last shot was fine. He just missed the shot. I also agree with putting Langhi on the floor at the end. If Steph can't get a shot, the only available option was an outside jumper.

I'm really down on Penny right now. He's so nonchalant with the ball. Whoever said he lost the game is going a bit too far, but he sure didn't help.

I don't think the coaching lost this game for the Suns. Kobe and Shaq had a little to do with it.

For those of you who say we need to get rid of FJ, do we need to get rid of all the assistants too? Because they must be as clueless as him or their opinion means nothing in which case they don't need to be kept around because they aren't doing anything productive.

 

[cheng]

One thing I have problem with FJ is that he doesn't create matchup problems, instead he tries to match up against other teams lineup. So the team is usually one step behind and would completely collapese if his counter didn't work. Put Stoudemire on the floor, let him learn through mistakes since he is our future and sadly we just don't have anyone (not even close) better than him currently.

Assistants mostly help preparing games and they can only give their opinions. They don't decide when to call a timeout, how a play is drew or subs...etc. It is up to the head coach to decide what to do in game situations. If you were an assistant coach, insisting something to head coach would be like agruing with your boss.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by NDSunsfan



I don't think the coaching lost this game for the Suns. Kobe and Shaq had a little to do with it.

I disagree. That timeout was very stupid--we had the 5 point lead, we had the momentum. In the NBA, momentum is almost as important as scoring, especially with a team like ours that tends to let teams back into the game (like we did).

Should Frank be fired because of it? That's a little harsh. But if we miss the playoffs, I will point to things like this as being one of the reasons for it.

 

[JS22]

Chap, I still think we'll make the playoffs and Frank will be praised to no end. So basically we'll be forced to have mediocre seasons until he is gone. If Van Gundy were here right now I really feel the Suns would be at or slightly below 50 wins. The coaching is just so bad right now..

 

[SUNSBG]

It will be extremely difficult to make the playoffs. The question is will FJ be fired if the Suns miss them?

 

[SweetD]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Don't get me wrong. I think it was stupid to bench Amare Stoudemire for that long. Are a Shaquille O'Neal had 4 fouls halfway through the third quarter. A decent coach would have told Amare to go strong to the basket to get Shaq fouled out. He also would have told him to pay attention on defense.

During that stretch when Walker went wild a couple times it was because Amare Stoudemire was trying to help on Shaquille O'Neal. The other times Amare was just lost.

BTW I know many of you probably remember the way Michael Jordan used to use his off arm to push away defenders he was posting up. But what the hell where the referees thinking tonight allowing Shaquille O'Neal to stiff arm the double team with his off arm. I was going nuts yelling at the TV. It happened at least 3 times tonight. It happened more than once to Amare Stoudemire, and I think the other time it was Joe Johnson or Shawn Marion. Please tell me someone else saw that? He would have the ball in one hand looking for a place to pass while his other arm was straight out holding off the double team.

I was a tough no call at the end, but we've seen it before. I this Amare Stoudemire tried to do a little too much on the last few possessions, but you've got to like the aggressiveness.

Tough game. I'm just glad they didn't get blown out.

Joe Mama

I say the stiff arm too that was a BS non call. He does it eveytime you double him. That is a foul they need to start calling it.

 

[Joe Mama]

You guys are dreaming if you think Frank Johnson is going to be fired anytime soon. It's just not going to happen. If the Suns really struggle next season there might be a change, but in most people's eyes the Suns have overachieved this year.

Al McCoy was obviously annoyed that Amare Stoudemire was out for so long and the second half. He must have wondered aloud will is going on a half a dozen times.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SUNSBG
It will be extremely difficult to make the playoffs. The question is will FJ be fired if the Suns miss them?

What the heck does this mean? Right now, we're IN the playoffs. It'll be hard to stay in this position, but you seem to have A LOT of faith in Houston.

 

[SUNSBG]

It'll be hard to stay in this position, but you seem to have A LOT of faith in Houston.

Let's say I have no faith in the Nuggets and the Grizzlies. I think before the Rockets game Seattle won't have any chance to make the playoffs. The game is in Houston, hard to lose. So I hope the Rockets lose the next two games. The Blazers lost by nearly 20 points last game. I hope they regroup before the Rockets game. Their most difficult game is against the Jazz.

In the same time the Suns could easily have close losses against teams like Dallas, Warriors, Spurs, Blazers, Seattle even if they play better basketball than the Rockets.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

ND, I dont see how you can say Amare didnt stop anyone. It wasnt like defenders were blowing by him. He was doing the smartest thing he could. He doubled off of the weakest player on the court to help attack the strongest. Technically it would have been nice if someone would pick up his man, but that is not his fault.

Penny did help out. He hit a good percentage of shots (I am not looking at the box score, but I remember he couldnt miss in the beginning, and kept hot all game). He had his hands in the passing lanes. The only 2 big problems I saw with him and the ball I remember was the lost ball near the end, and the horrible pass that steph had to jump and catch to save from going out of bounds.

Fact of the matter is, Amare should have been the second option last night, if not the first. He was one of the 2 hardest matchups for the Lakers. There is NO reason why he shouldnt have been on the floor, especially the way he was shooting in the first half.


BTW, I agree that FJ is going no where. Like I said earlier in this post, I have probably been the biggest supporter until this game. I just finally lost patience. However I also said that since we over achieved, he earned himself another year to prove us wrong.

 

[NDSunsfan]

I do agree with you that Amare was a definite strength on offense. And I don't want to be defending FJ, but I think it was a whole match-up issue. And we've all debated that issue to death, but my thought would be that would be FJ's reason. (like I can read minds?)

I also agree with Penny inasmuch as his hitting some outside shots and playing the passing lanes at times. It just seems that in the last couple of weeks he seems careless with the ball at times. He is an integral part of the offense and defense for that matter, but he just makes more than his share of what I would call 'careless' mistakes. Maybe hard to see from this paragraph, but I like having Penny on the Suns, he's really helped them this season, just an observation.

I also like having JJ on the floor. I thought he played good 'd' last night, too bad his shot was off.

I hope the Suns get in, make a little noise and live happily ever after. Changing coaches AGAIN can't look good from a stability standpoint to players/fans, can it?

I'm not saying Frank is coach of the year material, but I guess I don't think he's as evil as some around here seem to think.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by NDSunsfan


I also agree with Penny inasmuch as his hitting some outside shots and playing the passing lanes at times. It just seems that in the last couple of weeks he seems careless with the ball at times. He is an integral part of the offense and defense for that matter, but he just makes more than his share of what I would call 'careless' mistakes. Maybe hard to see from this paragraph, but I like having Penny on the Suns, he's really helped them this season, just an observation.

I think you can write this same exact paragraph with JJ or Marbury instead of Penny. Marbury Every player has had deficiencies--Penny's just seem to stand out because even though nobody wants him to fail, they expect him to. It's all psychological.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by NDSunsfan
And I don't want to be defending FJ, but I think it was a whole match-up issue. And we've all debated that issue to death, but my thought would be that would be FJ's reason. (like I can read minds?)

I dont relaly understand what you are saying here. I mean I thought that the match-up issue is exactly why he should have been on the floor. He matched up so well against LAs 4. I mean it was perfect for him, he could abuse them offensively, and he wasnt going to be attacked on the defensive end. It isn't his fault no one rotated to pick up his man. I mean you have to assume that Amare's job was to double shaq when he got the ball.


I used to agree with you on the part about FJ, but this past game got me all fired up. It was just the worst display from a coach I have ever seen. I will probably come back down to not being that passionate in a week or two, but I think the fact that even his supporters blew up at him proves how bad he did.

 

[elindholm]

Penny's just seem to stand out because even though nobody wants him to fail, they expect him to. It's all psychological.

Hardaway is second on the team in turnovers to Marbury (who handles the ball much more and plays ten more minutes per game). Are we imagining that?

And do you really think that Hardaway is on the same defensive level as Marion or Johnson, the two players who see the most time at similar positions?

People on this board are constantly talking about the weaknesses of other players -- Marion's refusal to take the ball to the basket, Outlaw's tendency to overplay on defense, Voskuhl's love affair with illegal screens. Hardaway is a poor defensive player and is careless with the basketball. That's not our psychological impression, it's a fact.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Ill admit that penny does create a lot of turnovers, and is a liability on man to man defense (i still think he is one of the best team defenders on our team, plays the passing lanes very well)...however I do see merrit in chap's post. I mean while everyone has defeciancies, you rarely see a post saying that they costed us the game....penny has been playing against himself since he came to phx.

 

[Joe Mama]

Penny Hardaway may have struggled to keep his man in front of him. Like every game he had a few careless turnovers. But in the first three quarters he shot the ball very well and had a huge parting keeping the Suns in the game.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

Right, I'm definitely not among those saying that Hardaway cost the Suns the game. The Suns lost because the Lakers played just a little bit better. They had two good-looking shots to win it and happened to miss both, but obviously the game could have gone either way.