Suns vs Spurs 12/25/08

[cly2tw]

Eh, I think the problem is that Amare is just not a franchise material. He is a good player, but he is no franchise.

But Amare is as franchise as Suns can get, so it's wise to continue training him in that direction as much as possible. And as I said somewhere else, with Nash on the team nobody else could develop their franchise game. And with Bell on his side, Nash himself was vehement against taking the ball out of his hands a little more with building it around Amare on mgt's mind.

 

[D-Dogg]

In this case, Amare should have started to shoot some jumpers, knowing that TD wouldn't be able to charge too hard to defend it with 5 fouls.

I'm a big fan of the art of war, and you've actually outlined a nice scenario there. Amare CAN hit that jumper...and if he had taken one he probably would have made it, and at the very least would have drawn TD out on him on the next possession, when Amare could have pumped him and then drove...leaving TD to either a) be out of position and let him drive and not foul b) bite and foul him on the drive or c) guard him close just like he did in the first place.

I love the triangle offense because it is predicated on an Art of War philosophy of not ramming in your strength, but to put pressure on the defense, read their weakness at the moment and take advantage of the specific weakness the defense hasn't been preparing to worry about.

Nice analogy, cly.

 

[BC867]

The fact that they lost the game on the last shot is almost irrelevant. The game could've gone either way...

But, in the big picture, that should not be the case on our home court.

...but the lessons learned from this game can go a long way towards preparing this team for the playoffs.

'Absolutely agree with this.

 

[Griffin]

I can understand Amare making a mistake. What I can't understand is why, after the game, he cannot just say he messed up and instead has to resort to making excuses. How is he supposed to get better at these types of situations if in his own opinion he did everything right?

 

[Covert Rain]

So, I agree with you on Porter not doing his job at properly preparing Amare for this task.

Properly preparing Amare for something that he is not capable of doing is not the problem. Amare never was and never will be a closer. It's not part of his game. He doesn't have all the fancy moves around the basket to be one either. If Porter was going to prepare Amare...it should have started the entire offseason not a game against a Western foe.

Porter was stupid for going to Amare 3 times in a row. He was stupid for not using Shaq or putting the ball in the hands of someone who could make a big shot and who has done it before.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I can understand Amare making a mistake. What I can't understand is why, after the game, he cannot just say he messed up and instead has to resort to making excuses. How is he supposed to get better at these types of situations if in his own opinion he did everything right?

exactly. that's what frustrates me. Nash used to put game son himself when he was the MVP. Kobe puts games on himself, Bron puts games on himself... not once have I actually heard Amare actually be the man and put the game on himself after he couldn't finish. It's always "I'll make 'em next time" re: FTs or "I didn't get the calls"... "or we played good enough D to win"... if you're a superstar, the MAN, once in a while... ah forget it. someone's just gonna call this post reactionary or something like that and it's not worth the time or effort to respond to that.

bottom line - the man takes responsibility for Ws and Ls.

 

[cly2tw]

I'm a big fan of the art of war, and you've actually outlined a nice scenario there. Amare CAN hit that jumper...and if he had taken one he probably would have made it, and at the very least would have drawn TD out on him on the next possession, when Amare could have pumped him and then drove...leaving TD to either a) be out of position and let him drive and not foul b) bite and foul him on the drive or c) guard him close just like he did in the first place.

I love the triangle offense because it is predicated on an Art of War philosophy of not ramming in your strength, but to put pressure on the defense, read their weakness at the moment and take advantage of the specific weakness the defense hasn't been preparing to worry about.

Nice analogy, cly.

Thanks, Donald.
I never tried to understand triangle offense. But from what you said, it makes sense. However, how sound a strategy may be, it needs able soldiers to execute. Triangle maybe a little to demanding? In comparison, low post and kick-out pass or drive and kick are easier on the players' mental capacity than a perpetually involving formation with many more parameters to condition one's optimal instant actions on.

 

[95pro]

to put this game on amare...i dont know.

i just finally watched the last play over and over.
nash just didnt switch quick enough. jrich switched to mason but to leave his man wide open. those two looked confused during that entire play. nash did find his man, ginobli, though.

also, imo, nash shouldnt be in there. we needed more lenth and more athleticism, even though the last shot wasnt on him.

it came down to the last play. porter needs to emphasize that giving up a 3 is not acceptable. jrich left his man wide open.

 

[D-Dogg]

Thanks, Donald.
I never tried to understand triangle offense. But from what you said, it makes sense. However, how sound a strategy may be, it needs able soldiers to execute. Triangle maybe a little to demanding? In comparison, low post and kick-out pass or drive and kick are easier on the players' mental capacity than a perpetually involving formation with many more parameters to condition one's optimal instant actions on.

The tri is incredibly complex, even in its base state. I have looked into it, because I wanted to teach basic concepts from it to 8 year olds (yes, I'm kind of insane, but early exposure to that kind of thinking is crucial, imo) but it was difficult for me to wrap my head around in a coaching fashion. As you get deeper into the offense, it's incredibly difficult.

That's why Phil is reluctant to add players usually, and they say it takes at least a year to grasp the system.

So yeah, it's probably overly complex.

 

[cly2tw]

While our fans blamed Porter for going to Amare 3 straight times without score in the final minutes, Rockets just went N > 6 times straight to a clear exhausted Yao without score in the game vs. Jazz to end regulation in a draw.

 

[Mainstreet]

bottom line - the man takes responsibility for Ws and Ls.

Maybe Amare's new nickname should be "The Man" so we know where the buck stops.

I like.

 

[BC867]

If Porter was going to prepare Amare...it should have started the entire offseason not a game against a Western foe.

Giving him a chance to broaden his game during the first half of the season is good coaching and certainly an improvement over the previous coach who waited 'til the playoffs to experiment.

Porter was stupid for going to Amare 3 times in a row. He was stupid for not using Shaq or putting the ball in the hands of someone who could make a big shot and who has done it before.

I do agree with the three times in a row though.

As you said, the only time you stick with it is when it has already been proven successful. Such as an established three-point shooter who misses one, then comes right back and tries again. Then usually makes it.

 

[Mainstreet]

Giving him a chance to broaden his game during the first half of the season is good coaching and certainly an improvement over the previous coach who waited 'til the playoffs to experiment.

I think you should wait to make sure the Suns not only make the playoffs but win the WCFs before you thrust the dagger deeper into DA. Porter was supposedly brought here to improve the Suns as I recall.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think you should wait to make sure the Suns not only make the playoffs but win the WCFs before you thrust the dagger deeper into DA. Porter was supposedly brought here to improve the Suns as I recall.

If we were consistently getting to the WCF you'd have a point, but considering we were getting diminishing returns every year for the previous three years, winning in the first round is at least as good as what DA did IMO.

 

[Mainstreet]

If we were consistently getting to the WCF you'd have a point, but considering we were getting diminishing returns every year for the previous three years, winning in the first round is at least as good as what DA did IMO.

Just pointing out Porter was supposed to be an improvement over DA. The Suns made two WCF appearances in just over 4 plus seasons with DA as coach.

Two out of four ain't bad.

I'd like to leave the decision by the Suns FO to push DA out as the Suns coach behind but there is always someone trying to pour salt in the wound. I think they forget where the Suns were before DA arrived.

Anyway, this is not pointed at you.

 

[Covert Rain]

Just pointing out Porter was supposed to be an improvement over DA. The Suns made two WCF appearances in just over 4 plus seasons with DA as coach.

Porter was suppose to bring a defensive improvment over DA. Nobody expected Porter to improve this offense except from a half court set. This team is playing much better from the half court set and under Porter the team has showed slight progress with a much improved defense in the paint.

Agree with Cheese, things were getting worse with D'Antoni 3 years running. In fairness to Porter if he gets us to the playoffs, he already matched D'Antoin from last year. We can talk about Porters overall comparison to D'Antoni 4 years from now IF Porter is still here.

 

[Griffin]

In fairness to Porter if he gets us to the playoffs, he already matched D'Antoin from last year.

The main difference is that Porter doesn't have to try to work Shaq into the system a couple months before the playoffs. That was the main reason why the Suns didn't have home court going into the first round and won "only" 55 games. We've lost quite a bit of games right after that trade.

 

[Covert Rain]

The main difference is that Porter doesn't have to try to work Shaq into the system a couple months before the playoffs. That was the main reason why the Suns didn't have home court going into the first round and won "only" 55 games. We've lost quite a bit of games right after that trade.

One additional main difference is that Shaq is being used the right way by Porter as well. We actually are using him in the half court and not playing him at the top of the key. We are actually forcing teams baseline and not into the paint. We actually are incorporating a half court game.

It goes beyond just incorporating Shaq IMO. D'Antoni was trying to work around Shaq versus changing segments of the offense to fit his game.

 

[Nate]

Porter was suppose to bring a defensive improvment over DA. Nobody expected Porter to improve this offense except from a half court set. This team is playing much better from the half court set and under Porter the team has showed slight progress with a much improved defense in the paint.

We are playing worse defense this season under Porter than last season under DA. The effective fg% of our opponents is higher this year, our opponents average a higher percentage of the available rebounds of their misses this year and they shoot more free throws per game in relation to their numbers of offensive possession. Better D? Not so far.

 

[slinslin]

The problem is we should play a slow pace with good defense, it is ideally suited for Shaq and the playoffs.
Amare, JRich, Grant Hill can play either fast or slow anyway. Barnes offense struggles a bit in a slow game but spot up shooting and defense will still make him valueable.
The problem is that Nash and especially Barbosa can't play the slow game. Barbosa struggles with his offense as it is always shown against San Antonio and Nash turns it over too much and gives up too much on defense.

 

[Budden]

Because Amare has a huge ego and wants to be "the man". If they didn't go to him, he would have cried to the media. I guess Porter is trying to keep Amare happy. I do understand what Porter did though- "You want to be the man? Ok, go ahead." For all we know, maybe Amare said, "Give me the ball!"

I agree with you, though. Shaq should have had the ball in the low post on those possessions, especially after Duncan put Amare in his place first time or two. I am incredibly disappointed that Amare could not get ONE point on 3 possessions against a guy with 5 fouls.

Ughh. You're just annoying with the Amare stuff. Amare took it hard to Duncan's chest three times in a row and missed a few well-defended shots right at the cup. He missed.

If that were Kobe Bryant, and he took 3 fadeaway jumpers at the end of the game and they all went in-and-out, I would hope that you wouldn't blame Kobe. Lord knows we've seen Steve Nash miss some big shots late in the game. Now, you might blame Kobe and you might blame Steve. Or, you might blame whoever you are dumping on in that current situation.

The pretty obvious point is, the only reason to place any real blame on Amare for missing those shots is that they were pretty make-able shots. I mean, he was right at the rim! If Kobe shoots a few fadeaways with a hand in his face, those are tough shots, so you can't really blame him. However, Amare got himself to a great spot on the court - in other words, he put himself in perfect position to make a couple buckets - and he unfortunately missed them.

It is a possibility that Amare no longer has the explosiveness to be a truly reliable guy in those situations. But I've seen Amare Stoudemire absolutely embarrass Tim Duncan on several possessions in virtually every game of every season since he's been in the league. Is it possible that age and injuries have limited Amare so much that he is no longer able to do those kinds of things? Yes. But I haven't seen enough evidence of that this season to discount everything I've seen from Amare Stoudemire in the past and say, as you seem so eager to do, that Porter should go away from Amare in like situations in the future.

Did you see "X-Files: I want to Believe" and walk out of the theater saying, "Man, that Fox Mulder is a terrible character. What was Chris Carter thinking when he came up with him?" or did you just accept that the movie was somewhat disappointing?

 

[mojorizen7]

It still amazes me that the SPURS have eliminated the SUNS in the playoffs 6 times in the last 12 yrs.
Pure ownage.

 

[Covert Rain]

We are playing worse defense this season under Porter than last season under DA. The effective fg% of our opponents is higher this year, our opponents average a higher percentage of the available rebounds of their misses this year and they shoot more free throws per game in relation to their numbers of offensive possession. Better D? Not so far.

The Suns are much better at protecting the paint this year. Mostly because Porter is forcing teams baseline where it was D'Antoni's philosophy to force players into the pain then collapse. There are nowhere near as many easy buckets in the paint this year.

The Suns were also on pace (have not checked lately) to keep more teams under 100 this year then last. We are currently ranked 15th in the NBA in opposing FG% (down from 18th last year).

Though not leaps an bounds better still better. We are worse in other areas for sure like perimeter defense. However, I prefer better interior defense if I had to pick. So, I disagree. This team is better then last year.

 

[Nate]

The Suns are much better at protecting the paint this year. Mostly because Porter is forcing teams baseline where it was D'Antoni's philosophy to force players into the pain then collapse. There are nowhere near as many easy buckets in the paint this year.

Thats true. We are fouling more and earlier, so opponents dont have the easy buckets in the paint but are shooting fts and wide open threes instead. Which makes our D more ineffective than last years.

The Suns were also on pace (have not checked lately) to keep more teams under 100 this year then last. We are currently ranked 15th in the NBA in opposing FG% (down from 18th last year).

You should check again. Till the Christmas game, we gave up over 100 points for 12 continous games, a Suns record for the last 20 or so years. Last year, we were 16th in defensive efficiency (8th in effective fg% defense, gave up the 2nd least fts), right now we are 23rd in defensive efficiency because our opponents shoot more fts per 100 possessions and more 3 point shots. That negates our alleged better paint D.

Though not leaps an bounds better still better. We are worse in other areas for sure like perimeter defense. However, I prefer better interior defense if I had to pick. So, I disagree. This team is better then last year.

So you prefer to give up more points per possession this year. If I follow your logic, our offense this year is better because we are scoring more points through the paint then last year. Nevermind that we are not scoring as effectively...

One last point. Using your criteria, ppg and fg%, among the top defensive teams in the league are Charlotte, Denver, Dallas and Miami. If we look at defensive efficiency, the top 6 teams in the league are in order: Boston, Cleveland, Orlando, Lakers, San Antonio and Houston. Pretty convincing, especially when compared with the actual standings, isnt it.

 

[nowagimp]

Thats true. We are fouling more and earlier, so opponents dont have the easy buckets in the paint but are shooting fts and wide open threes instead. Which makes our D more ineffective than last years.




You should check again. Till the Christmas game, we gave up over 100 points for 12 continous games, a Suns record for the last 20 or so years. Last year, we were 16th in defensive efficiency (8th in effective fg% defense, gave up the 2nd least fts), right now we are 23rd in defensive efficiency because our opponents shoot more fts per 100 possessions and more 3 point shots. That negates our alleged better paint D.




So you prefer to give up more points per possession this year. If I follow your logic, our offense this year is better because we are scoring more points through the paint then last year. Nevermind that we are not scoring as effectively...

One last point. Using your criteria, ppg and fg%, among the top defensive teams in the league are Charlotte, Denver, Dallas and Miami. If we look at defensive efficiency, the top 6 teams in the league are in order: Boston, Cleveland, Orlando, Lakers, San Antonio and Houston. Pretty convincing, especially when compared with the actual standings, isnt it.

Kind of hard to argue with the facts, so I suppose we can just ignore them and believe what we want. I mean, thats a horrific scenario for a porter/kerr-o-phile: that DA's teams were as good or better on defense. And on offense, the asst/TO ratio is crap, much worse, while giving up alot of Oboards remains a serious problem. Its kind of hard to believe this team will have time to gell before the majority of the core retires.