Surprising Development

[RugbyMuffin]

This. It’s why Seattle made the playoffs last year even though the legion of boom wasn’t completely obliterated.

To be fair, that is not really true.

The Seahawks were not looking like they were going anywhere until they started running the ball well. When it was just the Russel Wilson show there where issues, not to mention he got hurt in September and in November, and November it was from a hit.

 

[HGC]

Going back to my point made before, I cannot believe I am even discussing this, but it is what it is.

Here is the deal, no matter how much we do not want to believe it, the NFL executives do not read this board.

What I mean with that snarky comment, is that Josh Rosen is still seen as a very good NFL prospect. You have to take the bashing of Rosen you are reading here with a grain of salt.

A player like Rosen could go to the Giants, the Patriots, the Steelers, the Chargers, just to name a few teams that have older QB's.

A late first rounder or early 2nd round is a possibility, if the Cardinals go that route.

Yet, again, that puts A LOT of emphasis on Chandler Jones, and his health. Kingsbury better get 30+ points a game, because our once feared defense is going to be VERY average.

I will say it over, and over, pass rushers are hard to come by. Since I REALLY started watching the Cardinals, they have had three pass rushers.

Rice, Berry, and Jones. A few players had a good year here and there, but consistently they have only had 3 since I have watched them.

Bosa is quite impressive, and past him and Allen, you are not getting anything that would be more than finding a diamond in the rough.

That being said, to get a late 1st round pick, and another 3 or 4, you could think about getting two defensive line prospects at the end of the 1st round and beginning of the 2nd round, that would have no business being there.

Let's say the Cardinals trade Rosen, draft Murray, and walk away with Tillery from ND and Lawerence from Clem. That would be interesting.

Nothing snarky about your comment.

 

[Krangodnzr]

No way. Wow. You're trolling Krang? Seriously bro? Isn't the debate good enough on it's legit issues for you not to be throwing silly stuff like the above out there?

Do you know what stunk in the first quarter of that game Krang? Riley's play-calling. Seriously. The whole team came out and played like they had listened to the media for the last six weeks. About how they had no chance against AL, and the loss was far, far away from being all on Murray.

If, during the 1st quarter, Murray had throw a pick six, or even fumbled away a possession, then maybe you put more responsibility for the loss on him. But he didn't.

Finally, he was without his top big play target. H. Brown The one WR that OU really, really needed in that game, to stretch the field, and put a little fear into the AL sideline, was maybe 60%. Brown was a liability when he was on the field, dropping at least two passes, maybe more, and running crappy routes.

Stop trolling with AL game Krang. It's silly.

I've watched every Kyler Murray play in that game. He was rattled early.

Men like, women lie, numbers don't. Murray was rattled. He looked how he will look as a Cardinal (now I'm trolling )

 

[jefftheshark]

Going back to my point made before, I cannot believe I am even discussing this, but it is what it is.

Here is the deal, no matter how much we do not want to believe it, the NFL executives do not read this board.

What I mean with that snarky comment, is that Josh Rosen is still seen as a very good NFL prospect. You have to take the bashing of Rosen you are reading here with a grain of salt.

A player like Rosen could go to the Giants, the Patriots, the Steelers, the Chargers, just to name a few teams that have older QB's.

A late first rounder or early 2nd round is a possibility, if the Cardinals go that route.

Yet, again, that puts A LOT of emphasis on Chandler Jones, and his health. Kingsbury better get 30+ points a game, because our once feared defense is going to be VERY average.

I will say it over, and over, pass rushers are hard to come by. Since I REALLY started watching the Cardinals, they have had three pass rushers.

Rice, Berry, and Jones. A few players had a good year here and there, but consistently they have only had 3 since I have watched them.

Bosa is quite impressive, and past him and Allen, you are not getting anything that would be more than finding a diamond in the rough.

This.

If I were betting my very well paying job (and Keim is with every move he makes) I’m damn well taking the safest choice in the draft - the one that future employers would agree made sense at the time in case it still blows up in my face. Keim could swing for the fences when he was coming off a playoff season, after 3-13 he can’t afford to get cute.

Personally I’d rather have a dominant game changing defense that allows our new offense to get their feet under them, other than changing QBs in the middle of the stream and hope we’re suddenly going win a bunch of 45-43 shootouts.

JTS

 

[Delmar M Lewis]

Lazy research so? Guess scouts were lazy on Brady, Romo, Warner and Brees as well.

A case could be made that Mahomes is the best NFL QB right now, which is crazy after just starting a season and some of the best QBs ever still playing. Yet as a draft prospect, Mahomes was far from the best. His mechanics were all over the place. They still are. Yet he makes a strength out of this usually bad habit. Many QB prospects were very smart. Ryan Fitzpatrick of all people was probably the smartest QB ever. Arm talent wasn't a question with Mahomes, but several other big arm "wow throw" QBs failed despite their natural talents. Actually as pure prospects, Kyler Murray should be rated as a better draft prospect. Mahomes has 3 inches on him, but Murray the better footwork and - while he can make off-platform throws just like Mahomes - Murray is mechanically more sound. Again, this is all about the prospect. Nobody could've foreseen that Mahomes would shred multiple records for the Chiefs.

Hate to say this but Mahomes was the best last year let's see if he is still the best 5 years from now or whether the league catches up to him and his game of course the same Goes for Murray Rosen and every one else to My money rest on Keeping Rosen at least 1 more Year and drafting the best Defensive Player available

 

[forever red]

We would have to be crazy not to pick Murray. I agree Rosen did not get a fair shot last year. But if Rosen and Murray were both available this year who would you pick first? And for the Cardinals they are. Rosen may turn out to be an excellent QB but Murray has the potential to make the Cardinals Division champions for a decade. You take whatever little risk there is and pick Murray first. Find him a WR that can stretch the field and the Cardinals could find themselves at the top of the offensive stats next year rather than firmly entrenched at the bottom

 

[ARZCardinals]

Murray had the highest QB rating of ANY QB to ever play in college football...try ignoring that

now back to the hating

can't tell if some here are just trolling or just blind

Again, never before has a QB had a QB rating for a full season as high as Murray ever in college football...how does that not make you want to have him on the team you cheer for. If the line fails...he will run for 7...he alone can make up for the pathetic O line AZ has.

 

[BW52]

We would have to be crazy not to pick Murray. I agree Rosen did not get a fair shot last year. But if Rosen and Murray were both available this year who would you pick first? And for the Cardinals they are. Rosen may turn out to be an excellent QB but Murray has the potential to make the Cardinals Division champions for a decade. You take whatever little risk there is and pick Murray first. Find him a WR that can stretch the field and the Cardinals could find themselves at the top of the offensive stats next year rather than firmly entrenched at the bottom

I question the fact that a shorter Qb is taking a "little " risk?Murray also has the potential to fall flat on his face?Since the list of successful smart QB is so long.... I think its a choice that the Cards shouldn`t make.

 

[BW52]

Murray had the highest QB rating of ANY QB to ever play in college football...try ignoring that

now back to the hating

BFD.Now go back to cheerleading Chargerboy.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

We would have to be crazy not to pick Murray. I agree Rosen did not get a fair shot last year. But if Rosen and Murray were both available this year who would you pick first? And for the Cardinals they are. Rosen may turn out to be an excellent QB but Murray has the potential to make the Cardinals Division champions for a decade. You take whatever little risk there is and pick Murray first.

That is a great question.

If it was me ? 1st off, I do not make Kingsbury our head coach, and with that, I would pick Rosen every time.


For the Cardinals? If Kingsbury thinks his QB is Murray over Rosen, then I would get Murray.

The fan in me wants this all to work.

The cynic in me says, let Kingsbury get Murray, and watch it all burn down, to prove it was a poor decision to make a sub-.500 winning college coach your head coach, and double to then bring a QB to work a system that defensive coordinators are going to eventually figure out.

Thank goodness I am a bigger fan than a cynic.

Find him a WR that can stretch the field

and the Cardinals could find themselves at the top of the offensive stats next year rather than firmly entrenched at the bottom

With the Cardinals, that is easier said then done.

You go QB, and then WR in your 1st and second rounds, then they better sign a defensive lineman, in free agency, and do it quickly.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No way. Wow. You're trolling Krang? Seriously bro? Isn't the debate good enough on it's legit issues for you not to be throwing silly stuff like the above out there?

Do you know what stunk in the first quarter of that game Krang? Riley's play-calling. Seriously. The whole team came out and played like they had listened to the media for the last six weeks. About how they had no chance against AL, and the loss was far, far away from being all on Murray.

If, during the 1st quarter, Murray had throw a pick six, or even fumbled away a possession, then maybe you put more responsibility for the loss on him. But he didn't.

Finally, he was without his top big play target. H. Brown The one WR that OU really, really needed in that game, to stretch the field, and put a little fear into the AL sideline, was maybe 60%. Brown was a liability when he was on the field, dropping at least two passes, maybe more, and running crappy routes.

Stop trolling with AL game Krang. It's silly.

Holy F... he's TROLLING because he disagrees with you? continually finishing your posts with a pseudo-polite "sir" "sir" doesn't wash away the condescending trash you repeatedly direct at people before hand.

 

[GuernseyCard]

This. It’s why Seattle made the playoffs last year even though the legion of boom wasn’t completely obliterated.

Key to Seattle's success was a vast improvement of their 0-line, particularly the interior 3. We do that, and Rosen will be fine - imo.

 

[TheCardFan]

Murray had the highest QB rating of ANY QB to ever play in college football...try ignoring that

Interesting stat

You must be registered for see images attach

*Disregard the highlighted line*

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Interesting stat

You must be registered for see images attach

*Disregard the highlighted line*

By virtue of his overwhelming advantage in rushing, Murray had the superior 2018 result vs. Tua.

In it's totality, Murray's 2018 campaign was the best ever by a college QB. The best ever for a QB at any level probably.

 

[JeffGollin]

I don’t see anyway that Keim could dump Rosen for a 3rd round pick and not be fired by Bidwill.

We have no clue how the Cardinal leadership makes major decisions - i.e. the role of Michael B, how much he delegates, collaberation vs. decree etc.

For all we know, the Rosen decision one way or the other has already been made, everyone's input has been considered and concensus arrived at.

Or not (Maybe Michael slams the table and issues marching orders).

Or maybe the process changes from issue to issue (i.e. group-think in one instance followed by letting Steve make the call in another.

Without knowing how decisions are made, it's kind of tough trying to predict what those decisions will be.

PS So that chart gave Sam Bradford a 176.5 rating?

 

[Dr. Jones]

19/37....Lots of bad passes. He stunk in the 1st quarter, dooming his team to fall WAAAAAAY behind.

IF Rosen sucks, I'd rather have Tua.

In that one game...... he had roughly the same Comp percentage that Rosen had for the 2018 SEASON.

What makes you think we will have the number 1 pick next season if Rosen sucks?

And finally...... Why would you want a QB who is more injury prone than Kyler, less mobile, and Roughly the same otherwise, but not be interested in Kyler? Because of 3 inches?

 

[DVontel]

By virtue of his overwhelming advantage in rushing, Murray had the superior 2018 result vs. Tua.

In it's totality, Murray's 2018 campaign was the best ever by a college QB. The best ever for a QB at any level probably.

Great campaign but I wouldn’t even put it top 5 in the past 10 years.

 

[slanidrac16]

The whole point of the thread by Harry was that nfl brass are starting to waiver on tradition. Thanks Harry. By the way Harry....should we take Murray?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Great campaign but I wouldn’t even put it top 5 in the past 10 years.

Well then it's pistols at 30 paces for you and I sir!





















Lol..

 

[GuernseyCard]

Well then it's pistols at 30 paces for you and I sir!

3O paces is for cowards!



















Lol..

 

[kerouac9]

This.

If I were betting my very well paying job (and Keim is with every move he makes) I’m damn well taking the safest choice in the draft - the one that future employers would agree made sense at the time in case it still blows up in my face. Keim could swing for the fences when he was coming off a playoff season, after 3-13 he can’t afford to get cute.

Personally I’d rather have a dominant game changing defense that allows our new offense to get their feet under them, other than changing QBs in the middle of the stream and hope we’re suddenly going win a bunch of 45-43 shootouts.

JTS

Here's the funny thing: We actually HAD a pretty good defense last year. Even with the collapse at the end, the Cards were 17th in defensive DVOA. The free agency period dedicated to adding to the defense doesn't make a ton of sense to me for this reason: what would improve the defense the most would be some help on offense.

Our offense was historically bad last season. Like, one of the worst all-time. Improving our historically bad offense to league-average would likely have had us in the playoffs.

How to I apportion blame for our historically bad 2018 offense?

40% Terrible coaching (and I think that coaching staffs are generally interchangeable)
30% Bad offensive line (I think we had a below-average OL at the beginning of the season which
15% bad receivers
15% Rosen

I want Rosen to succeed. I don't think there's anything physically preventing him from being Aaron Rodgers, but I also think a vortex of losing could turn him into Jay Cutler very quickly. I think you had to excise Wilks because the danger of getting Rosen off on the wrong foot was profound.

The fact of the matter is that Kingsbury can't talk to Rosen right now. Cards can begin OTAs in April 1. What happens in that 10-day period will probably decide the future moves toward the draft.

 

[jefftheshark]

Here's the funny thing: We actually HAD a pretty good defense last year. Even with the collapse at the end, the Cards were 17th in defensive DVOA. The free agency period dedicated to adding to the defense doesn't make a ton of sense to me for this reason: what would improve the defense the most would be some help on offense.

Our offense was historically bad last season. Like, one of the worst all-time. Improving our historically bad offense to league-average would likely have had us in the playoffs.

How to I apportion blame for our historically bad 2018 offense?

40% Terrible coaching (and I think that coaching staffs are generally interchangeable)
30% Bad offensive line (I think we had a below-average OL at the beginning of the season which
15% bad receivers
15% Rosen

I couldn’t agree more with this take K9, that last year’s defense was not the cause of our horrendous performance. That said, I also believe there’s something to be said for the D going from good to great.

I guess I’m in the keep Rosen camp, not because of his impressive showing last year - it wasn’t even close to that - it’s because like you I can only attribute a small percentage of our suckiness on him.

Upgrading the offensive line alone will improve the QB play, whether it’s Rosen or anyone else. Keim has taken steps to address this (who knows at this point if it’s enough, but there’s still the draft for more upgrades).

Time will tell, but I’ll be disappointed if we pass on Bosa to improve a position I’m not sure that won’t be better anyway.

JTS

 

[Krangodnzr]

In that one game...... he had roughly the same Comp percentage that Rosen had for the 2018 SEASON.

What makes you think we will have the number 1 pick next season if Rosen sucks?

And finally...... Why would you want a QB who is more injury prone than Kyler, less mobile, and Roughly the same otherwise, but not be interested in Kyler? Because of 3 inches?

Yeah....same completion percentage playing with a great offensive line, great receiving corps, great playcaller.

You fail to EVER address that in your comparison. If Rosen had failed like this with the 2015 Arizona Cardinals, you would have a point, but when Chad Williams and JJ Nelson are playing lots of snaps, let alone Trent Sherfield, your talent sucks!

More injury prone? Kyler played one freaking year. That's a ******** statement with very little data to support that. If you base this statement on reality, than Kyler is more injury prone because he ran more than Michael Vick did in college (who was hurt his last year as a starter because....wait for it....he ran a lot)

It's not three inches. Again, you ignore that drafting Kyler Murray also means you don't get to draft Nick Bosa, Quinnen Williams, Josh Allen, or even so crazy weird pick like Rashan Gary. That means you miss the chance to draft a franchise building block on defense as well.

Lets say that Murray becomes Russell Wilson, which most people think is his ceiling/comp. What if Rosen becomes Eli Manning caliber (who admittedly isn't as good as Wilson) but Nick Bosa becomes an All pro as well. Which scenario is better?

 

[forever red]

We have no clue how the Cardinal leadership makes major decisions - i.e. the role of Michael B, how much he delegates, collaberation vs. decree etc.

For all we know, the Rosen decision one way or the other has already been made, everyone's input has been considered and concensus arrived at.

Or not (Maybe Michael slams the table and issues marching orders).

Or maybe the process changes from issue to issue (i.e. group-think in one instance followed by letting Steve make the call in another.

Without knowing how decisions are made, it's kind of tough trying to predict what those decisions will be.

PS So that chart gave Sam Bradford a 176.5 rating?

Cardinals should hold out til draft day for a first round pick for Rosen. Other teams will consistently "say" from now til then they won't give up a first round pick but when push comes to shove they will,especially the Giants who now have 2 first round picks.Redskins in the hunt too and one of them will fold. All we have to do is sit back and be patient.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'll say again:

I would draft Murray IF the Cardinals can walk away with at least a mid 1st round pick for Rosen.

All this talk about 3rd round picks isn't worth it, it's a total fleecing. The Cardinals invested a 1, 3, and 5 to get Rosen, and popped his rookie cherry.

The NY Giants are the perfect landing spot and I would look to get #17 and a 3rd rounder for Rosen. If they won't do at least the #17, they better offer 2x 2nd rounders, and at least a 3rd rounder.

If that value isn't given, I'd take Nick Bosa or Quinnen Williams and be done with it, confident that my defense is going to be pretty good and that Rosen will improve with KK as his coach.