Surprising Development

[Chris_Sanders]

Don`t buy the hype.So now Murray can be a pocket QB? Is he just going to have a big "S" under his uniform? I guess he needs to stay away from Krytonite and he will be okay? Sorry boys I don`t buy the narrative.Discounting his physical limits in a big mans league is pure nonsense.Everybody is going to be faster,more agile and after the QB.

Again see see the facts. Murray has always been a pocket QB who has the ability to scramble. You are basing your opinion on highlight tapes, not complete game film.

 

[DVontel]

Longtime Giants scout I was out with last weekend told me Haskins is at the top of their QB list.

Longtime NFL GM I hung out with 2 weekends ago said the same thing as well.

 

[Mainstreet]

I have been critical of Murray's performance in the Alabama game but there was a reason he had to force throws with their dominant defense. This kid did a lot to carry Oklahoma in that game.

Judging him on his entire season is a better gauge. I would not be disappointed if the Cardinals drafted him.

 

[BW52]

Again see see the facts. Murray has always been a pocket QB who has the ability to scramble. You are basing your opinion on highlight tapes, not complete game film.

Chris -you say see the facts-I don`t see a long list of short Qbs in the NFL who have had succ fessful careers.That is FACT.The line of thinking that Murray will be a game changing transcendent QB is a longshot that is not worth taking the chance on IMHO.Saying that his size won`t make a difference is based on what facts? Are you so sure Murray will be Russell Wilson 2.0 instead of Doug Flutie 2.0?In my view its not worth taking that chance and betting the number 1 pick on those odds.Oklahoma isn`t the NFL.Thats what I am basing my opinion on.I just don`t think his game will be successful in the NFL to be worthy of a Number 1 pick.Too many red flags for me.

 

[oaken1]

Giants will draft hime. after losing OBJ they need a pizazz draft to energize their fan base... Murray might do that for them.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

Excellent point.

The real unknown for us Cardinals fans is how KK and SK view Rosen and his ability to successfully transition into the new offense. They have been around him for more than a year...I am pretty sure they have a good feel for it. With that being said, Murray's floor might be slightly better than Rosen in this offense.

Based on your point, you probably have to consider more variables:

If Murray > Rosen and Bosa - you take him. I think that is low probability though.

If you think Murray can be the franchise QB then you really have to consider what you would get for Rosen into the equation.

Is Murray + (15 pick) > Rosen and Bosa?

If Murray and Rosen are close:

Is Rosen + the 6th + the 17th (or 4th and 24th) > than Rosen + Bosa

If we could get a 1st round pick for Rosen, then this is a moot point. If we think Murray is better than Rosen, then take him and use the Rosen 1st rounder to draft BPA.
HOWEVER, I seriously doubt we are getting a 1st rounder for Rosen. Media keeps saying we would get a 3rd rounder. To me, that is ridiculous if we dump him for that low of a pick.

 

[Ohcrap75]

You've had some good takes in this whole debate, and I don't want to seem like a jerk, but can I respectfully disagree with you here sir?

Murray starts moving when he's pressured, that's true, but he still looks to throw most of the time when he's flushed from the pocket.

And holy crap is he deadly when he throws on the run. He draws defenders to him, and that leaves his guys running wide open.

Think about him an DJ running a two man game on opposing defenses. Murray breaking down the opposing front seven, and DJ getting the ball with tons of open space around him. Pretty exciting eh?

Respectfully disagree away!!

I do agree that no team wants to see him outside of the pocket! Deadly combination of speed and accuracy while on the move.

There were instances where I did see him drop his eyes a little too quickly, but that doesn't mean he isn't improving in that area. One thing to remember is that he is raw enough that he was developing at a rapid pace throughout the season. I might take another look to see if he improved from early to later in the season.

 

[Veer]

People who didn't have Mahomes higher we're just being lazy.

Mahomes is the best QB to come out in a long time . His package of arm talent, smarts, and mobility are the best since Luck

Murray isn't that good. In his one game where he faced adversity he struggled, while Mahomes excelled.

Lazy research so? Guess scouts were lazy on Brady, Romo, Warner and Brees as well.

A case could be made that Mahomes is the best NFL QB right now, which is crazy after just starting a season and some of the best QBs ever still playing. Yet as a draft prospect, Mahomes was far from the best. His mechanics were all over the place. They still are. Yet he makes a strength out of this usually bad habit. Many QB prospects were very smart. Ryan Fitzpatrick of all people was probably the smartest QB ever. Arm talent wasn't a question with Mahomes, but several other big arm "wow throw" QBs failed despite their natural talents. Actually as pure prospects, Kyler Murray should be rated as a better draft prospect. Mahomes has 3 inches on him, but Murray the better footwork and - while he can make off-platform throws just like Mahomes - Murray is mechanically more sound. Again, this is all about the prospect. Nobody could've foreseen that Mahomes would shred multiple records for the Chiefs.

 

[Ohcrap75]

This may be your perception but this is the reality.

BTW, that is stunning accuracy.

What do these stats have to do with him scrambling instead of throwing besides nothing?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

What do these stats have to do with him scrambling instead of throwing besides nothing?

Again, I am not your google. Do some research yourself instead of just asking questions.

Against nickel and dime packages, he was even better when blitzed, with 79.1 percent of his passes charted as catchable when the defense brought pressure. And Murray didn’t just check down to the outlet receiver when the other team sent heat. Kyler pushed the ball downfield at depths of 20 yards or greater 21 percent of the time vs. a blitzing defender.

During the PFF grade this came up and their analyzed of every one of his runs. Their conclusion was that the vast majority (I believe it was 80%) were designed runs or RPOs (Run Pass Option)

Out of his total 140 rushing attempts that equals 28 times that he scrambled instead of throwing the ball. So twice a game he scrambled. Adding those to his pass attempts is 405 times he passed or a 7% scramble rate.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Lies, damn lies and statistics!

 

[Ohcrap75]

Again, I am not your google. Do some research yourself instead of just asking questions.



During the PFF grade this came up and their analyzed of every one of his runs. Their conclusion was that the vast majority (I believe it was 80%) were designed runs or RPOs (Run Pass Option)

Out of his total 140 rushing attempts that equals 28 times that he scrambled instead of throwing the ball. So twice a game he scrambled. Adding those to his pass attempts is 405 times he passed or a 7% scramble rate.

Well then stop quoting my opinions not directed at you, telling me they are wrong and attaching some irrelevant stats that had nothing to do with what I had stated. What's your deal man? Your following me around to every thread to tell me I'm wrong? I don't give an eff about your stupid stats. I drive by looking through the windshield, not the rear view mirror.... Stay off me

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Respectfully disagree away!!

I do agree that no team wants to see him outside of the pocket! Deadly combination of speed and accuracy while on the move.

There were instances where I did see him drop his eyes a little too quickly, but that doesn't mean he isn't improving in that area. One thing to remember is that he is raw enough that he was developing at a rapid pace throughout the season. I might take another look to see if he improved from early to later in the season.

Thanks. I think you're on the money again. I agree with many of your posts sir.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Again, I am not your google. Do some research yourself instead of just asking questions.



During the PFF grade this came up and their analyzed of every one of his runs. Their conclusion was that the vast majority (I believe it was 80%) were designed runs or RPOs (Run Pass Option)

Out of his total 140 rushing attempts that equals 28 times that he scrambled instead of throwing the ball. So twice a game he scrambled. Adding those to his pass attempts is 405 times he passed or a 7% scramble rate.

Wow. Powerful stats.

You are formidable sir. Glad to have you leaning towards Murray.

 

[HGC]

If we could get a 1st round pick for Rosen, then this is a moot point. If we think Murray is better than Rosen, then take him and use the Rosen 1st rounder to draft BPA.
HOWEVER, I seriously doubt we are getting a 1st rounder for Rosen. Media keeps saying we would get a 3rd rounder. To me, that is ridiculous if we dump him for that low of a pick.

I don’t see anyway that Keim could dump Rosen for a 3rd round pick and not be fired by Bidwill.

 

[Proximo]

I don’t see anyway that Keim could dump Rosen for a 3rd round pick and not be fired by Bidwill.

He should be fired if that is all he gets. He is worth a first, or at the least a 2nd and a 3rd.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

He should be fired if that is all he gets. He is worth a first, or at the least a 2nd and a 3rd.

(Cough cough) should have been fired last year (cough cough)

He is having a great off season though

 

[b8rtm8nn]

Wow. Powerful stats.

You are formidable sir. Glad to have you leaning towards Murray.

Speaking of stats (and interesting to see how they are gathered)...I think this is what Krang and I see in Murray, the lower completion under duress. Not that it would impact his draft value, just that the kid is human and we can see this on film.

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[Krangodnzr]

Man..... that Alabama game.

He threw no interceptions.
Had over 300 yards passing.
over 100 yards rushing.
and led his offense on scoring drives of 10, 10, and 14 plays. One in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarter. Not just in garbage time.

His defense however was acting like a funnel to the endzone on almost every drive.

Sure he made some bad throws. And his Comp % was below his seasons average. They were in effect a one dimensional offense the minute they got down by more than 2 scores. he had to pass. they knew it. And he still sliced and diced them up and down the field, while being a little more aggressive than normal.

Did I say he had zero INT's?

19/37....Lots of bad passes. He stunk in the 1st quarter, dooming his team to fall WAAAAAAY behind.

IF Rosen sucks, I'd rather have Tua.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Over the past few days, I watched both the Alabama and the Texas game specifically to see how Murray operated when in the clutch. He’s good. He should be an NFL quarterback. He should be the first quarterback taking in this draft in my opinion. But he is not transcendent like some are describing him to be. He has not shown that. His entire offense is superior and he benefits from that. If you look at the analytics , I think he is one of the worst QBs under pressure of the top five in this draft (I will try to find the stats again). His feet help him deal with the pressure but both Texas and Alabama games show how he loses his accuracy under duress.

he is probably the most athletically superior prospect for a quarterback that we’ve seen, I give him that. But he has flaws, and to ignore that is foolish.

Yep he looked like Rosen did last year against Alabama...except he has great players around him and the best offensive mind in college football.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Lazy research so? Guess scouts were lazy on Brady, Romo, Warner and Brees as well.

A case could be made that Mahomes is the best NFL QB right now, which is crazy after just starting a season and some of the best QBs ever still playing. Yet as a draft prospect, Mahomes was far from the best. His mechanics were all over the place. They still are. Yet he makes a strength out of this usually bad habit. Many QB prospects were very smart. Ryan Fitzpatrick of all people was probably the smartest QB ever. Arm talent wasn't a question with Mahomes, but several other big arm "wow throw" QBs failed despite their natural talents. Actually as pure prospects, Kyler Murray should be rated as a better draft prospect. Mahomes has 3 inches on him, but Murray the better footwork and - while he can make off-platform throws just like Mahomes - Murray is mechanically more sound. Again, this is all about the prospect. Nobody could've foreseen that Mahomes would shred multiple records for the Chiefs.

I thought Mahomes was going to be this good. Go back and read what I said about him that draft. Many said I was crazy, but I've been vindicated. I don't feel the same way about Murray; I think he is going to be good, maybe even as good as RW, but Mahomes is better than RW.

People flat out discounted him because he played in the Air Raid. They weren't looking at the QUALITY of his throws.

His mechanics aren't perfect, but he's one of those rare guys who can throw really well from an uneven platform.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Speaking of stats (and interesting to see how they are gathered)...I think this is what Krang and I see in Murray, the lower completion under duress. Not that it would impact his draft value, just that the kid is human and we can see this on film.

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What I saw is that after getting a consistent pass rush on Murray, that even when it wasn't there, he felt it. Phantom pass rush.

My concern is that without the benefit of having an offensive line that can keep him clean, that we will see a lot of this from Murray. And next year, all of the anti-Murray people are going to doing the "We told you so" routine, but it's a bit disingenuous because Murray just isn't as effective under duress.

To be fair, Tom Brady is the same way.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

19/37....Lots of bad passes. He stunk in the 1st quarter, dooming his team to fall WAAAAAAY behind.

IF Rosen sucks, I'd rather have Tua.

No way. Wow. You're trolling Krang? Seriously bro? Isn't the debate good enough on it's legit issues for you not to be throwing silly stuff like the above out there?

Do you know what stunk in the first quarter of that game Krang? Riley's play-calling. Seriously. The whole team came out and played like they had listened to the media for the last six weeks. About how they had no chance against AL, and the loss was far, far away from being all on Murray.

If, during the 1st quarter, Murray had throw a pick six, or even fumbled away a possession, then maybe you put more responsibility for the loss on him. But he didn't.

Finally, he was without his top big play target. H. Brown The one WR that OU really, really needed in that game, to stretch the field, and put a little fear into the AL sideline, was maybe 60%. Brown was a liability when he was on the field, dropping at least two passes, maybe more, and running crappy routes.

Stop trolling with AL game Krang. It's silly.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I thought Mahomes was going to be this good. Go back and read what I said about him that draft. Many said I was crazy, but I've been vindicated. I don't feel the same way about Murray; I think he is going to be good, maybe even as good as RW, but Mahomes is better than RW.

People flat out discounted him because he played in the Air Raid. They weren't looking at the QUALITY of his throws.

His mechanics aren't perfect, but he's one of those rare guys who can throw really well from an uneven platform.

He was who I wanted as well

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I don’t see anyway that Keim could dump Rosen for a 3rd round pick and not be fired by Bidwill.

Going back to my point made before, I cannot believe I am even discussing this, but it is what it is.

Here is the deal, no matter how much we do not want to believe it, the NFL executives do not read this board.

What I mean with that snarky comment, is that Josh Rosen is still seen as a very good NFL prospect. You have to take the bashing of Rosen you are reading here with a grain of salt.

A player like Rosen could go to the Giants, the Patriots, the Steelers, the Chargers, just to name a few teams that have older QB's.

A late first rounder or early 2nd round is a possibility, if the Cardinals go that route.

Yet, again, that puts A LOT of emphasis on Chandler Jones, and his health. Kingsbury better get 30+ points a game, because our once feared defense is going to be VERY average.

I will say it over, and over, pass rushers are hard to come by. Since I REALLY started watching the Cardinals, they have had three pass rushers.

Rice, Berry, and Jones. A few players had a good year here and there, but consistently they have only had 3 since I have watched them.

Bosa is quite impressive, and past him and Allen, you are not getting anything that would be more than finding a diamond in the rough.

That being said, to get a late 1st round pick, and another 3 or 4, you could think about getting two defensive line prospects at the end of the 1st round and beginning of the 2nd round, that would have no business being there.

Let's say the Cardinals trade Rosen, draft Murray, and walk away with Tillery from ND and Lawerence from Clem. That would be interesting.