TE needed from the draft

[Chopper0080]

We might add one TE in this draft, but it won't be until after the first three rounds. We have Housler, and we'll probably have Jim Dray (who's a good special teams player and servicable 3rd TE). There are plenty of solid Brent Celek-types who are available in the middle rounds of any draft.

Now, whether our scouting staff is able to identify those players is another question entirely.

I disagree. If Ertz or Eifert is available in the 2nd round, I think the Cards pounce. If not, I would say Dion Sims in round 3 or 4. Same goes for Kelce. Maybe Kasa in round 4 or 5. Toilolo same. I think Michael Williams is a lock for one of our 6th rounders.

 

[kerouac9]

I disagree. If Ertz or Eifert is available in the 2nd round, I think the Cards pounce. If not, I would say Dion Sims in round 3 or 4. Same goes for Kelce. Maybe Kasa in round 4 or 5. Toilolo same. I think Michael Williams is a lock for one of our 6th rounders.

How many TEs do you reasonably expect to carry into the regular season. You can say that Jim Dray sucks and should be replaced; I'll say that he SHOULD compete for his job every single year. But Housler is going to be the primary target as the tight end; drafting additional tight ends high is a breathtaking misuse of resources when we have dire needs at OLB, safety, and along the offensive line, not to mention quarterback.

There's no reason to think that this tight end class is particularly special. There are going to be series of tight ends coming out of the college ranks over the next decade that make getting these guys easy.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

How many TEs do you reasonably expect to carry into the regular season. You can say that Jim Dray sucks and should be replaced; I'll say that he SHOULD compete for his job every single year. But Housler is going to be the primary target as the tight end; drafting additional tight ends high is a breathtaking misuse of resources when we have dire needs at OLB, safety, and along the offensive line, not to mention quarterback.

There's no reason to think that this tight end class is particularly special. There are going to be series of tight ends coming out of the college ranks over the next decade that make getting these guys easy.

Beyond the fact we have far more pressing needs than another TE.

 

[Duckjake]

How many TEs do you reasonably expect to carry into the regular season. You can say that Jim Dray sucks and should be replaced; I'll say that he SHOULD compete for his job every single year. But Housler is going to be the primary target as the tight end; drafting additional tight ends high is a breathtaking misuse of resources when we have dire needs at OLB, safety, and along the offensive line, not to mention quarterback.

There's no reason to think that this tight end class is particularly special. There are going to be series of tight ends coming out of the college ranks over the next decade that make getting these guys easy.

However, the conventional wisdom is that our new Head Coach likes two TE sets and will be utilizing the TE more than CKW did in the past. Pagano and Arians took TE's in both the 2nd and 3rd rounds last season. So could that change the way the Cardinals look at the position in the draft?

 

[Assface]

I disagree. If Ertz or Eifert is available in the 2nd round, I think the Cards pounce. If not, I would say Dion Sims in round 3 or 4. Same goes for Kelce. Maybe Kasa in round 4 or 5. Toilolo same. I think Michael Williams is a lock for one of our 6th rounders.

2nd round is where we're probably targeting a QB, though.

 

[Quinn McCollum]

Arizona does not draft for needs so if the TE is the BPA in round 2 or 3 you can expect Arizona too make that TE the pick.

 

[kerouac9]

However, the conventional wisdom is that our new Head Coach likes two TE sets and will be utilizing the TE more than CKW did in the past. Pagano and Arians took TE's in both the 2nd and 3rd rounds last season. So could that change the way the Cardinals look at the position in the draft?

No, because Indy was in a unique position of having to cut ties with their Pro Bowl TE to preserve salary cap space and because his bell had been rung too many times and is part of a youth movement.

The Cards aren't in the position of having to develop both sides of a two tight end set.

 

[Southpaw]

We have our Jimmy Graham, his name is Rob Housler. Now that may be a bit presumptous, but he has a similar skill set. Where he is exposed is when he is in-line which is why he struggled last year.

For this reason, I can totally see us moving for some of the more dual threat TEs. I think if Eifert falls we will jump all over him, but other than that I look for us to grab Dion Sims, Nick Kasa, Travis Kelce in the mid rounds and then grab MIchael Williams or a simalr type player in the 6th or 7th round.

I like Housler big time. His rookie year Whis never let him on the field. In his 2nd year he had 2 make believe QBs throwing to him. Those conditions do not define his future.

 

[Chopper0080]

How many TEs do you reasonably expect to carry into the regular season. You can say that Jim Dray sucks and should be replaced; I'll say that he SHOULD compete for his job every single year. But Housler is going to be the primary target as the tight end; drafting additional tight ends high is a breathtaking misuse of resources when we have dire needs at OLB, safety, and along the offensive line, not to mention quarterback.

There's no reason to think that this tight end class is particularly special. There are going to be series of tight ends coming out of the college ranks over the next decade that make getting these guys easy.

I don't think Jim Dray sucks, but in an offense that uses two TEs more than it does a FB, Dray will be competing with Anthony Sherman for a roster spot. Dray's value has always been that he is a 3rd TE, 2nd FB and a decent special teamer. If you take out his ability to fill in at FB, and then put him up against a better player (IMO) in Sherman, I think he is gone.

As far as the TE position goes in general, Arians likes a two TE set, and we all know HOusler is garbage as a blocker. Therefore you have two options. Either draft a starting caliber in-line TE and use Housler the 2nd TE and a flexed out option, or hinge your running game on Housler making blocks in line.

I am going to guess Arians will use Housler like he used Fleener in Indy and then hopes to find a Dwayne Allen type TE somewhere in the mid rounds. However, if Ertz or Eifert come availabel round 2, they fit both the BPA philosophy and an offensive scheme need. As far as a later round TE, why not? It's a deep TE draft, and you should be able to find a decent player in the 5th or 6th round because of that depth. Cheap, skilled and a cost effective way to fill a needed roster spot if they aren't sold on Dray.

 

[Chopper0080]

Something else to consider is that FA will of course determine how we approach the draft.

An example is the S position. Kerry Rhodes is under contract and he is currently backed up by Justin Bethel who keeps a roster spot with his special teams value. The Cards have decisions to make in regards to both Rashad Johnson and Adrian Wilson. I have a hard time seeing them sign Rashad JOhnson to be anything either than the immediate or future replacement for Adrian Wilson. Re-signing Johnson gives us four Ss under contract though the Cardinals could then cut Adrian Wilson. Either way, if they do draft a S, it would be with a mid to late pick because I can't see them going into the draft without a SS on the roster.

OLB is also a concern, but you have to think the Cardinals will head into the draft with something other than just Acho and Schofield. They will add a vet OLB to hedge their bets with Schofield returning from injury, and level of that vet will determine how high they are willing to draft an OLB unless one they love falls to them.

QB is another crap shoot. A decision will be made on Kolb long before the draft and that decision will most likely determine if they will be drafting a QB. I think they will keep Kolb and therefore will not be looking to reach for a QB in a crappy draft class. Again, one could fall, but I think getting a guy like Renfree who can battle for a spot with Lindley as a developmental guy is more likley than the Cards signing Kolb and taking a QB in the 2nd or 3rd rounds.

My point on the TE position is that right now, it is the only position that I really think the Cards avoid in FA which would put it as a position of emphasis in the draft. I can see the Cards heading into the draft with only Housler and Dray as TEs on the roster and then using the deep TE class to fill out the #2 (in-line) TE and bring in competition for Dray.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't think Jim Dray sucks, but in an offense that uses two TEs more than it does a FB, Dray will be competing with Anthony Sherman for a roster spot. Dray's value has always been that he is a 3rd TE, 2nd FB and a decent special teamer. If you take out his ability to fill in at FB, and then put him up against a better player (IMO) in Sherman, I think he is gone.

As far as the TE position goes in general, Arians likes a two TE set, and we all know HOusler is garbage as a blocker. Therefore you have two options. Either draft a starting caliber in-line TE and use Housler the 2nd TE and a flexed out option, or hinge your running game on Housler making blocks in line.

I am going to guess Arians will use Housler like he used Fleener in Indy and then hopes to find a Dwayne Allen type TE somewhere in the mid rounds. However, if Ertz or Eifert come availabel round 2, they fit both the BPA philosophy and an offensive scheme need. As far as a later round TE, why not? It's a deep TE draft, and you should be able to find a decent player in the 5th or 6th round because of that depth. Cheap, skilled and a cost effective way to fill a needed roster spot if they aren't sold on Dray.

Housler's going to be the primary TE in 2013. You can bank on that. He's going into his third year in the NFL, if the former third-round pick isn't ready to start by now, then he probably shouldn't make the roster.

I believe that my boy Jim Dray is acceptable as a #2 TE, but we might want to upgrade the position if we're going to run a base 12 offense (which wouldn't suit the personnel that we have, but whatever). Dray has immense special teams value (it's possible that Dray-Bethel-Sherman are the guys that make the roster as primarily special teams players/aces), but that doesn't mean that he should be guarnateed a roster spot.

But it's ridiculous to argue at this point that TE is or should be a draft priority over QB, OG, ILB, OLB, and S--probably in that order. I don't think we're talking enough about how much trouble we could be in at ILB if we don't want Paris Lenon back. There's nothing out there in free agency--less than there is at TE.

I'm perfectly happy signing Bear Pascoe to an RFA tender and daring the Giants to match it. He's fine as a 2nd TE.

 

[MadCardDisease]

I don't think we're talking enough about how much trouble we could be in at ILB if we don't want Paris Lenon back. There's nothing out there in free agency--less than there is at TE.

I agree.

Bradley is as good as gone.

I would love to see Lenon back. He is a great leader and his teammates respect him. I know the Lenon's love the Valley and would prefer to stay here than uproot their family again. However I wouldn't be shocked to see Horton make a push for him in Cleveland.

If Lenon isn't on the new staffs radar, I'd love to see the Cardinals go after ILB Dannell Ellerbe from the Ravens. I think he could be had for a resonable price and would be an instant upgrade over Stewart Bradley. It would also save us from having to use an early draft pick on the position.

 

[kerouac9]

I agree.

Bradley is as good as gone.

I would love to see Lenon back. He is a great leader and his teammates respect him. I know the Lenon's love the Valley and would prefer to stay here than uproot their family again. However I wouldn't be shocked to see Horton make a push for him in Cleveland.

If Lenon isn't on the new staffs radar, I'd love to see the Cardinals go after ILB Dannell Ellerbe from the Ravens. I think he could be had for a resonable price and would be an instant upgrade over Stewart Bradley. It would also save us from having to use an early draft pick on the position.

Yeah... I kind of hate to see Lenon leave. Another team captain departing if that happens. Cleveland is going to have a ton of cap space, and Lenon would be a clear candidate to help Horton install his defense there.

I like Ellerbe, too, but you have to wonder if he's not going to be a guy who's looking to get paid in free agency, and could find a more lucrative opportunity than we can offer. I spent half an hour looking through Sportrac's FA database for ILBs as part of an offseason plan, and there just wasn't anything there.

The good news is that ILB is an easily replaceable position, either through the draft or free agency. Spending so much money on Stewart Bradley was a terrible mistake.

 

[MadCardDisease]

The good news is that ILB is an easily replaceable position, either through the draft or free agency. Spending so much money on Stewart Bradley was a terrible mistake.

Tossing that much money at Bradley was insane. Ranks right up there with how much money we gave to Colledge and Snyder to play guard.

 

[Mulli]

They seem to make terrible mistakes with the greatest of ease. They should start doing the opposite of what they think they need to do.

 

[LuckyNumber11]

I like Kyle Juzsczyk out of Harvard as a sleeper in the later rounds. He needs to add some weight but the guys a truck and has soft hands. Kind of like an Aaron Hernandez type

 

[Duckjake]

Housler's going to be the primary TE in 2013. You can bank on that. He's going into his third year in the NFL, if the former third-round pick isn't ready to start by now, then he probably shouldn't make the roster.

I believe that my boy Jim Dray is acceptable as a #2 TE, but we might want to upgrade the position if we're going to run a base 12 offense (which wouldn't suit the personnel that we have, but whatever). Dray has immense special teams value (it's possible that Dray-Bethel-Sherman are the guys that make the roster as primarily special teams players/aces), but that doesn't mean that he should be guarnateed a roster spot.

But it's ridiculous to argue at this point that TE is or should be a draft priority over QB, OG, ILB, OLB, and S--probably in that order. I don't think we're talking enough about how much trouble we could be in at ILB if we don't want Paris Lenon back. There's nothing out there in free agency--less than there is at TE.

I'm perfectly happy signing Bear Pascoe to an RFA tender and daring the Giants to match it. He's fine as a 2nd TE.

I just can't see the Cards going with a guy who can't block at all as their #1 TE. And Dray as #2 in an offense that is supposedly going to feature two TE's. What does Dray do on special teams that makes him so valuable?

As for Lenon how much of a market is there for 35/36 year old ILB's when it is such an easy position to fill with younger guys?

 

[Chopper0080]

Housler's going to be the primary TE in 2013. You can bank on that. He's going into his third year in the NFL, if the former third-round pick isn't ready to start by now, then he probably shouldn't make the roster.

I believe that my boy Jim Dray is acceptable as a #2 TE, but we might want to upgrade the position if we're going to run a base 12 offense (which wouldn't suit the personnel that we have, but whatever). Dray has immense special teams value (it's possible that Dray-Bethel-Sherman are the guys that make the roster as primarily special teams players/aces), but that doesn't mean that he should be guarnateed a roster spot.

But it's ridiculous to argue at this point that TE is or should be a draft priority over QB, OG, ILB, OLB, and S--probably in that order. I don't think we're talking enough about how much trouble we could be in at ILB if we don't want Paris Lenon back. There's nothing out there in free agency--less than there is at TE.

I'm perfectly happy signing Bear Pascoe to an RFA tender and daring the Giants to match it. He's fine as a 2nd TE.

I am saying that we will be running a base 12 offense if Arians history has anything to say about it. It helps the QB diagnose the defense, helps in protection schemes, and helps disguise the running game. Because of that belief, we are going to need an in-line TE and neither Housler or Dray look to be that guy. Housler will be the #1 TE, but he showed in 2012 that he can't be an in-line TE. From what I have seen from Arians, and with how the Colts drafted last year to help him set up his offense, he is going to use a 2nd to 5th round pick unless something changes in free agency. I would guess he will target a guy like Dion Sims in the 4th round, but as I said earlier, if either Ertz or Eifert are available when we pick in round 2, I think we jump on them.

Now, if we aren't running 12 personnel, this goes out the window. Same if we add a TE in free agency. But I think we will be running 12 personel a ton and that we will not be addressing the TE position in FA. That is where I am coming from.

 

[kerouac9]

I just can't see the Cards going with a guy who can't block at all as their #1 TE. And Dray as #2 in an offense that is supposedly going to feature two TE's. What does Dray do on special teams that makes him so valuable?

As for Lenon how much of a market is there for 35/36 year old ILB's when it is such an easy position to fill with younger guys?

There are lots of teams that have good offenses and feature tight ends who can't (or refuse to) block in the #1 role: New England did it for half the year when Gronk went out, Green Bay, New Orleans, the Giants, the Eagles, Minnesota, Houston, etc. There's no reason that the Cards can't have a successful offense with Housler as the primary TE and another guy out there who puts a little more effort into blocking.

If Dray is going to be an in-line blocker, he can be fine. He can also be a fine outlet receiver. He's an excellent player as a blocker on kick returns and in the punt and kick return game. He's a valuable player.

Contra Chopper above, there's nothing special personnel-wise that the 2TE offense provides--there's no real tactical advantage. There's a strategic advantage, because when you have at least one tight end adept at both blocking and receiving (such as Gronk or Jason Witten or Heath Miller), you force many opposing defenses to commit to defending the run or the pass by the personnel they deploy--a 3rd linebacker vs. a 5th defensive back. A quarterback can then easily audible to a run or a pass that immediately presents personnel mismatches.

I'm going to argue that getting a 2nd TE on the field will usually come at the expense of getting a superior option off the field, either Andre Roberts or Michael Floyd. That's especially true if you're talking about a rookie tight end. If Arians and Moore are going to preach that they're going to tailor their system to the personnel available, they'll be running an offense primarily with 11 personnel for the 4 games or fewer that Ryan Williams is going to be healthy but ineffective and 20 the approximately 8 games where Beanie Wells will be healthy and effective.

Running a 12 personnel base offense is explicitly sacrificing quality personnel for what you believe conforms to your "system." If they do, it will be quite telling.

As for Lenon, I don't doubt that he would come back; I just have some doubt that the Cards would really want him back, since he was the closest defensive player to Ray Horton, who was summarily run out of town in order to establish a clear chain of command.

 

[Duckjake]

If Dray is going to be an in-line blocker, he can be fine. He can also be a fine outlet receiver. He's an excellent player as a blocker on kick returns and in the punt and kick return game. He's a valuable player.

Are you trying to say that a guy who is getting blown up every time I watch him try to block and has 7 receptions in three years in the NFL is suddenly going to become a fine in-line blocker and outlet receiver?

What? Does someone on the new coaching staff have a magic wand?

 

[Chopper0080]

There are lots of teams that have good offenses and feature tight ends who can't (or refuse to) block in the #1 role: New England did it for half the year when Gronk went out, Green Bay, New Orleans, the Giants, the Eagles, Minnesota, Houston, etc. There's no reason that the Cards can't have a successful offense with Housler as the primary TE and another guy out there who puts a little more effort into blocking.

If Dray is going to be an in-line blocker, he can be fine. He can also be a fine outlet receiver. He's an excellent player as a blocker on kick returns and in the punt and kick return game. He's a valuable player.

Contra Chopper above, there's nothing special personnel-wise that the 2TE offense provides--there's no real tactical advantage. There's a strategic advantage, because when you have at least one tight end adept at both blocking and receiving (such as Gronk or Jason Witten or Heath Miller), you force many opposing defenses to commit to defending the run or the pass by the personnel they deploy--a 3rd linebacker vs. a 5th defensive back. A quarterback can then easily audible to a run or a pass that immediately presents personnel mismatches.

I'm going to argue that getting a 2nd TE on the field will usually come at the expense of getting a superior option off the field, either Andre Roberts or Michael Floyd. That's especially true if you're talking about a rookie tight end. If Arians and Moore are going to preach that they're going to tailor their system to the personnel available, they'll be running an offense primarily with 11 personnel for the 4 games or fewer that Ryan Williams is going to be healthy but ineffective and 20 the approximately 8 games where Beanie Wells will be healthy and effective.

Running a 12 personnel base offense is explicitly sacrificing quality personnel for what you believe conforms to your "system." If they do, it will be quite telling.

As for Lenon, I don't doubt that he would come back; I just have some doubt that the Cards would really want him back, since he was the closest defensive player to Ray Horton, who was summarily run out of town in order to establish a clear chain of command.

New England rarely puts Aaron Hernandez in line and normally has him in motion so teams can't key on him. (Exactly how I think the Cardinals should use Housler) The Giants and Vikings had Martellus Bennett and Kyle Rudolf as their primary TE, and both are very good at run blocking. Green Bay and New Orleans have great QBs, tons of receiving weapons, and did not run the ball very well in 2012 so I don't believe they emphasize the more physical aspect of the TE position.

It is a balanced formation that prevents teams from overloading a specific side of a formation. It helps prevent tendencies as you can arguably attack either side of the formation with equal numbers. It spreads out the defensive front which limits defensive front stunts and makes blocking assignments easier for linemen to diagnose. I would call that a "tactical" advantage, but "strategic" works as well.

 

[Mulli]

Hey, when do we start seeing the "this is the year that the Cardinals should start going to a run first offense" threads?