Team Structure Analysis

[slinslin]

For this purpose I will count players that were traded before the end of their rookie season just like draft picks but I will put that number in brackets.

I will not count players that were drafted by the team but traded and later acquired through free agency.

I will only count players that average more than 10 minutes per game and I will not count players that might have averaged 10 minutes per game but only played every 4th game (eg James Anderson - Spurs, Zabian Dowdell - Suns)

Chicago - 5
Franchise Player - Derrick Rose
Stars Drafted - Luol Deng, Joakim Noah
Role Players - Taj Gibson, Omer Asik

San Antonio - 7
Franchise Player - Tim Duncan
Stars - Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili
Role Players - George Hill, Dajuan Blair, Gary Neal, Tiago Splitter

Miami Heat - 4
Franchise Player - Dwyane Wade
Stars Drafted - None
Role Players - Udonis Haslem, Mario Chalmers, Joel Anthony

Los Angeles Lakers - 2
Franchise Player - Kobe Bryant
Stars - Andrew Bynum

Dallas Mavericks - 3
Franchise Player - Dirk Nowitzki
Stars - None
Role Players - JJ Barea, Rodrigue Beaubois

Boston Celtics - 3
Franchise Player - Paul Pierce
Stars - Rajon Rondo
Role Players - Glen Davis (+Kendrick Perkins for part of the season)

Oklahoma Thunder - 6
Franchise Player - Kevin Durant
Stars - Russell Westbrook
Role Players - James Harden, Serge Ibaka, Nick Collison, Eric Maynor (+ Jeff Green for part of the season)

Orlando Magic - 3
Franchise Player - Dwight Howard
Stars - Jameer Nelson
Role Players - JJ Redick (+Marcin Gortat for part of the season)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary of the top 8
Franchise Players Drafted - 8 Average 1
Stars Drafted - 8 Average 1
Role Players Drafted - 18 Average 2.25

Not to mention that many teams drafted many more quality players that they used as assets Boston was the most active doing that (Jeff Green, Kendrick Perkins, Al Jefferson, Devin Harris, Josh Howard)


............

I will add more but it is tedious work but here are your Phoenix Suns in comparison.

Phoenix Suns - 1
Franchise Players - None
Stars - None
Role Players - Robin Lopez (+Goran Dragic for part of the season)

The way things are going it is possible the Suns counter might say 0 for next season. They would only have to do one of the stupid trades people are suggesting like Lopez, Pietrus and our lottery pick for Paul Millsap and there you go..

When the Suns were at their best.. 62-20

2004-2005 Phoenix Suns - 5
Franchise Players - Amare Stoudemire
Stars - Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion
Role Players - Leandro Barbosa, Casey Jacobsen

Whoever says the draft is not the way to build your team is just out of touch with reality. Even the argument that the Suns have been bad at drafting the last 5 years really is not an argument because if they want to get better again they simply need to get better at drafting. We used to be one of the best teams in the draft but now we are one of the worst teams. What is the reason for this? Could be attributed to Rex Chapman leaving the scouting department and working for Denver now I think?
Or did Sarver cut the scouting budget?

 

[Covert Rain]

Bynum averages 11.3, 9.4
Noah averages 11.7. 10.4

Gortat averages 12.9. 9.3 and allows fewer opposing center points per 48 than Noah, has more double doubles than both players despite only starting half the season.

You call Bynum and Noah "stars" but leave off Gortat, then say the Suns counter is 0 but manage to call out Lopez out of all the Suns players as a role player?!?!?

LOL. I can't take this thread seriously as any kind of legit analysis. Nor does this convince me the only way the Suns become legitimate again is depending on the unreliable draft over the next 5 seasons as a way to get there.

Same o Same o slinslin.....devalue Gortat try to prop up Lopez.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Bynum averages 11.3, 9.4
Noah averages 11.7. 10.4

Gortat averages 12.9. 9.3 and allows fewer opposing center points per 48 than Noah, has more double doubles than both players despite only starting half the season.

You call Bynum and Noah "stars" but leave off Gortat, then say the Suns counter is 0 but manage to call out Lopez out of all the Suns players as a role player?!?!?

LOL. I can't take this thread seriously as any kind of legit analysis. Nor does this convince me the only way the Suns become legitimate again is depending on the unreliable draft over the next 5 seasons as a way to get there.

Same o Same o slinslin.....devalue Gortat try to prop up Lopez.

now you're making too much of Slin's issue with Gortat. all the players Slin listed were drafted by their teams. that's the crux of his argument is you need to draft well.

 

[slinslin]

Bynum averages 11.3, 9.4
Noah averages 11.7. 10.4

Gortat averages 12.9. 9.3 and allows fewer opposing center points per 48 than Noah, has more double doubles than both players despite only starting half the season.

You call Bynum and Noah "stars" but leave off Gortat, then say the Suns counter is 0 but manage to call out Lopez out of all the Suns players as a role player?!?!?

LOL. I can't take this thread seriously as any kind of legit analysis. Nor does this convince me the only way the Suns become legitimate again is depending on the unreliable draft over the next 5 seasons as a way to get there.

Same o Same o slinslin.....devalue Gortat try to prop up Lopez.

You need to learn to read.

Gortat wasn't acquired through the draft and Lopez plays more than 10 minutes per game so he is in the role player category.

And please don't even compare Gortat to Noah or Bynum. Gortat has proven himself over barely 3 months on a bad team with Nash feeding him.

Noah has averaged a true double-double on a good team for 2 straight years and he has not played more minutes than Gortat in your cherry picked Suns only statistics.

Bynum has 4 straight years of averaging AT LEAST 11+/8+ and about 2 blocks in less minutes than Gortat on a much better team on a better rebounding team at a slower pace. Best was 13+/10+ and 2+ blocks in 28 mpg (Gortat played more minutes for the Suns at a much higher pace with worse rebounders around him)

Now factor in your argument that the Bulls plays at a much slower pace and are one of the elite rebounding teams and Noah's stats become that much more meaningful compared to Gortat.

 

[Covert Rain]

You need to learn to read.

Gortat wasn't acquired through the draft and Lopez plays more than 10 minutes per game so he is in the role player category.

And please don't even compare Gortat to Noah or Bynum. Gortat has proven himself over barely 3 months on a bad team with Nash feeding him.

Noah has averaged a true double-double on a good team for 2 straight years and he has not played more minutes than Gortat in your cherry picked Suns only statistics.

Bynum has 4 straight years of averaging AT LEAST 11+/8+ and about 2 blocks in less minutes than Gortat on a much better team.

Now factor in your argument that the Bulls plays at a much slower pace and are one of the elite rebounding teams and Noah's stats become that much more meaningful compared to Gortat.

Oh I didn't have any problem reading. Even when you tried to hide your little dig at Gortat while trying to prop up Lopez again.

Nobody said anything about Gortat being drafted. Also, what difference does it make how a player is acquired if his stats stack up against other players? I don't care how long a player as been with team X. If another player puts up similar numbers in the current analysis it doesn't matter who played longer with team X. This is a current analysis...no?

Once again, you are the only one cherry picking (+/-, self defining "meaningful"). How is showing CENTER STATS AS A STARTER...cherry picking? It's not or you don't know the meaning.

Now because you can't backup your arguments your using words like "meaningful" and "true double double". When the stats say Gortat compare to those players which is a FACT whether you like it or not.

Stop already.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh I didn't have any problem reading. Even when you tried to hide your little dig at Gortat while trying to prop up Lopez again.

Nobody said anything about Gortat being drafted. Also, what difference does it make how a player is acquired if his stats stack up against other players? I don't care how long a player as been with team X. If another player puts up similar numbers in the current analysis it doesn't matter who played longer with team X. This is a current analysis...no?

Once again, you are the only one cherry picking (+/-, self defining "meaningful"). How is showing CENTER STATS AS A STARTER...cherry picking? It's not or you don't know the meaning.

Now because you can't backup your arguments your using words like "meaningful" and "true double double".

Stop already.

man, i think you're reading WAYYYYYYYYY too much into his initial post, which was all about needing to draft players.

 

[slinslin]

DarenG, you don't get it, it's pointless.

Noah and Bynum have proven themselves over several years on overall better teams, on overall two of the best rebounding team and put up more impressive numbers at a slower pace. Gortat has 2 good months on a bad team, at a high pace, with bad rebounders and being Nashs #1 target in pick and rolls.

But all that is irrelevant because GORTAT has NOTHING to do with this thread.

 

[Covert Rain]

DarenG, you don't get it, it's pointless.

The problem is I do get it. Your not that good at hiding your bias.

 

[slinslin]

Maybe you should take off your homer goggles then if you think Gortat is as good or even better than Joakim Noah or Andrew Bynum.

 

[desertdawg]

Maybe you should take off your homer goggles then if you think Gortat is as good or even better than Joakim Noah or Andrew Bynum.

I'd take Gortat, he doesn't get hurt and he will have better #s than both of them next year, especially if Nash stays. Even if we didn't draft him.

 

[Covert Rain]

Maybe you should take off your homer goggles then if you think Gortat is as good or even better than Joakim Noah or Andrew Bynum.

Homer goggles would imply that I can't see the teams short cummings because I am a Suns fan. Homer goggles would imply that despite statistical FACTS I say the opposite just because I love a team or a player.

Read my posts...I have blasted players, this organizations front office and have been extremely critical of Gentry all season long.

FAIL

So what is your excuse for propping up Lopez and devaluing Gortat all the time?

 

[slinslin]

And none of that makes you any less of a Gortat homer...

And? That makes you anything less of a Gortat homer when you want to argue that Gortat is as good or better than Noah/Bynum or call him a top10 or top5 center based on averaging 13/9 for a under .500 team, at one of the highest paces in the league, on a bad rebounding team and alongside the best passer in the game?
2 good months under these circustances are not enough.
It's like saying DeMar DeRozan is a top 25 player in the league because he averaged 20/4/2 post allstar game on the Raptors.

Nowhere in this thread am I even giving Lopez props.

 

[Covert Rain]

And none of that makes you any less of a Gortat homer...

And? That makes you anything less of a Gortat homer when you want to argue that Gortat is as good or better than Noah/Bynum or call him a top10 or top5 center based on averaging 13/9 for a under .500 team, at one of the highest paces in the league, on a bad rebounding team and alongside the best passer in the game?
2 good months under these circustances are not enough.
It's like saying DeMar DeRozan is a top 25 player in the league because he averaged 20/4/2 post allstar game on the Raptors.

Nowhere in this thread am I even giving Lopez props.

Being a Gortat homer would imply that I am saying he is a superstar when it is on record I have said he is not. Being a Gortat homer would be taking a Center who statistically an average center and saying he is better than that.

Being a Gortat homer would imply that before he even played a single minute in a Suns uniform I declared him the "next something". Go back and read my posts right after the trade. I was skeptical of Gortat and was not convinced he would be as good as he turned out to be. He surprised the hell out of me.

The difference between you and I is that I am giving him credit for what he has done this season and acknowledging that since the trade he stacks up against the very best centers in the league. I have used facts to back those statements up where you have basically gone out of your way to dismiss facts or downplay him because you hate him for some reason.

Also, you called out Lopez out of all the role players on this team and don't pretend like you didn't argue on Lopez's behalf for weeks and weeks after the trade despite Gortat's success.

Take this to the bank. If Gortat comes out and sucks next year like Lopez did, I will be all over Gortat just like I was Lopez. That is not the definition of homer goggles.

Again...FAIL.

 

[desertdawg]

And none of that makes you any less of a Gortat homer...

And? That makes you anything less of a Gortat homer when you want to argue that Gortat is as good or better than Noah/Bynum or call him a top10 or top5 center based on averaging 13/9 for a under .500 team, at one of the highest paces in the league, on a bad rebounding team and alongside the best passer in the game?
2 good months under these circustances are not enough.
It's like saying DeMar DeRozan is a top 25 player in the league because he averaged 20/4/2 post allstar game on the Raptors.

Nowhere in this thread am I even giving Lopez props.

I'm gonna laugh my ass off next year when Gortat makes a fool out of you...just sayin.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Also, you called out Lopez out of all the role players on this team

dude he called out Lopez because HE'S THE ONLY ONE WHO WAS DRAFTED BY THE SUNS.

That's what the point of this entire thread is. look at the iother role players he listed for other teams... they're just as scrubby as Lopez, but drafted by their respective teams nonetheless.

you're hijacking this thread.

 

[Covert Rain]

dude he called out Lopez because HE'S THE ONLY ONE WHO WAS DRAFTED BY THE SUNS.

That's what the point of this entire thread is. look at the iother role players he listed for other teams... they're just as scrubby as Lopez, but drafted by their respective teams nonetheless.

you're hijacking this thread.

I understand the context of the thread but he indicating the Suns counter would be ZERO come next season. In another words indicating the Suns cupboards would be bare because we didn't draft younger players.

My point about Lopez is that he was called out as a role player and I would argue that he wasn't even that for most of the season. Lopez despite a good game here or there was utterly useless as a Center. In other words he was "propped up".

But I digress. I will leave it alone.

 

[slinslin]

When you play 14 mpg you are obviously a role player for that team..

 

[Covert Rain]

When you play 14 mpg you are obviously a role player for that team..

slinslin I understand what you are trying to say but as you know teams play players when they have nothing behind legit players all the time. It's out of necessity.

I guess it depends on your definition of role player. To me legit role players are player who consistently contribute off the bench. That was not Lopez this year.

So...to get this thread back on topic (sorry people my fault)......slinslin....if you had control of the Suns draft for the next 5 years...what would you do?

What players on the roster do you keep?

Which players to you try and trade?

What positions do you draft for in this draft?

Keep in mind that if your draft picks are busts or don't show potential, without valuable vets....you have ZERO bargaining come trade time.

Do you really think this team can build strictly through the draft over the next 5 seasons? Isn't it a leap of faith for this front office to assume they can draft at all?

 

[Suns_fan69]

That's all fine and dandy, but of the lottery teams, how many of their franchise players, stars and role players were drafted by them?

I'll list the bottom 8 teams to mirror your top 8. I'm unclear how you defined Franchise Players vs Stars vs Role players but I used my best judgement, feel free to debate.

Minnesota: 3
Franchise Players: None
Stars: Kevin Love
Role Players: Johnny Flynn, Wesley Johnson

Cleveland: 3
Franchise Players: None
Stars: None (the way JJ Hickson is revered here though maybe I should list him here)
Role Players: JJ Hickson, Daniel Gibson, Anderson Varejao,

Toronto: 5
Franchise Players: Andrea Bargnani (or Demar Derozan, I think he'll be the focal point in the future)
Stars: Demar Derozan
Role Players: Jose Calderon (Rookie FA signing but has spent entire NBA career with TO), Ed Davis, Sonny Weems

Washington:5
Franchise Players: John Wall
Stars: Javale Mcgee (this might be generous)
Role Players: Andray Blatche, Nick Young, Trevor Booker

Sacramento: 5
Franchise Players: DeMarcus Cousins
Stars: Tyreke Evans,
Role Players: Omri Casspi, Jason Thompson, Francisco Garcia

I should also count Pooh Jeter who fits your requirements (62 appearances @ 13.8 mpg) but I won't

New Jersey Nets: 1
Franchise Players: None
Stars: Brook Lopez
Role Players: None

Detroit Pistons: 5
Franchise Players: None
Stars: Tayshuan Prince
Role Players: Greg Monroe, Rodney Stuckey, Jason Maxiell, Austin Daye

LA Clippers: 6
Franchise Players: Blake Griffin
Stars: Eric Gordon
Role Players: DeAndre Jordan, Al Farouq Aminu, Eric Bledsoe, Chris Kaman

Kaman was injured for a big chunk of the year but i think we can all agree he's a rotation player when healthy

------

You can't just show the best case scenarios without showing the other end.

 

[sunsfan88]

Someone quickly tell me the point of this thread or what its about.

The posts are too long and I'm too lazy to read through it at 11:30.

 

[slinslin]

That's all fine and dandy, but of the lottery teams, how many of their franchise players, stars and role players were drafted by them?

I'll list the bottom 8 teams to mirror your top 8. I'm unclear how you defined Franchise Players vs Stars vs Role players but I used my best judgement, feel free to debate.

Minnesota: 3
Franchise Players: None
Stars: Kevin Love
Role Players: Johnny Flynn, Wesley Johnson

Cleveland: 3
Franchise Players: None
Stars: None (the way JJ Hickson is revered here though maybe I should list him here)
Role Players: JJ Hickson, Daniel Gibson, Anderson Varejao,

Toronto: 5
Franchise Players: Andrea Bargnani (or Demar Derozan, I think he'll be the focal point in the future)
Stars: Demar Derozan
Role Players: Jose Calderon (Rookie FA signing but has spent entire NBA career with TO), Ed Davis, Sonny Weems

Washington:5
Franchise Players: John Wall
Stars: Javale Mcgee (this might be generous)
Role Players: Andray Blatche, Nick Young, Trevor Booker

Sacramento: 5
Franchise Players: DeMarcus Cousins
Stars: Tyreke Evans,
Role Players: Omri Casspi, Jason Thompson, Francisco Garcia

I should also count Pooh Jeter who fits your requirements (62 appearances @ 13.8 mpg) but I won't

New Jersey Nets: 1
Franchise Players: None
Stars: Brook Lopez
Role Players: None

Detroit Pistons: 5
Franchise Players: None
Stars: Tayshuan Prince
Role Players: Greg Monroe, Rodney Stuckey, Jason Maxiell, Austin Daye

LA Clippers: 6
Franchise Players: Blake Griffin
Stars: Eric Gordon
Role Players: DeAndre Jordan, Al Farouq Aminu, Eric Bledsoe, Chris Kaman

Kaman was injured for a big chunk of the year but i think we can all agree he's a rotation player when healthy

------

You can't just show the best case scenarios without showing the other end.

I don't see how this counters my point though?

Except the Wizards and Clippers none of those teams drafted a franchise level player. Maybe Sacramento but the odds are that these 3 teams will be in the playoffs within the next 2 years and for many years following that if they keep together those players.

Bargnani is more of a role player than a franchise player.

Franchise players 2 - Wall/Griffin
Stars 6 - Love, Evans, Cousins, DeRozan, Gordon, Lopez (not going to count McGee or Prince)
Role players 24

For the top 8 it was 8 franchise players, 8 stars and 18 role players. So yeah drafting well is essential that is exactly my point.

We can also agree that the teams that are fare well in this bottom 8 list have bright futures - Washington, Clippers, Sacramento

We can also agree that the teams in this bottom 8 that do not fare well in this list have long ways to go...

Cleveland - though they have 2 top 6 picks that should help out a lot
New Jersey - they have a lot of homework to do to rebuild around Deron Williams if he signs an extension, they gave up their pick to Utah
Toronto - they have a top 3 pick
Detroit - They are kind of like us, no stars, some expense mediocre players,
Minnesota - They have a top 3 pick and a top 5 pick waiting in europe

If you set hard standards you could say that the only drafted star quality player on these 5 teams is Kevin Love and that is it. Brook Lopez is debatable. DeRozan only had like 2 very good months yet and Bargnani is barely better than Channing Frye and Toronto fans wish they had never signed him to that contract I think.

 

[Griffin]

The Suns are really in a tough position here. They can indeed trade Nash as many suggest and suffer probably the worst few seasons in franchise history in hopes that they can eventually build a contender through lottery picks like OKC did. But just as likely (or as I would argue more likely) they'd end up with a team as competitive as the Clippers, T-Wolves or the Kings who took the same route, intentionally or not. Or they can try to make the most out of whatever Nash has left, add a few pieces if possible, and try to overachieve like they did in 2006 and 2010. How likely is that? Probably not very likely either.

One thing to point out about the original post is that of the teams listed only OKC truly built their team through the draft as suggested. The other teams, except for the Lakers who traded for Kobe, all drafted their "franchise player" with a high pick they obtained after a bad season or two, but the other key players they acquired either by trading for picks, trading for players, non-lottery picks, or free agency. Also, most teams that have high lottery picks every year are not on that list, because most of the time this approach fails due to poor scouting, mismanagement, cheap owner, or bad luck.

The Suns were on the right path when, after missing the playoffs for the first time in 14 years, they drafted Stoudemire with their own 9th pick. This is on par with most of the top teams today who acquired their best player this way. But the rest of that 62-win team was filled through earlier trades for draft picks (Marion, Barbosa), trades for young players (Joe Johnson), and free agents (Nash, Quintin Richardson). The Suns only used one own lottery pick to rebuild. Unfortunately, the ownership did not give that team more than a season together before pulling the plug and replacing more than half the roster.

There is no doubt that the draft is very important. The Suns would have been in a much better position now if they drafted better over the last six years and not sold a bunch of picks. But you can still accomplish a lot with middle and late first round picks and by trading for picks and for recently drafted players.

 

[slinslin]

It really does not matter if it is their own pick or not. Clearly the Suns drafted Marion and Barbosa.
Just like the Lakers drafted Kobe. It it futile to say they did not because he never played a game for another team.

How can you say only OKC built their team through the draft? What did San Antonio do? They have 8 draft picks in their top 12.

Even Boston did build through the draft. Pierce, Rondo, Davis... plus Ray Allen was acquired by trading #5 for him, Jeff Green was re-acquired by trading Kenrick Perkins, Kevin Garnett was acquired by trading Al Jefferson.

The only thing that you get for free is your own draft pick every year. And what seperates good and bad teams is making the most of the picks if you keep them on your team when you strike a homerun or use the value assets you gained through drafting well to surround existing pieces with better talent.

If the Suns want to be a good team again they must start to draft well again OR they have to sign cheap low risk high reward free agents but that is even more unlikely. How else are they going to get more assets?


The 2004-2005 Suns that won 62 games, it is ironic. They basically traded the #7 pick (Deng or Iguodala) just so they could have 2M$ more caproom to give Quentin Richardson more money and they gave it to a Bulls teams in exchange for a next years pick when the Bulls made the playoffs. Then traded more picks to get rid off Richardson for Kurt Thomas a year later and then traded more picks to get rid off Kurt Thomas. YUCK.

If they did the right thing and added another piece through the draft they would have been better in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008......

 

[Griffin]

It really does not matter if it is their own pick or not. Clearly the Suns drafted Marion and Barbosa.
Just like the Lakers drafted Kobe. It it futile to say they did not because he never played a game for another team.

It matters how the pick is obtained. My argument is that you do not need to lose a bunch of games every year in order to get the picks needed to get quality players on your roster. The Suns only used one high draft pick of their own to build that team. Lakers used one to get Bynum and got another in a trade to draft Kobe.

How can you say only OKC built their team through the draft? What did San Antonio do? They have 8 draft picks in their top 12.

I should have said: only OKC build their team through lottery, or more precisely, through their own lottery picks. For them to be able to do that, they had to lose a lot of games every year for a few seasons though. SA only had one bad season and lucked out getting the top pick and their franchise player that year.

If the Suns want to be a good team again they must start to draft well again OR they have to sign cheap low risk high reward free agents but that is even more unlikely. How else are they going to get more assets?

No doubt about that. Like I said, the Suns would have been in a much better position now had they used their draft picks to improve the team as opposed to shedding salary or selling them in order to pay salaries for players already on the roster.

My point is that you can rebuild without a bunch of own lottery picks (which implies without having to lose a bunch of games every year for half a decade), so long as you use your assets appropriately, including lower draft picks. The Suns have failed to do that ever since Sarver took over.

 

[slinslin]

And that does not change the argument at all.

It makes no difference what picks you use. You have to draft well. When was the last time the Suns even acquired and used a first round pick? Barbosa? That was even before Sarver..

How do you suggest the Suns acquire draft picks to increase the assets of this team? We have almost no valueable assets on the team.

That is what happens when you a team keeps on selling draft picks for nothing but cash. Not only was that a failure basketball wise when we were close to win it all but it drained all the value that we had on the roster.

Then you add in that we let our most valueable piece go without getting ANYTHING back and isntead signed Childress and Warrick while Utah got Derrick Favors and a high lottery pick and more picks for Derrick Williams and Denver got a lottery pick, a good player on a rookie contract and multiple picks for Carmelo and you see why our entire front office deserves to be fired.