Thank you Danny Bautista

[schillingfan]

Well, what did you want them to do? Where would you have stuck him? He couldnt be in the minors, and he couldnt make the team, what does that leave other than trading him? They had what looked like at the time far better options, he was not only coming off of an injury but undoubtably terrible both numbers wise and in terms of his "stuff" (his fastball was only in the mid-80s, no breaking ball at all at that time, although he did end up turning that around a bit). There was absolutely no roster spot for him, and the Diamondbacks were about to undoubtably lose him for nothing. They had to trade him for whatever they could get since he obviously was not going to come close to making the team.

But, the situation of having no spot for him is both untrue and D-Backs created. It can't be right that they had no roster spot, because they traded him for another pitcher who they put on the 25 man roster. So, by definition, there was room for him as a pitcher.

They did not want him, not they didn't have room. In their evaluation he was not good enough. In my opinion they gave up too soon. Why would you trade a young out of options pitcher in order to get a left-handed reliever on a team that had no hope of making the playoffs. Anyone who believed they would compete last year was clearly delusional.

The right thing to do was to keep JPatt and see if he was going to make it as a major league starter. They had invested $10 mil in him as a signing bonus. Clearly he shouldn't be discarded for a bad lefty specialist.

They created the situation themselves by their stupid moves. So you can't say they had no choice. They backed themselves into their own corner. As I said, they had to put Casey Daigle on the roster because they had no other choice. Well they had a choice that they foolishly traded away.

I give no sympathy or excuse for the horrible moves the D-Backs made last winter.

 

[Lefty]

I believe someone said Terrero is in the same position as JPatt was - out of options, not good enough to make a case for a starting spot, so he is also likely to be a roster-spot dumpee.

That's funny because I have read many posters who have said to get rid of Terrero because he is not a discipline hitter. I for one hope they keep him because only giving him one year and giving up on him is wrong.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

But, the situation of having no spot for him is both untrue and D-Backs created. It can't be right that they had no roster spot, because they traded him for another pitcher who they put on the 25 man roster. So, by definition, there was room for him as a pitcher.

They did not have a roster spot for a guy that was far down the depth chart of starting pitchers with a bum arm that would have taken months for him to be completely recooperated (if ever). They did, however, have a roster spot for a lefty specialist. There technically could have been room, but not for what Patterson had to offer. I really dont see what the hold up here is, he was NOT going to make the team in that point of time, therefore he would have been lost for free.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

I believe someone said Terrero is in the same position as JPatt was - out of options, not good enough to make a case for a starting spot, so he is also likely to be a roster-spot dumpee.

This is true, but the Diamondbacks would only have two outfielders under contract if they traded Terrero, however, so it is unlikely for them to trade him at this point in time.

 

[Moose Lady]

That's funny because I have read many posters who have said to get rid of Terrero because he is not a discipline hitter. I for one hope they keep him because only giving him one year and giving up on him is wrong.

Wasn't it last year that he first came up or the year before? If only last year, then how can he be out of options. And yeah, if they give up on him then they are doing the same stupid thing that they did with Lyle.

And KLL, I felt the same way as you with regards to Capuano. But the one that I regret and still do, is Lyle Overbay. IF we had kept we wouldn't have had a problem at 1st. They didn't even give him a chance. 3 months is all they gave him.

 

[KingLouieLouie]

And KLL, I felt the same way as you with regards to Capuano. But the one that I regret and still do, is Lyle Overbay. IF we had kept we wouldn't have had a problem at 1st. They didn't even give him a chance. 3 months is all they gave him.

Overbay's performance last season was a fluke (he dropped off considerably in the 2nd half).... Plus, we can't overlook that the Dbacks had to include Overbay in the deal for him to fill the void of the departing Sexson.... If Sexson didn't sustain his injury (and eventually lose him to FA), then we'd be discussing that deal (IE Overbay's inclusion) in an entirely different perspective...

 

[BC867]

... Lyle Overbay. IF we had kept we wouldn't have had a problem at 1st. They didn't even give him a chance. 3 months is all they gave him.

If Bob Brenly had honored the concept of recognizing a ballplayer's skills, then allowing him to follow through (as Milwaukee did), Lyle might still be here.

Hitting doubles and driving in runs is better than trying for homeruns and driving in hardly any.

It's the same approach that Showalter used on Travis Lee before he was ready, and ruined his career. And now, Shea Hillenbrand is gone. Same type of hitter -- hit 'em into the gap and drive in runs.

If Chad Tracy tries to hit fly balls every time up this season, the same thing will happen to him that happened to Overbay.

 

[AZZenny]

Moose lady - I think you are right about Terrero's options, although I had read a couple places he was out - he was up in 2003, for 5 games, and up in 2004 - so unless I'm forgetting one of the arcane aspects of options, he should still be OK one more time around. But being used as a back-up OF isn't going to be good for him, either.

They will consider Hammock and possibly Hairston as back-up OF (though I think they'll trade Hairston if they can) and they are still planning to pick up a CF, apparently. I'm sure there'll be a couple old OF back-ups added to the bench before ST - which starts in a month.

BC - Matt Williams has hinted that it wasn't that BB tried to change Lyle's approach at the plate - more that he didn't like Lyle. Too deferential, needed too much guidance, aka, a rookie. As to Travis Lee - I think you blame a monstrous signing bonus and poor work habits/attitude for what Travis has become.

 

[schillingfan]

It looks like Terrero is out of options.

Remember the rule. A player who is 18 or under when signed has 4 years before he must be added to the 40 man roster. A 19 and over has 3 years. He was signed in 1999 and born in May of 1980, which means he was 19.

Thus 1999, 2000 and 2001 are his three years. In 2002 he spent the whole year in AA. If he was added to the 40 man roster as required and not left eligible for Rule 5 then in 2002 he was optioned to Tucson. He spent some time in 2003 and 2004 in the minors. Thus, he would have used up all 3 option years.

The key to figuring out options is to look at the year he is drafted or first signed and figure out the age. Then add in the 3 or 4 years. You can't go by what happened only in the majors. A lot of players spend their first option year solely in the minors.

Coyotefan let's just agree to disagree on whether John Patterson had value. If one accepts as I do that he will be a major league pitcher, then it was a stupid move. When you say he was far down the depth chart, that was the D-Backs opinion of him, not mine. That just, to my mind, illustrates their stupidity. Let's see where he is in 2 years. Clearly the D-Backs, as a team not competing for the players, have had the roster space to keep JPatt and nuture him as a young pitcher. They had no desire to, obviously. I believe they were wrong.

Just don't me their excuses and say they had no choice. They created that situation by their own player evaluations.

Trust me on this as a Phillies phan I have had years of experience at listening to stupid managementspeak and cutting through the BS rationalizations.

 

[Forrestham]

Hindsight is 20/20. Almost every decision made was wrong. Patterson had several opportunities with the Dbacks and was given a fair shot in 03. I agree with him out of options he was a better choice than Daigle or Choate. He had a few good games with the Expos last year. Better than Daigle. But this one decision was not the reason we sucked. Had we known how bad this team was, Patterson would have had an opportunity. We were so bad that we lost 111 games with Randy Johnson

 

[AZZenny]

That's true! J Patt was just one of many, many dubious decisions over the past several years. Again, SF and I hold it up as an example because it wasn't hindsight for us - it was a flat-out well-in-advance prediction. LOL.

Terrero was signed as a non-drafted FA on October 15 1997, according to the media guide. He was 17 years, 4 mos, 27 days of age. So - 98, 99, 2000 - he still had to be added to the roster in 2001 right? (You know me and math...) This stuff is so arcane! Anyhow, looks like he IS out of options, and they have him on the 40 man roster, but obviously don't intend for him to play CF this year. That says he'll get traded for a left-handed specialist!!

 

[Moose Lady]

It looks like Terrero is out of options.

Remember the rule. A player who is 18 or under when signed has 4 years before he must be added to the 40 man roster. A 19 and over has 3 years. He was signed in 1999 and born in May of 1980, which means he was 19.

Thus 1999, 2000 and 2001 are his three years. In 2002 he spent the whole year in AA. If he was added to the 40 man roster as required and not left eligible for Rule 5 then in 2002 he was optioned to Tucson. He spent some time in 2003 and 2004 in the minors. Thus, he would have used up all 3 option years.

The key to figuring out options is to look at the year he is drafted or first signed and figure out the age. Then add in the 3 or 4 years. You can't go by what happened only in the majors. A lot of players spend their first option year solely in the minors.

.

I guess I'm not getting it then. I thought an option was not used unless the player is sent up to the big club. Why would his three options be used for the first 3 years he was in the minors? I know we've wondered how many options a player has left when he just spent 3 years coming up thru the minors. I know a player can go up and down as many times as needed and he will only have used 1 option. Am I completely down the wrong path or just screwing up the way I thought it was?

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

That's true! J Patt was just one of many, many dubious decisions over the past several years. Again, SF and I hold it up as an example because it wasn't hindsight for us - it was a flat-out well-in-advance prediction. LOL.

Terrero was signed as a non-drafted FA on October 15 1997, according to the media guide. He was 17 years, 4 mos, 27 days of age. So - 98, 99, 2000 - he still had to be added to the roster in 2001 right? (You know me and math...) This stuff is so arcane! Anyhow, looks like he IS out of options, and they have him on the 40 man roster, but obviously don't intend for him to play CF this year. That says he'll get traded for a left-handed specialist!!

The front office has said they want to use Terrero as a fourth outfielder that can play any one of the three outfield positions when needed. And considering how they only have two other outfielders so far and it is really slim pickings in Free Agency now, Id say the chances of him getting traded are very small.

 

[schillingfan]

I guess I'm not getting it then. I thought an option was not used unless the player is sent up to the big club. Why would his three options be used for the first 3 years he was in the minors? I know we've wondered how many options a player has left when he just spent 3 years coming up thru the minors. I know a player can go up and down as many times as needed and he will only have used 1 option. Am I completely down the wrong path or just screwing up the way I thought it was?

Just the opposite.

An option is used every time a player is sent from the big club to a minor league club. So once you are put on the 40 man roster (the 3 and 4 year rule) if you are sent down, other than for injury, even once that year you use up an option for that year. You can be sent up and down many times, but only one option is used. The option applies to the whole year. If you spend the whole year on the big club, then no options are used. If you spend any time on the minor league club, including the whole year, an option is used.

Terrero must have played in one of the Latin american Leagues in 1998. The first sign I see of him was in 1999 in rookie ball in Missoula. I'm not sure what the rules are for foreign signees who play in foreign ball. Since he signed in October of 1997, that meant 1998 was his first year. Since he was under 19, he would have 4 years - 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001. His option years would then have been 2002, 2003, 2004. However, they have room for him on the 25 man roster as a bench outfielder, so it's not an issue.

These rule thingys are fun to look at anyway.

 

[Moose Lady]

Thanks Connie! I guess I was really screwed up on the option thing. So just to make sure I know this time, if a guy starts in single A, then moves up to AA and then goes to AAA, he's already used 2 options? So how many do they start with? I know it's something in their contract, but what is the norm?

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

Thanks Connie! I guess I was really screwed up on the option thing. So just to make sure I know this time, if a guy starts in single A, then moves up to AA and then goes to AAA, he's already used 2 options? So how many do they start with? I know it's something in their contract, but what is the norm?

No, an option is used when they are sent from the major league team to a minor league team, not when they are promoted up a level.

 

[Moose Lady]

No, an option is used when they are sent from the major league team to a minor league team, not when they are promoted up a level.

That's what I thought but Schillfan made it sound different. Terrero's first year up with the DBacks was last year, wasn't it? That would be just 1 option then. And if they bring him up this year but end up sending him back down, that would be another option. But when they brought him up last year that made him part of the 25 man roster so if they add him as part of the 25 this year, he won't have used any options. Correct? Sorry, humor an old lady.

 

[schillingfan]

That's what I thought but Schillfan made it sound different. Terrero's first year up with the DBacks was last year, wasn't it? That would be just 1 option then. And if they bring him up this year but end up sending him back down, that would be another option. But when they brought him up last year that made him part of the 25 man roster so if they add him as part of the 25 this year, he won't have used any options. Correct? Sorry, humor an old lady.

It's the difference between the 40 man roster and the 25 man roster.

Once you are put on the 40 man roster - you have three years where you can be sent down to the minors. Terrero's first year on the 25 man roster may have been in 2003, but he was first put on the 40 man roster it would appear in 2002.

So once you on are on the 40 man roster, any time you are not on the 25 man roster (other than being on the DL) you are "optioned" down to the minors. So you can spend the whole year in the minors and if you are one the 40 man roster, it counts as an option year, as it does if you spend 1 day in the minors.