The 3-4 WILB

[Stout]

This is why I am warming up to Daryl Washington despite his size. As weak as we are at ILB, I believe that we have even less depth at nickel linebacker. I can't see one player on our roster that has the athleticism to drop in the deep middle in a cover 2. I could handle a little less production from our ILB in the running game, if it allows us to improve both our NT productivity, as well as our nickel coverage.

See, your WILB shouldn't ever absolutely have to cover the deep middle. Even with Adrian Wilson cheating up to the line, Rhodes should be holding that area down.

 

[Mulli]

See, your WILB shouldn't ever absolutely have to cover the deep middle. Even with Adrian Wilson cheating up to the line, Rhodes should be holding that area down.

Especially against teams that can throw as in in the Packers or the Saints.

9ers or Rams, they could have CC in deep coverage.

 

[kerouac9]

That still doesn't preclude a guy from making the transition as far as I'm concerned. College guys have more varied requirements at every position in the NFL from what they had in College.

Why wouldn't you want to change the position in the NFL from being populated by 6'1" 235lb guys to 6'4" 250lb guys who are almost if not just as quick.

For me I want my 3-4 Wilb to be able to race, good 20 or 40 time, to the football on run plays and to be athletic enough to get out and cover RBs and TEs and slot WRs on occasion on the passing downs.

Another question I have is what is a "rush" outside linebacker? I always thought that the 3-4 was designed to confuse the offense as to where the pass rush was coming. But what I see all the time is that the ROLB in a 3-4 is supposed to be the pass rusher far more so than the LOLB.

Not exactly. The 3-4 defense was designed to help contain the outside run:

In the NFL there are many running backs who are incredibly athletic. O.J.Simpson was perhaps the first of these, but today there are perhaps a dozen of them. These guys are very shifty and hard to chase down. Defensive linemen simply can't do it. So the solution was to remove one of the DL from the defense and substitute a fourth linebacker. These linebackers have the speed to chase down such running backs. The 3-4 defense was motivated by two factors: the difficulty in getting good defensive ends, and the need to stop very fast running backs. This is the strength of the 3-4. The DTs keep the offensive linemen off your linebackers, leaving them free to roam the field and bring down runners.

The zone blitz package is designed to confuse opposing QBs with where the pass rush is coming from, but not the 3-4 defense itself. The "rush linebacker" is used to refer to that smallish DE who's going to be playing in the 2-point stance and rushing the quarterback/crashing the LOS 80% of the time or more. It's used not to confuse people on the more traditional ILBs or the hybrid SOLB, which is kind of a bigger SOLB in a 4-3 defense, and is currently manned by Clark Haggans.

As for those who are saying that the Cards should use Haggans at WILB: they really couldn't be making a bigger mistake. Yes, in some run packages, Haggans might have been used years ago on the inside in Pittsburgh. But no one should think that Haggans is not a player in real decline. He wasn't with the team for the Super Bowl run two years ago, and no one really missed him. He can cover the flat and contain the outside run, but that's about all he can do.

Does anyone remember a single play that Clark Haggans made last season? One?

 

[Duckjake]

Because college DEs have been doing one thing since they were 13 years old: rush the passer. They're pretty good at it, if they're drafted 26th overall. They can pursue the run play on the backside if they're working behind the line of scrimmage, but for the most part that's not what they want to be doing.

But college LBs have been reading running backs' torsos for three or four years, and learning how guys look when they're going into their break on a flat route or a circle route. They have football instincts honed from maybe a half-decade worth of film study figuring out where a run play is going to go from the center's drop step. They've seen so many play-actions and pump fakes that while they'll still get juked by Peyton Manning's run show, they're not going to get fooled by Bruce Gradkowski's.

I'm not saying that it's not possible for a college DE to make the transition to NFL WILB. But it takes two years for a top-shelf DE like LaMarr Woodley to transition to NFL OLB. It probably takes three or four to make the move inside.

You have the time to do that with fourth- and fifth-round picks. But first-round draft picks need to be playing a major role by week 4 if they're not a quarterback. Second round picks better be contributing by the playoff push in week 12.

OK that makes sense.

Along those same lines how do you think playing against the spread offenses, especially those in the Big XII, impacts what those LBs learn and do in college if at all?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Not exactly. The 3-4 defense was designed to help contain the outside run:



The zone blitz package is designed to confuse opposing QBs with where the pass rush is coming from, but not the 3-4 defense itself. The "rush linebacker" is used to refer to that smallish DE who's going to be playing in the 2-point stance and rushing the quarterback/crashing the LOS 80% of the time or more. It's used not to confuse people on the more traditional ILBs or the hybrid SOLB, which is kind of a bigger SOLB in a 4-3 defense, and is currently manned by Clark Haggans.

As for those who are saying that the Cards should use Haggans at WILB: they really couldn't be making a bigger mistake. Yes, in some run packages, Haggans might have been used years ago on the inside in Pittsburgh. But no one should think that Haggans is not a player in real decline. He wasn't with the team for the Super Bowl run two years ago, and no one really missed him. He can cover the flat and contain the outside run, but that's about all he can do.

Does anyone remember a single play that Clark Haggans made last season? One?[/QUOTE]

Watch the Minny game... you'll see a few.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

WILB ?

Has to be a good overall LB'er. When the best overall LB cannot be found then a LB who is "better in coverage" is always a plus.

The best example of a WILB and SILB where one plays the run and one plays the pass is the ol' 1986 Giants 3-4 where Taylor and Banks where the OLB'ers, Harry Carson (later this was Pepper Johsnon) played the SILB (thumper against run) and Gary Reasons played the WILB (coverage linebacker).

But good/great WILB'ers have come in all shapes and sizes. You always would like the "optimal, prototype" player that fits all the physicall assets you are looking for, but make sure you don't pass up on the next Sam Mills (5'9", 239lbs) while doing so.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I've heard that being an ILB on a 3-4 requires toughness from both Will and Sam because there's one less big body to occupy space.

I think a WILB can get by without the need to be "overly physical". JMHO.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

This is why I am warming up to Daryl Washington despite his size.

He is plenty big enough to play the WILB position. It is not the "optimal size" but there have been quite a few "small" WILB in 3-4 defenses that have done very well at the position.

 

[JeffGollin]

New Info & Gut Feeling

According to Charley Casserly, it turns out that the Crohn's Disease report on Rolando McClain was erroneous (His Mom has it - post-Combine medical tests on him came out "clean"). Assuming Casserly's more recent report is true, it's caused me to take a fresh look at McClain.

Here's a guy whose 4.68 forty time on his Pro Day (an improvement over earlier estimates of 4.80) and 6-3½ 250 lb size and field smarts (plus the departure of Dansby) represents a "match made in heaven" for the Cardinals.

So much so that I could see us parting with a player or mid-round pick in order to move up from #26 to the middle of the first round in order to grab him if the right opportunity presented itself.

The unique "fit" between team-need/system-fit and player-profile reminds me of a similar need/fit situation with DRC.

(Note - One nagging thing, though: the original report on the Crohn's was that McClain came clean about it at the Combine. As such, the story rang true. Casserly's latest report does a 180 on that earlier story. Why is that? Still, I'm inclined to trust Casserly).

 

[Cardiac]

Not exactly. The 3-4 defense was designed to help contain the outside run:

The zone blitz package is designed to confuse opposing QBs with where the pass rush is coming from, but not the 3-4 defense itself. The "rush linebacker" is used to refer to that smallish DE who's going to be playing in the 2-point stance and rushing the quarterback/crashing the LOS 80% of the time or more. It's used not to confuse people on the more traditional ILBs or the hybrid SOLB, which is kind of a bigger SOLB in a 4-3 defense, and is currently manned by Clark Haggans.

As for those who are saying that the Cards should use Haggans at WILB: they really couldn't be making a bigger mistake. Yes, in some run packages, Haggans might have been used years ago on the inside in Pittsburgh. But no one should think that Haggans is not a player in real decline. He wasn't with the team for the Super Bowl run two years ago, and no one really missed him. He can cover the flat and contain the outside run, but that's about all he can do.

Does anyone remember a single play that Clark Haggans made last season? One?

I read somewhere that Haggans had the most QB hurries or pressures on the team. If the Cards draft an OLB in this draft then it would support your thoughts that Haggans is in rapid decline (or BPA). If he is in decline then moving inside may help minimize his eroding skills.

Good info on the 3-4 and the main reason it was created. I would say that a great by product was the ability to include the zone blitz. Obviously a LBer dropping into coverage is more effective then a DE or DT.

 

[kerouac9]

Watch the Minny game... you'll see a few.

Clark Haggans had 2 tackles in the Minnesota game.

First quarter:
2-4-ARI 20 (12:02) 28-A.Peterson right end to ARZ 20 for no gain (53-C.Haggans).

2-10-MIN 9 (6:01) 29-C.Taylor right tackle to MIN 11 for 2 yards (58-K.Dansby, 53-C.Haggans).

Second quarter:

1-10-MIN 9 (10:07) 28-A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 13 for 4 yards (58-K.Dansby, 53-C.Haggans).

2-4-ARI 5 (3:16) 28-A.Peterson right end to ARZ 5 for no gain (53-C.Haggans).

Haggans didn't make a play for the entire second half of the Minnesota game. No pass breakups, not even an assisted tackle.

I'm not saying that Haggans is a waste of a roster spot. I think he's a nice veteran presence who knows the system and plays to his responsibilities. He's probably better than Paris Lenon. But he's not much better than Chike Okeafor was, and he certainly doesn't have the ability to play more than he currently does.

 

[CardLogic]

Because college DEs have been doing one thing since they were 13 years old: rush the passer. They're pretty good at it, if they're drafted 26th overall. They can pursue the run play on the backside if they're working behind the line of scrimmage, but for the most part that's not what they want to be doing.

But college LBs have been reading running backs' torsos for three or four years, and learning how guys look when they're going into their break on a flat route or a circle route. They have football instincts honed from maybe a half-decade worth of film study figuring out where a run play is going to go from the center's drop step. They've seen so many play-actions and pump fakes that while they'll still get juked by Peyton Manning's run show, they're not going to get fooled by Bruce Gradkowski's.

I'm not saying that it's not possible for a college DE to make the transition to NFL WILB. But it takes two years for a top-shelf DE like LaMarr Woodley to transition to NFL OLB. It probably takes three or four to make the move inside.

You have the time to do that with fourth- and fifth-round picks. But first-round draft picks need to be playing a major role by week 4 if they're not a quarterback. Second round picks better be contributing by the playoff push in week 12.

Great post! Nailed it.

 

[kerouac9]

He is plenty big enough to play the WILB position. It is not the "optimal size" but there have been quite a few "small" WILB in 3-4 defenses that have done very well at the position.

You don't have to be tall, but you do have to be thick. That's my major worry about Washington. He's real, real lean. I'm not not comfortable necessarily drafting a guy in the first round and asking him to gain 10-15 lbs and keep all his speed. That's not easy for everyone to do, especially with the thought that he's probably been asked to add weight for most of his career.

I read somewhere that Haggans had the most QB hurries or pressures on the team. If the Cards draft an OLB in this draft then it would support your thoughts that Haggans is in rapid decline (or BPA). If he is in decline then moving inside may help minimize his eroding skills.

Good info on the 3-4 and the main reason it was created. I would say that a great by product was the ability to include the zone blitz. Obviously a LBer dropping into coverage is more effective then a DE or DT.

That's true, but Haggans was also on the field more than the other OLBs.

 

[Cardiac]

You don't have to be tall, but you do have to be thick. That's my major worry about Washington. He's real, real lean. I'm not not comfortable necessarily drafting a guy in the first round and asking him to gain 10-15 lbs and keep all his speed. That's not easy for everyone to do, especially with the thought that he's probably been asked to add weight for most of his career.



That's true, but Haggans was also on the field more than the other OLBs.

In regards to Washington that's why we would need a true stud at NT to help keep blockers off of him.

Haggans may have had more playing time because he has some skills, no?

It will be interesting to see if the extra attention Porter receives from opposing D's will free Haggans up to have a bigger impact.

 

[kerouac9]

In regards to Washington that's why we would need a true stud at NT to help keep blockers off of him.

Haggans may have had more playing time because he has some skills, no?

It will be interesting to see if the extra attention Porter receives from opposing D's will free Haggans up to have a bigger impact.

By no means do I think that Clark Haggans is a stiff. I just don't think he has the skill set to play WILB effectively--even more effectively than Paris Lenon.

I DO think that Haggans could be adequate or better at SILB. He's both better in coverage and as a blitzer than Hayes was last season. We maybe would've seen more of Haggans at that position last year if we'd had anyone of value behind him at ROLB.

 

[Duckjake]

WILB ?

Has to be a good overall LB'er. When the best overall LB cannot be found then a LB who is "better in coverage" is always a plus.

The best example of a WILB and SILB where one plays the run and one plays the pass is the ol' 1986 Giants 3-4 where Taylor and Banks where the OLB'ers, Harry Carson (later this was Pepper Johsnon) played the SILB (thumper against run) and Gary Reasons played the WILB (coverage linebacker).

But good/great WILB'ers have come in all shapes and sizes. You always would like the "optimal, prototype" player that fits all the physicall assets you are looking for, but make sure you don't pass up on the next Sam Mills (5'9", 239lbs) while doing so.

Guys like Sam Mills aren't good examples for the NFL in 2010. As I've posted before the Cards offensive line in 1993 was mostly guys who weighed less than 300lbs. The heaviest guy on that line would be the smallest today.

But I do get your point that you don't want to pass up a guy simply because of size without judging the rest of his talents, that's how the Ravens got Ray Lewis, unless of course the guy's name is Buster.

 

[Chopper0080]

See, your WILB shouldn't ever absolutely have to cover the deep middle. Even with Adrian Wilson cheating up to the line, Rhodes should be holding that area down.

Inaccurate. In a cover 2 scheme, your safeties cover deep halves of the field and your corners cover the flats. It is the responsibility of the nickel linebacker to drop deep middle to cover the seam route where the cover 2 is weak. Derrick Brooks did this amazingly well.

 

[Stout]

Inaccurate. In a cover 2 scheme, your safeties cover deep halves of the field and your corners cover the flats. It is the responsibility of the nickel linebacker to drop deep middle to cover the seam route where the cover 2 is weak. Derrick Brooks did this amazingly well.

Bah, you're parsing words. You made it sound like the WILB was covering center field instead of the safety in your first post, which clearly does not happen. Of COURSE the WILB covers the middle, but calling it the deep middle implies that the WILB is back beyond the safeties, which you now admit isn't the case. Your initial post was misleading, and we actually agree on where the WILB drops to often in coverage.

 

[Chopper0080]

Bah, you're parsing words. You made it sound like the WILB was covering center field instead of the safety in your first post, which clearly does not happen. Of COURSE the WILB covers the middle, but calling it the deep middle implies that the WILB is back beyond the safeties, which you now admit isn't the case. Your initial post was misleading, and we actually agree on where the WILB drops to often in coverage.

Bah yourself. When the NFC contains the likes of Jermichael Finley, Jason Witten, Visanthe Shiancoe, Vernon Davis, Greg Olsen, Fred Davis, Kellen Winslow Jr, Chris Colley & Tony Gonzales, it is the deep middle.

 

[Stout]

Bah yourself. When the NFC contains the likes of Jermichael Finley, Jason Witten, Visanthe Shiancoe, Vernon Davis, Greg Olsen, Fred Davis, Kellen Winslow Jr, Chris Colley & Tony Gonzales, it is the deep middle.

*Sigh* You're oblivious. I just agreed with you, but go ahead and keep arguing about something I'm agreeing with you about. Be a little more clear in your initial posts and maybe there won't be misunderstandings.

 

[Chopper0080]

*Sigh* You're oblivious. I just agreed with you, but go ahead and keep arguing about something I'm agreeing with you about. Be a little more clear in your initial posts and maybe there won't be misunderstandings.

Wait...wait...wait, wait, wait wait, wait..........wait. Agree??? That is just not possible. This is the Arizona Sports Fans Network's Cardinal Message Board right?

 

[Stout]

Wait...wait...wait, wait, wait wait, wait..........wait. Agree??? That is just not possible. This is the Arizona Sports Fans Network's Cardinal Message Board right?

Lol Yeah, crazy, ain't it?

 

[kerouac9]

Inaccurate. In a cover 2 scheme, your safeties cover deep halves of the field and your corners cover the flats. It is the responsibility of the nickel linebacker to drop deep middle to cover the seam route where the cover 2 is weak. Derrick Brooks did this amazingly well.

Almost.

1) You're talking about the Tampa-2, not the Cover-2.

2) It was Hardy Nickerson and Jaime Duncan who were the deep LB in most of the Tampa-2 schemes. They were the MLB for those great defenses, and it's almost always the MLB who covers the deep third when these teams go into the "traditional" Tampa-2 alignment. You can still see it in the deep drops that Brian Urlacher takes in Chicago or Gary Brackett takes in Indy, although now that Kiffin and Dungy are out of the league, you're starting to see that change (also with the introduction of the tight ends that you mention in this very thread).

3) Derrick Brooks did most of his damage in the intermediate route where ins and slant routes are thrown, and often over the middle in the 5-12 yard range. Warren Sapp and Simeon Rice did such a great job putting pressure on passers that they were forced to dump the ball off into these intermediate routes, where Brooks was so often waiting for the ball to arrive.

 

[Cardiac]

By no means do I think that Clark Haggans is a stiff. I just don't think he has the skill set to play WILB effectively--even more effectively than Paris Lenon.

I DO think that Haggans could be adequate or better at SILB. He's both better in coverage and as a blitzer than Hayes was last season. We maybe would've seen more of Haggans at that position last year if we'd had anyone of value behind him at ROLB.

I fully agree. So if Hayes back doesn't heal properly or his sub par play continues then Haggans could slide into the SILB spot if Brown, Baggs or Davis step up. This could also allow us to draft an OLB if they are the BPA.

 

[SuperSpck]

Almost.

1) You're talking about the Tampa-2, not the Cover-2.

2) It was Hardy Nickerson and Jaime Duncan who were the deep LB in most of the Tampa-2 schemes. They were the MLB for those great defenses, and it's almost always the MLB who covers the deep third when these teams go into the "traditional" Tampa-2 alignment. You can still see it in the deep drops that Brian Urlacher takes in Chicago or Gary Brackett takes in Indy, although now that Kiffin and Dungy are out of the league, you're starting to see that change (also with the introduction of the tight ends that you mention in this very thread).

3) Derrick Brooks did most of his damage in the intermediate route where ins and slant routes are thrown, and often over the middle in the 5-12 yard range. Warren Sapp and Simeon Rice did such a great job putting pressure on passers that they were forced to dump the ball off into these intermediate routes, where Brooks was so often waiting for the ball to arrive.