The Amare Delusion

[Budden]

Like many of you, I am a Suns fan. However, unlike many of you, I'm also a big fan of rational thought. It seems that many of you see posting on this board and typing coherent arguments that make logical sense as mutually exclusive activities. For the others, let's see if we can't get a handle on this Amare Stoudemire situation.

First off, I want to start by saying that Amare Stoudemire should be the most dominant offensive front court player in the league. Three or four years ago, the guy really couldn't create anything for himself. Sure, he could finish a play by taking his man off the dribble, but only after Nash got the entire defense off balance by faking a pass to Joe Johnson, took his man off the dribble, and then swung it to Amare on the other side of the court where he could go one on one against a slower, weaker defender.

That was before he developed a spot up jump shot. So he worked hard enough to develop one of the best mid-range set shots for a big man in the entire league. At that point, he had 2 options: he could either shoot the jumper, or throw a pump fake and drive past his man. But, he still wasn't a great ball handler, so even if he could get past his defender, the secondary defense might step in to take a charge.

That was Amare just a couple years ago.

I want you the thinkers out there - or even the Amare bashers - to tell me a power forward in the league who can knock the spot up jumper down as well as Amare?

Now I want you to tell me what player, at 6'11, can drive to the basket from 18 feet, through traffic, and have the ball handling ability and body control to make a split second decision to pull up in the lane (avoiding the charge) or take it all the way for the power slam as well as Amare Stoudemire. Leandro Barbosa can't do it. Not consistently, anyway. But Amare Stoudemire can.

As I see it, the problem with Amare this season (on offense) is that nearly half of the shots he MAKES are forced, "bad" shots. He has overpower 3 guys to get a good look at the rim. It just so happens that he's THAT dominant. I'm sure people will argue that, if there are 3 guys around him, he should pass it to the 2 guys who by default must be open. The problem is that one of those guys is Raja Bell, who isn't a consistent shooter, another guy is confused because he thought the play was designed to feed Shaq in the post, and the rest of the good Suns players are eating chicken noodle soup and sipping on green tea, sitting on the bench nursing phantom injuries that might happen in the future. And, let's say he does kick the ball out to Raja Bell or Matt Barnes or Leandro Barbosa or any of the other decent shooters on this team. They might be able to shoot an open 3, but what if they miss? That would likely lead to a long rebound, the other team would get out on the break, and the Suns might be enticed into a few possessions of up-tempo basketball. Heaven forbid that ever happens!

So, in summary Amare has developed all of these skills and is systematically put into a position where he is not able to use them. Then he has Shaquille O'neal - a guy who has played with some of the best players in the history of the league on some of the best teams in the history of the league, who himself is one of the greatest players in the history of the league - in Amare's ear saying that he is the best power player in the league, and you honestly wonder why he's a little miffed?

 

[Blackification]

I agree with a lot of your points and thats exactly why I think they'll be wasting a lot of future talent if they keep on spoiling amare in phoenix and rebuilding around him in 2010 when he isn't ready for it. Its long but i'll explain, hopefully someone reads.

I think the Suns should just go ahead and start looking at some teams to trade Amar'e with. He doesn't want to play for Porter and doesn't even listen to him. Who saw todays game when he just walked away from Porter every time they went to talk to each other? He doesn't want to play for the Suns anymore and his ego is getting too large the suns aren't going to win a championship this year and if they are looking to rebuild with Amar'e come 2010 its a big mistake and it would be too late.

Amare needs to be traded to learn a little lesson while he still can. He needs to start learning how hard it is to be a leader and he isn't going to on this Phoenix suns team Shaq, Nash, and even Hill will be there to clean his mess and when its time for him to lead a team in 2010 the Suns will be wasting their time and his prime. He needs to be traded and learn for the rest of this year and next year so when 2010 comes around he will hopefully start making the right decisions. Amar'e isn't an idiot and neither are the Suns but if they want to get something out of him while they still can do it now. Even if he doesn't come back in 2010 they still can rebuild with another franchise player from 2010 they probably have a better chance at that looking at Stoudemire's body language during games.

I'm just a fan like everyone else on this suns section of the forum but its what I see best for my favorite player and favorite team even if it means they aren't together. (No I don't really take it that serious and get sentimental it just sounded cool)

But anyway maybe this is too early maybe this post should have been made at the all star break, but if we lose to Dallas tomorrow the Suns should get those scouts working overtime.

edit - let me add to this while I can, if Porter is still here come 2010 and all this happens you can bet your ass that Amare isn't coming back.

 

[joshstmarie]

I agree, Im actually hoping that we just fail miserably this year. I want steve to retire a sun but at this point its just not a reality. We are so BONED for the future we HAVE to start trading our pieces NOW, hopefully get some good young talent and then maybe in 2010 make some good signings. Our drafting NEEDS to improve also.. As long as my boys dont make their way to the lakers/celtics/pistons..

 

[atikiN]

Budden... maybe you should read the posts on the board before starting topics with "holier than thou" attitude. Not sure who you're trying to convince that Amare is very dominant on offence... maybe you'll make another post convincing people he's black, tall and has a lot of tattoos.

No the problem with Amare is his defense. Make a convincing argument that he's pulling his weight on the defense and that will be a post worth reading.

 

[DeAnna]

Nice post Budden. All your points are correct; however, they only center around his offensive ability. What frustrates us as fans is: why can't he work that hard on the other aspects of his game?

 

[BC867]

Now I want you to tell me what player, at 6'11, can drive to the basket from 18 feet, through traffic, and have the ball handling ability and body control to make a split second decision to pull up in the lane (avoiding the charge) or take it all the way for the power slam as well as Amare Stoudemire.

You're right. But when Amare came into the league, I believe he was listed as 6'9". Currently he's listed on the roster as 6'10".

Is he really 6'11"? Not that it matters. 'Just curious.

 

[Nate]

Like many of you, I am a Suns fan. However, unlike many of you, I'm also a big fan of rational thought. It seems that many of you see posting on this board and typing coherent arguments that make logical sense as mutually exclusive activities.
(...)
As I see it, the problem with Amare this season (on offense) is that nearly half of the shots he MAKES are forced, "bad" shots. He has overpower 3 guys to get a good look at the rim. It just so happens that he's THAT dominant. I'm sure people will argue that, if there are 3 guys around him, he should pass it to the 2 guys who by default must be open. The problem is that one of those guys is Raja Bell, who isn't a consistent shooter, another guy is confused because he thought the play was designed to feed Shaq in the post, and the rest of the good Suns players are eating chicken noodle soup and sipping on green tea, sitting on the bench nursing phantom injuries that might happen in the future.

Raja Bell, this season, 3pt fg%: 48,1, good for 6th best in the league

At the other guard spot, Steve Nash, one of the best pure shooters of all time.

Who`s delusional again? The Amare-"bashers" or the Amare-apologists?

By the way: Amare had 4 rebounds in against New Orleans in 41 minutes. David West had 14 in 40. Who is the superstar power forward again?

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[SirStefan32]

Raja Bell, this season, 3pt fg%: 48,1, good for 6th best in the league

At the other guard spot, Steve Nash, one of the best pure shooters of all time.

Who`s delusional again? The Amare-"bashers" or the Amare-apologists?

By the way: Amare had 4 rebounds in against New Orleans in 41 minutes. David West had 14 in 40. Who is the superstar power forward again?

You must be registered for see images

Don't forget Amare's 6 turnovers to West's 0.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Don't forget Amare's 6 turnovers to West's 0.

Don't forget that NO has a guard/offense which can penetrate at ANY time against the Suns' guards, drawing all big men to him, allowing for easy points/offensive rebounds by the NO bigs. Defense starts with the guards - if it is no good, then offensive rebounds will come in droves. Gee, it's been what, 5 years of giving up large offensive rebounding numbers? You can't always judge a game by the box score. That said, Amare still must improve his man to man D and must learn to box out better. But just comparing rebounding numbers/TOs with another PF on another team makes little sense. West is a prototypical spot-up power forward - mostly jump shots with a few back-to-the-basket moves. And he is good. But if you don't have to dribble or catch silly passes in traffic, then you won't have many TOs. If West has to dribble, he generally gives up the ball. Amare tries (and fails often enough) to make something happen - hence the TOs. But West wouldn't do any better in this current offense. Or defense - unless he decides to let the guard go by so he can box out his man.

 

[Maligzar]

So, in summary Amare has developed all of these skills and is systematically put into a position where he is not able to use them. Then he has Shaquille O'neal - a guy who has played with some of the best players in the history of the league on some of the best teams in the history of the league, who himself is one of the greatest players in the history of the league - in Amare's ear saying that he is the best power player in the league, and you honestly wonder why he's a little miffed?

All you say is fine from purely an offensive scoring position, but it doesn;t address the major gripe about Amare. Which is that he's averaging 7.7 rebounds a game.

Why are his numbers so low?

1. He refuses to box out
2. He doesn't want it enough

Amare has set our expectaions that he is to be the best pwoer forward ever. Those are his words spoken and repeated over and over again. If he doesn't want to have those expectations on him then he should shut his mouth. Otherwise, it's time for Amare to put his game where his mouth is.

Amare has no right to be miffed about anything. 5 rebounds last night and 4 the night before. That's downright pathetic.

 

[binkar]

All you say is fine from purely an offensive scoring position, but it doesn;t address the major gripe about Amare. Which is that he's averaging 7.7 rebounds a game.

Why are his numbers so low?

1. He refuses to box out
2. He doesn't want it enough

Amare has set our expectaions that he is to be the best pwoer forward ever. Those are his words spoken and repeated over and over again. If he doesn't want to have those expectations on him then he should shut his mouth. Otherwise, it's time for Amare to put his game where his mouth is.

Amare has no right to be miffed about anything. 5 rebounds last night and 4 the night before. That's downright pathetic.

Agreed. Offensively Amare is incredible and hands down the best offensive big man in the game. His shooting stroke, quickness, and how hard he goes to the rim easily put's him with the most talented offensive players of all time.

However, it seems thats all he cares about. His defense and rebounding are lazy and pathetic. The same skills that make him the amazing offensive player he is could also make him an excellent defender and rebounder. But he just doesn't care. He is a pre-madonna whose immaturity will hold him back from ever being the player he could be.

I know he is an amazing player and I don't want him to leave, but I also think he is an underachiever. He won't ever be a Lebron, Wade, or Chris Paul type player because he isn't a leader.

 

[jagu]

All you say is fine from purely an offensive scoring position, but it doesn;t address the major gripe about Amare. Which is that he's averaging 7.7 rebounds a game.

Why are his numbers so low?

1. He refuses to box out
2. He doesn't want it enough

Amare has set our expectaions that he is to be the best pwoer forward ever. Those are his words spoken and repeated over and over again. If he doesn't want to have those expectations on him then he should shut his mouth. Otherwise, it's time for Amare to put his game where his mouth is.

Amare has no right to be miffed about anything. 5 rebounds last night and 4 the night before. That's downright pathetic.

YES! I love Amare but he doesn't play at a Duncan like level. I hate Duncan and his whining and flopping but he plays hard and deserves the SUPERSTAR tag. Amare? Not really. He is a dominating player, when he wants to be but superstar he is not. I'd trade Amare next season because I don't think he'll be back in PHO and I don't think PHO should bring him back unless he decides he wants to give his all on the court and not just TALK like a superstar.

 

[jagu]

All of the other superstars see when their team struggles and takes over at least to give them a win. Wade, Kobe, Lebron, Duncan. I've not seen Amare do that. He seems to play at the same level his team plays.

 

[JGKoblenz]

You can't really expect that Amare should be on the same level than Wade, Kobe, Lebron and Duncan.

 

[Maligzar]

You can't really expect that Amare should be on the same level than Wade, Kobe, Lebron and Duncan.

Why not? He's got the same amount of natural talent as everyone on that list. Kobe and Lebron also both came out of High School. Amare tells us time and again that he wants to be the best PF ever. He compares himself, even recently, to guys like Lebron, Kobe and Howard.

So it's time for him to put up or shut up.

 

[JGKoblenz]

Why not? He's got the same amount of natural talent as everyone on that list. Kobe and Lebron also both came out of High School. Amare tells us time and again that he wants to be the best PF ever. He compares himself, even recently, to guys like Lebron, Kobe and Howard.

So it's time for him to put up or shut up.

What do you mean by "natural talent"?

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

You can't really expect that Amare should be on the same level than Wade, Kobe, Lebron and Duncan.

That's where he's been telling us he belongs for quite a while, the LEAST we can do is expect it and criticize it

 

[JGKoblenz]

That's where he's been telling us he belongs for quite a while, the LEAST we can do is expect it and criticize it

If Boris Diaw keep telling you that he is in the same class than Kobe, Lebron and Duncan, are you going to expect it?