The Ayton Plan

[Raindog]

Ayton has trouble creating his shot. He needs to work on some mid-range moves and learn to post up with his foot near the restricted area so he doesn't have to dribble.

Also Ayton needs to quit bringing the ball down low especially since his handles are not the best. The Mavericks shouldn't have been able to guard him.

I have wondered time and again what kind of coaching Ayton is receiving. Mark Bryant has been the designated "big man" coach here for years and yet we haven't seen a lot of improvement some aspects of Ayton's technique or offensive skill set.

I am not saying it's definitively Bryant's fault. For all I know, he might be trying to teach Ayton the right stuff and Ayton is completely resistant to it. But it does make me wonder if it's one or the other of them at fault, or a combination of both inept player and coach.

 

[Mainstreet]

I have wondered time and again what kind of coaching Ayton is receiving. Mark Bryant has been the designated "big man" coach here for years and yet we haven't seen a lot of improvement some aspects of Ayton's technique or offensive skill set.

I am not saying it's definitively Bryant's fault. For all I know, he might be trying to teach Ayton the right stuff and Ayton is completely resistant to it. But it does make me wonder if it's one or the other of them at fault, or a combination of both inept player and coach.

I don't know if a change in coaching is warranted but adding another big man coach is a relatively cheap solution.

It's definitely worth a try.

 

[Hoop Head]

I have wondered time and again what kind of coaching Ayton is receiving. Mark Bryant has been the designated "big man" coach here for years and yet we haven't seen a lot of improvement some aspects of Ayton's technique or offensive skill set.

I am not saying it's definitively Bryant's fault. For all I know, he might be trying to teach Ayton the right stuff and Ayton is completely resistant to it. But it does make me wonder if it's one or the other of them at fault, or a combination of both inept player and coach.

Considering how up and down he is in games I can only imagine what he's like in practice. I mean if he has trouble focusing when it matters most then chances are he has focus issues in practice also. That would explain his lack of development and the pace at which he has developed.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think this has been posted before but it bears repeating. Ayton needs far too much help creating his own shot.



By Evan Sidery May 30 2022 6:34PM MST Basketball News:


A fatal flaw that prevents Ayton from being mentioned in the top tier of big men is his lack of self-creation ability, which he's failed to develop throughout his first four seasons with the Suns. According to Cleaning The Glass, 74.8% of Ayton's shots have been assisted on in his career. Compared to his max-salary counterparts, Ayton is nowhere close on self-creation capabilities. And at this point, I have serious doubts that this will ever become a consistent part of his game during his upcoming prime years.


Percentage of FGs Assisted in 2021-22

Deandre Ayton: 81%

Rudy Gobert: 72%

Nikola Jokic: 62%

Karl-Anthony Towns: 62%

Bam Adebayo: 61%

Joel Embiid: 54%

Giannis Antetokounmpo: 43%

Should Suns give Deandre Ayton a max deal? Positional value says no

With centers becoming the NBA's version of running backs, is Deandre Ayton worthy of a max deal? Evan Sidery explores.

www.basketballnews.com

I read the article and I just don't buy the conclusion. Why is it such a bad thing that DA gets assisted on a high percentage of his shots? We all celebrate when the team finishes with a high assist number but we don't want the center to benefit from those set-ups? Better to have an efficient scorer than one who wastes the shot clock trying to get a look only to have to pass it back out so a perimeter player can beat the clock.

Ayton proved over a very short period that he could create his own shot when Paul was out. He can do it, the only concerns I have with his offense has to do with his occasional stone hands, the fact he doesn't score enough off of offensive rebounds and doesn't draw enough fouls. How often he's assisted doesn't even register for me.

 

[Mainstreet]

I read the article and I just don't buy the conclusion. Why is it such a bad thing that DA gets assisted on a high percentage of his shots? We all celebrate when the team finishes with a high assist number but we don't want the center to benefit from those set-ups? Better to have an efficient scorer than one who wastes the shot clock trying to get a look only to have to pass it back out so a perimeter player can beat the clock.

Ayton proved over a very short period that he could create his own shot when Paul was out. He can do it, the only concerns I have has to do with his offense has to do with his occasional stone hands, the fact he doesn't score enough off of offensive rebounds and doesn't draw enough fouls. How often he's assisted doesn't even register for me.

The Mavericks forced Ayton under the basket or made him set up outside the restricted area where he often ended up being called for a charge. He has to have some ability to create his own shot because sometimes the Suns can't feed him. Smaller defenders shouldn't be able to guard him so easily.

Maybe some of this is because of the Suns offensive scheme but I don't see Ayton constantly moving, fighting for position and reposting for an entry pass when denied.

 

[Covert Rain]

I read the article and I just don't buy the conclusion. Why is it such a bad thing that DA gets assisted on a high percentage of his shots? We all celebrate when the team finishes with a high assist number but we don't want the center to benefit from those set-ups? Better to have an efficient scorer than one who wastes the shot clock trying to get a look only to have to pass it back out so a perimeter player can beat the clock.

Ayton proved over a very short period that he could create his own shot when Paul was out. He can do it, the only concerns I have has to do with his offense has to do with his occasional stone hands, the fact he doesn't score enough off of offensive rebounds and doesn't draw enough fouls. How often he's assisted doesn't even register for me.

Because over the course of your career your are not always going to be around guys who can feed you the ball. One of Ayton's strengths is efficiency but that is also because he isn't creating his own shot. If Ayton ever figured out how to drive and pull up or go around at will? He could live up to the #1 pick. It's MUCH better to have a player who can create his own shot than someone who can be shut down by shutting down another player. We have seen it first hand. Booker/CP3 shut down? So is Ayton. That's not good.

If you are an opposing defense it's a twofer automatically if you shut down the guy who primarily feeds him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The Mavericks forced Ayton under the basket or made him set up outside the restricted area where he often ended up being called for a charge. He has to have some ability to create his own shot because sometimes the Suns can't feed him. Smaller defenders shouldn't be able to guard him so easily.

Maybe some of this is because of the Suns offensive scheme but I don't see Ayton constantly moving, fighting for position and reposting for an entry pass when denied.

Offensive oriented big men need touches, they tend to stop working if they aren't seeing the ball.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Because over the course of your career your are not always going to be around guys who can feed you the ball. One of Ayton's strengths is efficiency but that is also because he isn't creating his own shot. If Ayton ever figured out how to drive and pull up or go around at will? He could live up to the #1 pick. It's MUCH better to have a player who can create his own shot than someone who can be shut down by shutting down another player. We have seen it first hand. Booker/CP3 shut down? So is Ayton. That's not good.

If you are an opposing defense it's a twofer automatically if you shut down the guy who primarily feeds him.

He had no problem getting his own shot when CP was out for awhile. And it's not like he was posting up, he was nailing those 12 footers consistently.

 

[Mainstreet]

Offensive oriented big men need touches, they tend to stop working if they aren't seeing the ball.

I never see Bam Adebayo standing around waiting to be fed. He is constantly in motion.

Maybe if the Suns had more shot creators on the team it wouldn't matter as much but if the Suns can't feed him the ball on offense he often becomes ineffective.

 

[Covert Rain]

He had no problem getting his own shot when CP was out for awhile. And it's not like he was posting up, he was nailing those 12 footers consistently.

Nobody was keying on him either. If he was a primary scorer teams are going to key on him. He needs to be more than a jump shooting center.

 

[Finito]

The Mavericks forced Ayton under the basket or made him set up outside the restricted area where he often ended up being called for a charge. He has to have some ability to create his own shot because sometimes the Suns can't feed him. Smaller defenders shouldn't be able to guard him so easily.

Maybe some of this is because of the Suns offensive scheme but I don't see Ayton constantly moving, fighting for position and reposting for an entry pass when denied.

Basketball isn’t played like that anymore it’s been proven the iso post up is a thing of the past. Even Embiid doesn’t really play like that. None of the top centers play like that not Gobert or Bam and Certainly not KAT.

The whole assist thing is misleading. We run pick and roll mid range heavy. That means Ayton is rolling to the rim or he’s popping out. You can’t run pick and roll with Gobert or Bam because they can’t shoot. I think KAT would be great used like that but he’s a mainly perimeter big. You can say whatever about Ayton but everyone agrees he’s pretty much money 12 feet and in his hook shots and jumper are really smooth. The assist are so high because he makes his shots.

I’ve said before Ayton had 5 good games in that Mavs series. Our offense was gutted with our point guards being turn over machines and unplayable and Monty kept trying to run the same damn stuff despite it not working.

 

[Finito]

I never see Bam Adebayo standing around waiting to be fed. He is constantly in motion.

Maybe if the Suns had more shot creators on the team it wouldn't matter as much but if the Suns can't feed him the ball on offense he often becomes ineffective.

And you never see a pick and roll with Bam or Bam taking 15 footers he’s not an offensive option. He gets his points by rim running and put backs mostly. People forget how big Ayton is Bam is a much smaller and quicker player

 

[Mainstreet]

Basketball isn’t played like that anymore it’s been proven the iso post up is a thing of the past. Even Embiid doesn’t really play like that. None of the top centers play like that not Gobert or Bam and Certainly not KAT.

The whole assist thing is misleading. We run pick and roll mid range heavy. That means Ayton is rolling to the rim or he’s popping out. You can’t run pick and roll with Gobert or Bam because they can’t shoot. I think KAT would be great used like that but he’s a mainly perimeter big. You can say whatever about Ayton but everyone agrees he’s pretty much money 12 feet and in his hook shots and jumper are really smooth. The assist are so high because he makes his shots.

I’ve said before Ayton had 5 good games in that Mavs series. Our offense was gutted with our point guards being turn over machines and unplayable and Monty kept trying to run the same damn stuff despite it not working.

If Ayton isn't hitting those 12 footers or they are taken away by the defense, he can be rendered ineffective. As Covert and you point out, he needs a point guard to create shots for him.

Adding another shot creator might help the problem.

I am not one of those who want to trade Ayton but he needs to figure out ways to get to the rim and not be taken out by the three point guards and role players the Mavericks presented.

 

[Mainstreet]

And you never see a pick and roll with Bam or Bam taking 15 footers he’s not an offensive option. He gets his points by rim running and put backs mostly. People forget how big Ayton is Bam is a much smaller and quicker player

I think Ayton could learn some lessons from rim running and put backs.

 

[Big Al]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

It’s ridiculous that a guy that efficient only gets 12 shots a game. How many times have we seen Ayton just come out on fire and then they just stop going to him.

Sign him and you start the season making him a legit offensive option get him involved don’t let his focus wonder. Showcase him and then you pull the trigger at the deadline if you still want to trade him

But Monty won’t do that

Suns need to make Ayton a consistent #2 or 3 option on offense after Booker & get another shot creator ( not Shamet)simply because they have one starter Booker that you know you are getting 20+points night in & night out. No one else is as consistent. Paul will score when needed but he rather set up others & pass, Mikal shows flashes of high scoring but not completely consistently scoring 15-20 and maybe he can't because he is guarding the toughest offensive opponent always, Crowder will shoot you in a game and equally he will shoot you out of a game more often in the playoffs as he was garbage in this past playoffs & I know he does other things. And I know it's been said that Ayton can't get his shot heck nobody can create their own shot if their teammates aren't going to look to pass to you so you can get some decent looks at the basket. I think they surprise him sometimes when he missed somes
passes to him because he just not used to them passing to him. He told Monty that he can't pass to himself in the Dallas series. And just the high % number themselves should tell Monty that hey Ayton deserves more touches due to his high efficiency. A 63-70% shooter needs touches.You go to the hot hand always. I loss a lot of respect for Monty's coaching this playoffs of 2022. The lack of time outs called, the lack of challenges to calls, the lack of adjustments, and not playing of Bimack and Aaron enough, and the playing time given to Shamet, Craig, and Cam Payne. A deer facing the headlights is what Monty was in this playoffs. DId they let up, get big headed, lose their confidence & edge resulting in the wheels falling off? I hope Monty is better than this in the future.

 

[Big Al]

Offensive oriented big men need touches, they tend to stop working if they aren't seeing the ball.

Ayton doesn't demand the ball as much as he should & move & to get free & get angles on the defense. But he does set a lot of high picks and just got to be more actively moving. And the Suns don't look to him on offense. They forget her's there and he has to actively demand the ball. Ayton needs maturity. Step up young man and earn that max to get it. At the end of the day, they say the progress of the program is measured by the progress of the players. And the Suns & Ayton gotta work for that progress.

 

[Phrazbit]

Wow. It would be very hard not to jump at this. Although you are also admitting your run for a title is over. This isn't going to make you a contender next year IMO.

I don't think so. I think adding those guys and retaining a couple cheap rotation quality front court guys, like McGee, Kamansky and/or Biz... I think that team would, once again, be in the running for a very high seed in the west. They would also have the ammo, through draft picks and players, to swing for a major star if one became available.

Something went wrong in that locker room during the Mavs series, I've been an Ayton backer but... him not capitalizing on the trash the Mavs were throwing at him on defense was inexcusable, our guards are getting double teamed, every freaking play, and Ayton isn't sealing out guys, he isn't making himself available deep... basically all he did was set weak screens. If we could get a return that huge for him, that keeps us in contention now and makes us a stronger contender in the future, that would be impossible to pass up on.

Ayton, at the peak we've seen him play, is a better player than anything we can get in return, we just don't see that guy enough.

 

[elindholm]

It’s ridiculous that a guy that efficient only gets 12 shots a game. How many times have we seen Ayton just come out on fire and then they just stop going to him.

But you saw the statistic about how he's tops in the league for requiring an assist, right? So it's not a matter of just "going to him." You need to create a play where he can score immediately after he gets the ball, which means that the defense can focus on preventing him from getting the ball in a scoring position, rather than preventing him from getting the ball at all. As we've seen consistently, if Ayton gets the ball in a position that requires him to make a decision, he panicks and either gives it back immediately or turns it over.

 

[Finito]

I think Ayton could learn some lessons from rim running and put backs.

Ayton is much larger than Bam. Bam is small and quick but his huge wing span makes up for it. We’re talking about two very different body types.

The pushback I get when I bring up how Bridges is our most inconsistent player is he’s just so tired having to defend the other teams best player. One day he could look like a prime Kawhi the next he’s gonna stand in the corner and take 4 shots being a complete non factor.

But we routinely ask our 7 footer to switch and track guards all over the court on defense and use him running all over the court to set screens on offense.

Now you want him to be a rim runner at his size. Does that sound realistic

 

[Finito]

But you saw the statistic about how he's tops in the league for requiring an assist, right? So it's not a matter of just "going to him." You need to create a play where he can score immediately after he gets the ball, which means that the defense can focus on preventing him from getting the ball in a scoring position, rather than preventing him from getting the ball at all. As we've seen consistently, if Ayton gets the ball in a position that requires him to make a decision, he panicks and either gives it back immediately or turns it over.

This again can be disproven with just stats.

Turnovers
Ayton 1.6
Bam 2.6
Embiid 3.1
Gobert 1.8
KAT 3.1

He doesn’t turn it over anymore or any less. Guys keep looking for these perfect players that don’t exist it goes back to an unrealistic standard. Turns the ball over 1.6 times and a game and he’s a bumbling turnover machine but in reality it’s pretty damn good for someone with his usage rate

 

[Sunburn]

This again can be disproven with just stats.

Turnovers
Ayton 1.6
Bam 2.6
Embiid 3.1
Gobert 1.8
KAT 3.1

He doesn’t turn it over anymore or any less. Guys keep looking for these perfect players that don’t exist it goes back to an unrealistic standard. Turns the ball over 1.6 times and a game and he’s a bumbling turnover machine but in reality it’s pretty damn good for someone with his usage rate

Could it be that he turns the ball over less because more of his shots are assisted than those guys?

 

[Mainstreet]

Ayton is much larger than Bam. Bam is small and quick but his huge wing span makes up for it. We’re talking about two very different body types.

The pushback I get when I bring up how Bridges is our most inconsistent player is he’s just so tired having to defend the other teams best player. One day he could look like a prime Kawhi the next he’s gonna stand in the corner and take 4 shots being a complete non factor.

But we routinely ask our 7 footer to switch and track guards all over the court on defense and use him running all over the court to set screens on offense.

Now you want him to be a rim runner at his size. Does that sound realistic

I want Ayton to move more on offense. The really good players do this and work to present a target.

We agree that the Suns may asking Ayton to guard too much on the outside especially on much quicker players like guards. It often leaves him out of position to defend and rebound.

Maybe it's time for Bridges to get some rest now and then. He doesn't have to play every game. There is nothing more to prove.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Could it be that he turns the ball over less because more of his shots are assisted than those guys?

It isn't that simple but yeah, that's part of it. His shots are assisted because he doesn't force anything, he takes "his" shot and nothing more. He rarely puts it on the floor and drives so he's not picking up the occasional charge and he isn't using up the shot clock to no advantage as so many bigs do.

I really hate to defend his offense because there are real problems there, I just don't see being assisted at a high rate as one of them.

Earlier in his career we tried to run the offense through him more often and his propensity to fumble the pass leading to an occasional turnover or more often, forcing a reset of the offense after wasting precious seconds was a real problem.

Plus, one of the advantages of running your offense through a talented big man down low (at the expense of the highly favored 3 point shot) is the expectation that the defense will suffer from extra fouls and forced double teams. We get very little of that from DA. But I don't believe we've ever really worked on this.

We accept we're a guard based offense and after giving him a few passes at the start of the game, we forget all about him. It's not because all of a sudden every single team figured out 4 minutes into the game how to guard him either, it's a decision on Monty or CP's part.

And maybe this is the best way to play given the strength of our guards but it's contributing to the likelihood that we will part ways with one of the most gifted players we've ever had. I expect that if we lose him, his next team will force him to become the power inside that he is capable of becoming and we'll go back to complaining about our inability to get a quality big man.

CP won't be here forever, if his presence is contributing to our DA issues that's just one more reason to be patient with Ayton and give him his money. CP won't be here much longer, DA has a chance to be a fixture for us.

 

[GatorAZ]

This again can be disproven with just stats.

Turnovers
Ayton 1.6
Bam 2.6
Embiid 3.1
Gobert 1.8
KAT 3.1

He doesn’t turn it over anymore or any less. Guys keep looking for these perfect players that don’t exist it goes back to an unrealistic standard. Turns the ball over 1.6 times and a game and he’s a bumbling turnover machine but in reality it’s pretty damn good for someone with his usage rate

With the exception of Gobert those guys have averaged around 5 assists per game and have more responsibility. DA doesn’t see the floor or handle the ball. It’s turn and shoot or finish lobs... He’s straight out of 2003 as predictable big man go.

 

[Covert Rain]

Could it be that he turns the ball over less because more of his shots are assisted than those guys?

That is exactly why. If you are not dribbling, creating your own shot, there is less opportunity for turnovers. So that by itself is a weak stat. If you look at that stat and assisted stat it starts to make more sense. Look at that list of most assisted guys in the earlier post. There is no question that Embiid and Giannis are better players than Ayton. They are assisted much less than Ayton. That's Ayton's next step if he wants to get better.

Ayton: 81%
Gobert: 72%
Jokic: 62%
Towns: 62%
Adebayo: 61%
Embiid: 54%
Antetokounmpo: 43%