The Ayton Plan

[Finito]

I want Ayton to move more on offense. The really good players do this and work to present a target.

We agree that the Suns may asking Ayton to guard too much on the outside especially on much quicker players like guards. It often leaves him out of position to defend and rebound.

Maybe it's time for Bridges to get some rest now and then. He doesn't have to play every game. There is nothing more to prove.

That’s not the offense we play.

First thing Ayton or any of our centers do is run up to the three point line to set a screen for the ball handler.

Then it’s up the ball handler to penetrate.

This is where I have a problem with Monty. It’s a lack of diversity and way to Paul dependent. This year you have to make Booker and Ayton your playmakers 1 & 2 Paul isn’t that guy anymore

 

[Mainstreet]

This again can be disproven with just stats.

Turnovers
Ayton 1.6
Bam 2.6
Embiid 3.1
Gobert 1.8
KAT 3.1

He doesn’t turn it over anymore or any less. Guys keep looking for these perfect players that don’t exist it goes back to an unrealistic standard. Turns the ball over 1.6 times and a game and he’s a bumbling turnover machine but in reality it’s pretty damn good for someone with his usage rate

With the exception of Ayton and Gobert, these players are trying to create shots. Turnovers are often credited to the passer.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I still haven't seen any deal that is more attractive than retaining our 23 year old big man and trying to make it work. Every proposal is 2 dimes for a quarter, or someone who is always injured.

There is no chance we'll get equal value for Ayton at this point, so either match or sign, and then deal with it later if necessary.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I'm flabbergasted that anyone wouldn't jump all over this one.

Bridges is a legit #2 scoring option, is a very good defender and he has gotten significantly better each season. The guy is a borderline All-Star.

PJ Washington is nothing to sneeze at either. A solid rotation stretch 4.

Plus 3 first round picks... picks that I am guessing would all be late to mid lotto.

That is a haul. I'd be floored if that is a real option. It's waaaaaaaaay better than any of the other imagined deals that have been kicked around. Barring a superstar getting really disgruntled in the next month, I don't see how we'd get anything better.

Nurkic is a solid player but is hurt a lot and not a good defender, Poeltl, in my mind, is just "a guy", not an impact player at all.

You want to pay Bridges max money over Ayton?

 

[Mainstreet]

That’s not the offense we play.

First thing Ayton or any of our centers do is run up to the three point line to set a screen for the ball handler.

Then it’s up the ball handler to penetrate.

This is where I have a problem with Monty. It’s a lack of diversity and way to Paul dependent. This year you have to make Booker and Ayton your playmakers 1 & 2 Paul isn’t that guy anymore

We agree the offense needs to be tweaked. It's too dependent on Paul, Booker and Payne to create shots especially when two of them are not getting the job done.

The Suns need to add more play makers and shooters to create spacing and get more dribble penetration. If the Suns had more of this, there would less conversation about what Ayton needs to improve.

The Suns could use another player that pressures the defense like Jalen Brunson.

 

[95pro]

Max/sign Ayton.

If things continue to get worse between Ayton/cp3 and/or Ayton/Monty get rid of cp3 and/or monty.

I'd rather trade CP3 for pennies on the dollar than Ayton.
Monty isn't the coach to get us to the ship and/or the offensive/defensive coaches need to go.

I'd rather have Ayton in his prime, if he doesn't live up to his potential, then we can move on from him during this prime era of Book, Bridges, Ayton and Cam Johnson. Also our cap situation sucks.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Max/sign Ayton.

If things continue to get worse between Ayton/cp3 and/or Ayton/Monty get rid of cp3 and/or monty.

I'd rather trade CP3 for pennies on the dollar than Ayton.
Monty isn't the coach to get us to the ship and/or the offensive/defensive coaches need to go.

I'd rather have Ayton in his prime, if he doesn't live up to his potential, then we can move on from him during this prime era of Book, Bridges, Ayton and Cam Johnson. Also our cap situation sucks.

Agreed exept I'm not quite sure I agree on Monty - but I think most of us have some concerns about him.

 

[Mainstreet]

Max/sign Ayton.

If things continue to get worse between Ayton/cp3 and/or Ayton/Monty get rid of cp3 and/or monty.

I'd rather trade CP3 for pennies on the dollar than Ayton.
Monty isn't the coach to get us to the ship and/or the offensive/defensive coaches need to go.

I'd rather have Ayton in his prime, if he doesn't live up to his potential, then we can move on from him during this prime era of Book, Bridges, Ayton and Cam Johnson. Also our cap situation sucks.

I too would like to sign Ayton for as many years as possible especially with a new television contract looming on the horizon.

The only caveat, we don't know what is going on behind the scene but it would have to be pretty bad not to keep him.

 

[Finito]

It isn't that simple but yeah, that's part of it. His shots are assisted because he doesn't force anything, he takes "his" shot and nothing more. He rarely puts it on the floor and drives so he's not picking up the occasional charge and he isn't using up the shot clock to no advantage as so many bigs do.

I really hate to defend his offense because there are real problems there, I just don't see being assisted at a high rate as one of them.

Earlier in his career we tried to run the offense through him more often and his propensity to fumble the pass leading to an occasional turnover or more often, forcing a reset of the offense after wasting precious seconds was a real problem.

Plus, one of the advantages of running your offense through a talented big man down low (at the expense of the highly favored 3 point shot) is the expectation that the defense will suffer from extra fouls and forced double teams. We get very little of that from DA. But I don't believe we've ever really worked on this.

We accept we're a guard based offense and after giving him a few passes at the start of the game, we forget all about him. It's not because all of a sudden every single team figured out 4 minutes into the game how to guard him either, it's a decision on Monty or CP's part.

And maybe this is the best way to play given the strength of our guards but it's contributing to the likelihood that we will part ways with one of the most gifted players we've ever had. I expect that if we lose him, his next team will force him to become the power inside that he is capable of becoming and we'll go back to complaining about our inability to get a quality big man.

CP won't be here forever, if his presence is contributing to our DA issues that's just one more reason to be patient with Ayton and give him his money. CP won't be here much longer, DA has a chance to be a fixture for us.

Yeah the assist thing is being used to knock him but the Suns finished top 5 in assist all of our players got a lot of baskets off assist it’s how we play

Getting to your spot and pulling the trigger quick is also a skill. Klay is the best ever at this. He once scored 60 points on 11 dribbles. Finds his spot, ball comes and it’s going up. Ayton finds his spot and when he gets the ball it’s going up and it goes in at a really high rate.

His offense isn’t perfect at all but good lord it’s night and day from his rookie year.

Putting the ball on the floor is the next step. I’d like to see Ayton catch the ball at the free throw line and face up. He can make that jumper all day, see if he can go around if they get up on him and either drive or kick out.

 

[Finito]

I want Ayton to move more on offense. The really good players do this and work to present a target.

We agree that the Suns may asking Ayton to guard too much on the outside especially on much quicker players like guards. It often leaves him out of position to defend and rebound.

Maybe it's time for Bridges to get some rest now and then. He doesn't have to play every game. There is nothing more to prove.

100% agree on Bridges they can’t keep running him into the floor. That iron man streak is stupid.

He also needs to be way more aggressive on offense. I think all these take a back seat to Paul

 

[Chaplin]

If Ayton's biggest concern is being the #1 on a team, then we probably need to ship him out, but I think it's pretty safe to say if he stayed he would certainly be the #2 next year, seeing how CP3 has hit some sore of bizarre wall the day after he turned 37.

The key here isn't that he's the most assisted big man in the NBA. I think that is a MASSIVE luxury because it shows how many great playmakers we have. The absolute key is how he plays when he's NOT assisted. He is horribly inefficient when he doesn't have someone setting him up. Is that a product of the system? Perhaps partly, but the fact of the matter is he can't take guys off the dribble and he still has problems with the ball down low. The thing here is that all those things are fixable, and he is either unwilling to learn OR he's just not coached as well. I like Mark Bryant, but I've always said I don't think he's anything special as a big man coach.

Did he quit on the team? Maybe he did. But honestly, who DIDN'T quit on the team in that game 7? Ayton just happens to be the one everybody heard about.

 

[Finito]

We agree the offense needs to be tweaked. It's too dependent on Paul, Booker and Payne to create shots especially when two of them are not getting the job done.

The Suns need to add more play makers and shooters to create spacing and get more dribble penetration. If the Suns had more of this, there would less conversation about what Ayton needs to improve.

The Suns could use another player that pressures the defense like Jalen Brunson.

I would love Lou Dort on this team.

 

[Mainstreet]

It could be as simple as the Suns offensive and defensive system is not a good fit for Ayton.

If this is the case, max him and trade him later. The alternative would be changing coaches.

I miss Willie Green.

 

[Finito]

It could be as simple as the Suns offensive and defensive system is not a good fit for Ayton.

If this is the case, max him and trade him later. The alternative would be changing coaches.

I miss Willie Green.

Talent always trumps system in the NBA. If someone says this talented player doesn’t fit our system then you suck as a coach. You mold the system to fit talent

Again a Monty and lack of creativity problem.

 

[GatorAZ]

I still haven't seen any deal that is more attractive than retaining our 23 year old big man and trying to make it work. Every proposal is 2 dimes for a quarter, or someone who is always injured.

There is no chance we'll get equal value for Ayton at this point, so either match or sign, and then deal with it later if necessary.

There’s no deal that’s making us better or equal at Ayton’s position but we can improve the team in other areas with the pieces we’d get back. Since we’re not replacing DA I like the idea of going small. I’m assuming Jones doesn’t value non-elite centers in 2022+.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

There’s no deal that’s making us better or equal at Ayton’s position but we can improve the team in other areas with the pieces we’d get back. Since we’re not replacing DA I like the idea of going small. I’m assuming Jones doesn’t value non-elite centers in 2022+.

Non-elite? Again, which centers outside of Jokic/Embiid are better than DA?

I don't see any combo of players (esp those suggested) that will give us a better chance in our limited championship window than DA.

 

[95pro]

Agreed exept I'm not quite sure I agree on Monty - but I think most of us have some concerns about him.

Although it happened so quick, judging from last years finals run and this years 2nd round exit, he's not the guy. He's had two prime opportunities to get us there. I think he gets one more chance before he's bounced. This year was even more obvious that he had the deer-in-headlights look.

 

[Mainstreet]

There’s no deal that’s making us better or equal at Ayton’s position but we can improve the team in other areas with the pieces we’d get back. Since we’re not replacing DA I like the idea of going small. I’m assuming Jones doesn’t value non-elite centers in 2022+.

Looking at the playoffs, top wings and role playing centers seems to be the way to go unless Ayton can become elite.

 

[GatorAZ]

Non-elite? Again, which centers outside of Jokic/Embiid are better than DA?

I don't see any combo of players (esp those suggested) that will give us a better chance in our limited championship window than DA.

I thought Bam was undoubtedly more impactful than Ayton but he was awful vs Boston. Towns is far more skilled but is lacking defense. If you consider Siakam at C then I’d take him over all those guys. Then there’s AD/Gobert that are impact monsters when right.

So to answer your question it depends on which week you’re watching them…

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I thought Bam was undoubtedly more impactful than Ayton but he was awful vs Boston.

Ayton is better and has more potential.

Towns is far more skilled but is lacking defense.

That ain't all he's lacking.

If you consider Siakam at C

I don't!

Then there’s AD/Gobert that are impact monsters when right.

Again, I wouldn't trade Ayton for either of them, based on age/injury history/performance.

So to answer your question it depends on which week you’re watching them…

For you, perhaps. I would bank on Ayton's next 5 years over any of the names you mentioned. (Siakam is intriguing but not like any of the others)

 

[Covert Rain]

If Ayton's biggest concern is being the #1 on a team, then we probably need to ship him out, but I think it's pretty safe to say if he stayed he would certainly be the #2 next year, seeing how CP3 has hit some sore of bizarre wall the day after he turned 37.

The key here isn't that he's the most assisted big man in the NBA. I think that is a MASSIVE luxury because it shows how many great playmakers we have. The absolute key is how he plays when he's NOT assisted. He is horribly inefficient when he doesn't have someone setting him up. Is that a product of the system? Perhaps partly, but the fact of the matter is he can't take guys off the dribble and he still has problems with the ball down low. The thing here is that all those things are fixable, and he is either unwilling to learn OR he's just not coached as well. I like Mark Bryant, but I've always said I don't think he's anything special as a big man coach.

Did he quit on the team? Maybe he did. But honestly, who DIDN'T quit on the team in that game 7? Ayton just happens to be the one everybody heard about.

The system needs an overhaul then. Today it all starts with CP3 and him deciding if he is going to score of facilitate. Then it goes through Booker when we need points. If that dynamic is going to change we better hope CP3 is OK with that dynamic or we need to ship him out. I honestly, don't see CP3 taking a backseat to both Booker and Ayton.

 

[GatorAZ]

Ayton is better and has more potential.

That ain't all he's lacking.

I don't!

Again, I wouldn't trade Ayton for either of them, based on age/injury history/performance.

For you, perhaps. I would bank on Ayton's next 5 years over any of the names you mentioned. (Siakam is intriguing but not like any of the others)

Siakam is a center for Toronto. Bam is better than Ayton and was the 2nd best player on a final team. He’s far more versatile.

The Towns stuff this forum has been over ad nauseam. He can look completely uninspiring or look like the best big in the league on any given night.

 

[Mainstreet]

A few other things since we are critiquing Ayton.

He doesn't appear as strong as other centers. He gets moved around by smaller players.

Also he doesn't like to bang inside and his handles are weak. And why doesn't he dunk more when shots are contested near the basket.

 

[Covert Rain]

A few other things since we are critiquing Ayton.

He doesn't appear as strong as other centers. He gets moved around by smaller players.

Also he doesn't like to bang inside and his handles are weak. And why doesn't he dunk more when shots are contested near the basket.

I think part of that is mentality. He plays small sometimes. For example, there were several times during the Pelican series or when someone smaller was on him (i.e. Luka), he instead of backing them down and acting his size he passed the ball out. It was infuriating. Luka was a horrible defender during that series and Ayton didn't challenge him multiple times.

 

[GatorAZ]

A few other things since we are critiquing Ayton.

He doesn't appear as strong as other centers. He gets moved around by smaller players.

Also he doesn't like to bang inside and his handles are weak. And why doesn't he dunk more when shots are contested near the basket.

He’s LaMarcus Aldridge in David Robinson’s body.

He could get stronger but it might affect his agility. As great as Embiid/Jokic are they’re so big it just looks like they’re lumbering down the court and exhausted by the finish.