The Ayton Plan

[Covert Rain]

The hyperbolic stuff coming from his undying supporters is even more incredible. He’s a good young center… but you guys are literally making comparisons of him to HOFers with a straight face.

That’s bizarre.

And that’s from someone who thinks he should absolutely re-signed.

Ayton is not a Top 5 center yet. Which makes the hyperbolic stuff even more incredible.

Regular Season (Centers) - At least 28 minutes per game, played at least 52 Games
Ayton:
Defensive Rating = #7
Allowing 2nd Chance Points = #17
Allowing Points in the Paint = #5
Blocks = #15
Def Rebounds = #10

Players Defense | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring defense information for each player in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

Playoffs 2022 (out of 10 Centers)
Ayton
Defensive Rating = #7 of 10
Defensive Rebounding = #8 of 10
Blocks #7 of 10
Allowing 2nd Chance Points = #6 of 10
Allowing Points in the Paint = #2 of 10

Players Defense | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring defense information for each player in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

 

[Cheesebeef]

Regular Season (Centers) - At least 28 minutes per game, played at least 52 Games
Ayton:
Defensive Rating = #7
Allowing 2nd Chance Points = #17
Allowing Points in the Paint = #5
Blocks = #15
Def Rebounds = #10

Players Defense | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring defense information for each player in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

Playoffs 2022 (out of 10 Centers)
Ayton
Defensive Rating = #7 of 10
Defensive Rebounding = #8 of 10
Blocks #7 of 10
Allowing 2nd Chance Points = #6 of 10
Allowing Points in the Paint = #2 of 10

Players Defense | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring defense information for each player in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

In a league with a dearth of good centers, all of the above makes my case for me. Good, but not even close to elite defender.

 

[Covert Rain]

In a league with a dearth of good centers, all of the above makes my case for me. Good, but not even close to elite defender.

Agreed. Ayton is not a Top 5 center yet. He is a young good center with still some upside. The only thing you could argue elite IMO is opposing points in the paint. Ayton is a very good paint defender but that is only one aspect of defense. He is probably a little better than his rating for points in the paint because altering shots isn't really counted. So I give him huge kudos there.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

In a league with a dearth of good centers, all of the above makes my case for me. Good, but not even close to elite defender.

Ooh, I love this site! I'd definitely use it to make my entire argument. Let's see who they had as the best defender last season...

Players Defense | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring defense information for each player in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

Oh, of course! Michael Porter Jr.! Shut Down Steph Curry at #6, totally makes sense.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Agreed. Ayton is not a Top 5 center yet. He is a young good center with still some upside. The only thing you could argue elite IMO is points in the paint. Ayton is a very good paint defender but that is only one aspect of defense. He is probably a little better than his rating for points in the paint because altering shots isn't really counted.

Wrong. It's obviously Embiid and Jokic above him. You can't come up with 3 other C's that are clearly better.

You're totally wrong on his perimeter D.

 

[Covert Rain]

Ooh, I love this site! I'd definitely use it to make my entire argument. Let's see who they had as the best defender last season...

Players Defense | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring defense information for each player in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

Oh, of course! Michael Porter Jr.! Shut Down Steph Curry at #6, totally makes sense.

That's why you can't just look at Defensive Rating by itself. Also, look at the rest of that list.

Wrong. It's obviously Embiid and Jokic above him. You can't come up with 3 other C's that are clearly better.

You're totally wrong on his perimeter D.

Stats say otherwise. You can ignore them if you want. Also what did I say about his perimeter D? You think it's elite? OK. Can you show me stats that back it up? I have not seen any but I didn't look either.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I continue to think that you need to keep the player unless a KD/Lebron level player is our return. And it can't be an overwhelming or debilitating amount that we send in return.

They gain a long term asset and remove a LARGE if not LARGER salary from their books. We shorten our window but go hard for 2 more years tops.

Zion may be the only gamble I am willing to make. Otherwise it needs to be a sure thing.

 

[Chaplin]

Ayton's perimeter defense is pretty damn good considering how big he is and who he has to always switch on. His laziness hurts his rating, but he's really good. His complete terror of fouling someone is very apparent, especially when he's playing against younger guys.

The problem is that his offense is so bad and inconsistent it affects the rest of his game. EDIT: Not "bad" but definitely inconsistent and frustrating.

 

[Mainstreet]

I have no problem with Ayton's perimeter defense but when he extends his defense it frequently leaves a path to the basket for other players.

I'm not sure if it's the Suns defensive scheme or the inability of the other players to defend. Sometimes I wish Ayton could stay home more on defense.

 

[Chaplin]

I have no problem with Ayton's perimeter defense but when he extends his defense it frequently leaves a path to the basket.

I'm not sure if the Suns defensive scheme or the inability of the other players to defend. Sometimes I wish Ayton could stay home more on defense.

That's mainly because he doesn't have a defender behind him. Crowder can only do so much and he's very limited as a rim protector.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

That's not a good argument. Ayton was on him for 13 minutes compared to Bridges 40. Meaning the only time Ayton guarded him was during switches. Chris Paul was on him almost just as much. You can't draw any kind of conclusion about Ayton's defense in that matchup. It would be better to see how Ayton's "defensive per" matches up to others at his position.

The argument was that he was being abused on switches in that series and the numbers suggest that just isn't true. Holding Luka to 41% pretty much means he didn't get torched.

 

[Folster]

The problem is that his offense is so bad and inconsistent it affects the rest of his game. EDIT: Not "bad" but definitely inconsistent and frustrating.

Limited and overly reliant on other players is probably better descriptors. Although the hook he added to his repertoire was a pleasant surprise.

 

[Mainstreet]

That's mainly because he doesn't have a defender behind him. Crowder can only do so much and he's very limited as a rim protector.

Yeah, that's not on Ayton if he defends outside but no one comes over to protect the basket. Somebody has to switch.

The Mavericks guards were the primary culprits: Doncic and Brunson.

 

[Covert Rain]

The argument was that he was being abused on switches in that series and the numbers suggest that just isn't true. Holding Luka to 41% pretty much means he didn't get torched.

3% of the total minutes on one player is not a good sample size. Again, I have not look at his numbers overall, but I will.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

3% of the total minutes on one player is not a good sample size. Again, I have not look at his numbers overall, but I will.

Why attack Ayton when you're shooting 58% vs. Bridges and 55% vs. CP? Who would you go after?

 

[Covert Rain]

Why attack Ayton when you're shooting 58% vs. Bridges and 55% vs. CP? Who would you go after?

What does that have to do with anything? Your argument was look how good a defender he is because of what he did with Luka. The fact is the sample size is poor. He was barely matched up with Luka ever. Paul covered him as much as Ayton. The Point being it's a poor argument because it's a poor sample size (3%). Most smaller guys don't in general attack bigger centers.

I want to see how is overall DFG% matches up with his peers at his position and from what distances.

 

[Folster]

Why attack Ayton when you're shooting 58% vs. Bridges and 55% vs. CP? Who would you go after?

He hit some big shots on Ayton but those were contested step back 3's or long 2's, precisely the shots you want Luka taking and will live with if he makes them. He took Bridges and Paul down to the block and abused them.

I thought Bridges held his own on the perimeter against Luka, but was constantly getting run into screens and the Suns never adjusted to overplay and prevent the screen. Down on the block he got abuse though

 

[AzStevenCal]

I thought Bridges held his own on the perimeter against Luka, but was constantly getting run into screens and the Suns never adjusted to overplay and prevent the screen. Down on the block he got abuse though

Yep, he was constantly getting run into very physical screens and not once did I see Monty make an issue about it or a defensive adjustment to make them pay. Bridges is a cross between Superman and his alter ego, allowing him to be abused like that meant he spent most of his time as Clark Kent. It should be no surprise they wore him down.

 

[Covert Rain]

Please don't shoot the messenger. This is his stats compared to other starting Centers who played at least 48 games.

He is #5 in the NBA defending the 2 (At under <6ft he is #6. At <10ft #6. At >15ft #4).
He is #2 at defending 3 pointers.

So coupled this with the other stats:
Blocks (#7)
Overall defensive rating (#7)
Allowing second chance points (#17)
Blocks (#15)
Defensive Rebounds (#10),

I think you could make a solid case for Top 10 defender which is nothing to shrug at but still not Top 5. He would need to vastly improve his Allowing second chance points, Blocks and Defensive rebounds to crack the Top 5.

What is weird is that according to this he is better at defending further away at the basket then up close by a tad.

Overall, 2 Pointers

PLAYER	POSITION	GP	DFG%
Rudy Gobert	C	66	44.6
Jarrett Allen	C	56	45.3
Evan Mobley	C	69	47.3
Ivica Zubac	C	76	48.6
Deandre Ayton	C	58	48.7
Jakob Poeltl	C	67	50.1
Mo Bamba	C	69	50.1
Nikola Jokic	C	74	51.3
Nikola Vucevic	C	73	52.2
Jonas Valanciunas	C	74	52.2
Jusuf Nurkic	C	56	53
Clint Capela	C	73	53.6
Steven Adams	C	75	54.7

Overall, 3 Pointers

PLAYER	POSITION	GP	DFG%
Jarrett Allen	C	56	30.6
Deandre Ayton	C	58	32.4
Rudy Gobert	C	66	32.7
Mo Bamba	C	69	32.7
Steven Adams	C	75	33.5
Clint Capela	C	73	34.3
Jakob Poeltl	C	67	35.1
Nikola Jokic	C	74	36.1
Nikola Vucevic	C	73	36.1
Jonas Valanciunas	C	74	36.9
Ivica Zubac	C	76	40.7
Evan Mobley	C	69	40.8
Jusuf Nurkic	C	56	41.6

<6ft

PLAYER	POSITION	GP	DFG%
Jarrett Allen	C	56	48.6
Rudy Gobert	C	66	50.7
Evan Mobley	C	69	52.8
Jakob Poeltl	C	67	55.4
Ivica Zubac	C	76	56.7
Deandre Ayton	C	58	58
Mo Bamba	C	69	58.1
Steven Adams	C	75	60.1
Clint Capela	C	73	60.6
Nikola Jokic	C	74	61.6
Nikola Vucevic	C	73	63.3
Jusuf Nurkic	C	56	63.9
Jonas Valanciunas	C	74	64.5

<10ft

PLAYER	POSITION	GP	DFG%
Jarrett Allen	C	56	47.7
Rudy Gobert	C	66	48.6
Evan Mobley	C	69	50.1
Jakob Poeltl	C	67	52.5
Ivica Zubac	C	76	53
Deandre Ayton	C	58	54.6
Mo Bamba	C	69	54.8
Jusuf Nurkic	C	56	57
Clint Capela	C	73	57.1
Nikola Jokic	C	74	57.2
Steven Adams	C	75	57.8
Jonas Valanciunas	C	74	58.6
Nikola Vucevic	C	73	58.8

>15ft

PLAYER	POSITION	GP	DFG%
Khem Birch	C	28	27.1
Jarrett Allen	C	56	33.3
Mo Bamba	C	69	34.4
Deandre Ayton	C	58	35.5
Rudy Gobert	C	66	36.7
Nikola Vucevic	C	73	36.7
Nikola Jokic	C	74	36.8
Jonas Valanciunas	C	74	37.4
Jakob Poeltl	C	67	37.9
Dewayne Dedmon	C	15	38
Clint Capela	C	73	38.8
Evan Mobley	C	69	39.3
Steven Adams	C	75	39.9
Damian Jones	C	15	40.2
DeAndre Jordan	C	20	40.9
Ivica Zubac	C	76	41.4
Andre Drummond	C	36	42
Jusuf Nurkic	C	56	42.1

 

[GatorAZ]

Not sure if I’m reading between the lines on Gambo overhyping Jerami Grant.

 

[Mainstreet]

Not sure if I’m reading between the lines on Gambo overhyping Jerami Grant.

I like Jerami Grant but he is on an expiring contract and the salary doesn't quite fit unless bundled. I'd want more in return for Ayton.

 

[Folster]

Not sure if I’m reading between the lines on Gambo overhyping Jerami Grant.

If we must trade Ayton for Grant, I want Bagley included in a separate sign and trade deal. Go watch some Pistons highlights. He has the ability to put the ball on the floor and played well for them.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If we must trade Ayton for Grant, I want Bagley included in a separate sign and trade deal. Go watch some Pistons highlights. He has the ability to put the ball on the floor and played well for them.

I like Bagley a lot but I don't think we're going to be able to steal him from Detroit.

 

[Finito]

Not sure if I’m reading between the lines on Gambo overhyping Jerami Grant.

You cannot trade for Grant he’s gonna be a FA and is going to want to be paid. Your gonna be in the exact same position

He’s getting to be the most overrated player in the NBA.

 

[Finito]

Marvin Bagley?

You mean the guy who’s only played played more than 48 games once in his career?